dimreepr

Theresa May resigns

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1 hour ago, Strange said:

I don't know where the "predetermined time frame" comes from. The UK used to have a system when a government could call a general election whenever they wanted. That has changed with the Fixed Term Parliament Act, but the time between elections is still very variable. Theresa May called one 2 years after the previous one. 

In general, the most recent vote is more valid than earlier ones. 

In the case of Brexit, a second vote would not be on the same thing as the first one, so the issue of "more valid" (nor "keep voting forever") just doesn't arise. It is just a silly strawman put about by Leave campaigners (presumably because they are scared that any second vote would not go the way they want - hence the claim it is "not democratic").

 

Thank you for assigning the straw man to the leave campaigners, frankly my knowledge of the whole brexit thing is fairly limited because we’ve been having our own little nightmare here, Im sure you are more to date on all this.

47 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Democracy may be many things, but brexit is the result of lying and cheating.

Lying was writing on the side of a bus that we would  gain £350 million a week to spend on the NHS.

Cheating was not admitting that the bus cost money and should be included in the election budget.

 

If this had been a football match and someone had cheated, we would be demanding a rematch.

Shouldn't we hold politics to the same standards?

Didn’t know that, seems harsh and I agree with you.

27 minutes ago, zapatos said:

You are dancing around the point I am making.

Honestly I’m not. Maybe its just my ignorance of the subject.

23 minutes ago, studiot said:

 

 

No there was never a public vote to join.

The government of the day under Edward Heath decided to join and took us in.

There was a later referendum, heavily biased in its wording about remaining in. (1975)

The 2016 referendum was the first plain and simple in or out question and Cameron deserves credit for that simplicity.

Both official sides of that debate ran totally incompetent campaigns and many half truths, statemetns of wishful thinking or ignorance and outright lies were made.

This have never been unusual in British politics.

One such untruth was the statement

"The UK would be the first country to leave."

This is just not so., although I believed it until I found out that in fact Iceland had left many years earlier.

Another half truth was the idea that the European Union of 2016 was the same as the European Economic Community the UK joined in 1973.

It is nothing like.

The EU is an entirely different, non democratic political organisation. I have never been allowed to vote for its 'president' - unlike the USA.
It was created without democratic reference to its people during the time of Major.

As an oldster I can remember the days before the UK became a member of the EU.

Personally I cannot point to many benefits I have seen. Things were definitely better in 1965 than in 1975 or 1985 and I do not think they have improved since.

In particular I was promised the right to freely (ie without let or hindrance or question)  travel to other parts of the EEC/EU as though it were all one big country.
This has certainly never happened.

I still cannot 'pop over' to visit relatives in Rotterdam as easily as I can those in Rochester,
Without men with tommy guns demanding my papers and reason for visit and so on and so forth.
Of course the same applies when I come home.

Couple years ago I spoke to my Dad about this broadly, he was doing his PhD in economics at that time (late 70’s early 80’s) and his thesis was related. He layed out the whole story to me from which I can’t remember much right now besides that the Islanders were always outsiders as far as the EU and previously EWG (don’t know the English abreviation for that) is concerned.

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1 hour ago, studiot said:

The EU is an entirely different, non democratic political organisation.

Nonsense. Did you miss the fact we have just had elections? I have to assume that all you know about the EU comes from the Daily Mail or similar rag.

1 hour ago, studiot said:

I have never been allowed to vote for its 'president'

Most people have never voted for the prime minister of the UK, either. No one voted to make Theresa May PM (the same is true for about half the PMs in the last century). The president of the EU is nominated by elected representatives and then voted for by elected representatives.

Not very different from the PM. Apart from the fact that the PM is not voted for by either the general public nor elected representatives. 

1 hour ago, studiot said:

In particular I was promised the right to freely (ie without let or hindrance or question)  travel to other parts of the EEC/EU as though it were all one big country.
 This has certainly never happened.

That is because the UK decided not to join Schengen. Travel between most other countries is as free as that.

You can't blame a choice of the UK government on the EU. 

1 hour ago, studiot said:

Without men with tommy guns demanding my papers and reason for visit and so on and so forth.

I travel fairly frequently between the UK and Europe. I very rarely get stopped by men with guns. I can only remember two occasions in the last 3 or 4 years.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Strange said:

I very rarely get stopped by men with guns.

But you were stopped?

Once is once too many.

 

How many times have you been stopped on th M1 or M25 by men with guns?

23 minutes ago, Strange said:

That is because the UK decided not to join Schengen. Travel between most other countries is as free as that.

You can't blame a choice of the UK government on the EU. 

Schengen had not been 'invented' when I was promised that.
It was written into the original treaty Heath signed (but never enforced).
But yes, I have been pleasantly suprised how easy it is these days to travel between Ulster and Eire.
Long may that continue. There is no need of a border of any description.

Of course the border issue is another source of misinformation over the Brexit argument.
It is completely untrue that it would be the only 'free' border' between the EU and another state if only the politicians both in the UK and the EU would.

I remember well going into France with friends living in Switzerland (not in the EU) just to go to the supermarket.
There was no border in sight.
Again a visit from Geneva to Yviore (and back), for lunch
No visible border to be seen.

23 minutes ago, Strange said:

Most people have never voted for the prime minister of the UK, either. No one voted to make Theresa May PM (the same is true for about half the PMs in the last century). The president of the EU is nominated by elected representatives and then voted for by elected representatives.

Not very different from the PM. Apart from the fact that the PM is not voted for by either the general public nor elected representatives. 

 

But the powers and term of office are vastly different.

The EU is being dragged back to the Napoleonic system. A total anathama to anglo saxon virtues.

"No one voted to make Theresa May PM ", certainly not me, I never wanted her.

Edit It is hard to say where she was more incompetent. Her time at the Home Office, the remain campaign she was part of or the leave 'agreement' she didn't negotiate.

 

23 minutes ago, Strange said:

Nonsense. I have to assume that all you know about the EU comes from the Daily Mail or similar rag.

The only 'rag' I have ever subscribed to was the Saudi Gazette.
And a far better example of journalism that either of those you mention.

As to the insulting comment,

I knew it would end in tears when I obtained and went through the entire Maastricht agreement, some years ago now.

Do you know what it says?

Edited by studiot

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Any 'one time' electoral decision, that doesn't allow the electorate to change its mind afterwards, is commonly called a dictatorship.
Spare us all the political drama and have another referendum already.

We have enough drama on this side of the pond.

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1 hour ago, studiot said:

The EU is an entirely different, non democratic political organisation.

Because i usually vote for small parties i'm actually better represented in European parliament than i am in my 'own' `British parliament.

But i'd agree the EU is an unprecedented and daunting project . I'm just disappointed the older generation of British people won't allow the younger generation the opportunity to work on it. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, studiot said:

But you were stopped?

Once is once too many.

Why? Your democratically elected government chose to have it that way. Vote for a different party in future if you want the UK to join Schengen. Oh, sorry, too late. You will have men with guns checking your visa soon.

1 hour ago, studiot said:

Of course the border issue is another source of misinformation over the Brexit argument.
It is completely untrue that it would be the only 'free' border' between the EU and another state if only the politicians both in the UK and the EU would.

Nonsense.

1 hour ago, studiot said:

I remember well going into France with friends living in Switzerland (not in the EU) just to go to the supermarket.
There was no border in sight.
Again a visit from Geneva to Yviore (and back), for lunch
No visible border to be seen.

That is because Switzerland has a free-trade agreement with the EU. The UK could have had something similar but the government decided to rule it out. (Even though some moderate Leave advocates were in favour of it.)

This agreement allows some free movement of goods and people (the latter being the reason that the UK gov ruled it out - apparently driven by the racist popular press).

However, the claim, made by some people, that there is no visible border is just complete nonsense (for example, lots of idiotic Brexiter politicians and journalists have posted moronic stories about walking or skiing across the border, as if this were relevant).

Trucks and other commercial vehicles have to go through specific border crossings where there is a large amount of physical infrastructure, and there are often long queues. 

 

 

Edited by Strange
clarification, after studiot's objection

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

I'm just disappointed the older generation of British people won't allow the younger generation the opportunity to work on it. 

Unfortunately some of the younger generation want to do exactly what the worst of the older generation does.

Tell me what to think.

The Brexit referendum is the first and only opportunity I have ever had to say what I think.

Other than that I have only been offered a list of people with stated polices few to none of which I support.

Edited by studiot
correct spelling of 'have' and 'none'

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1 minute ago, studiot said:

Unfortunately some of the younger generation want to do exactly what the worst of the older generation does.

Tell me what to think.

The Brexit referendum is the first and only opportunity I have ever had to say what I think.

The irony is that so many have taken the results of the referendum to mean that exactly what the tiny majority voted for (whatever that was - it covered a wide range of possibilities) and the other half of the voters have to be completely ignored.

A moderate approach that was more like Switzerland or the EEA could have satisfied (reluctantly) people on both sides. But May's xenophobia made that impossible and positions have got increasingly polarised so that there is now no form of Brexit that will satisfy a majority. Although a second vote could find which was the least disliked.

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I have reported personal experiences only.

I do not like to be called a liar, especially not  by a moderator.

Post reported.

9 minutes ago, Strange said:

Why? Your democratically elected government chose to have it that way. Vote for a different party in future if you want the UK to join Schengen. Oh, sorry, too late. You will have men with guns checking your visa soon.

Nonsense.

That is because Switzerland has a free-trade agreement with the EU. The UK could have had something similar but the government decided to rule it out. (Even though some moderate Leave advocates were in favour of it.)

This agreement allows some free movement of goods and people (the latter being the reason that the UK gov ruled it out - apparently driven by the racist popular press).

However, the claim that there is no visible border is just complete nonsense (lots of idiotic Brexiter politicians and journalists have posted moronic stories about walking or skiing across the border, as if this were relevant).

Trucks and other commercial vehicles have to go through specific border crossings where there is a large amount of physical infrastructure, and there are often long queues. 

 

 

I have reported personal experiences only.

I do not like to be called a liar, especially not  by a moderator.

Post reported.

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13 minutes ago, studiot said:

I have reported personal experiences only.

I do not like to be called a liar, especially not  by a moderator.

Post reported.

I have reported personal experiences only.

I do not like to be called a liar, especially not  by a moderator.

Post reported.

!

Moderator Note

The only place “liar” had appeared is this post. Thus, nobody has called you a liar. Nobody has even claimed that you told a lie. You were challenged on the veracity of a statement. Those three situations are distinct from each other.

Bringing this up in the thread is off-topic, and further discussion along these lines, in this thread, would be hijacking.

 

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Gagging order received and understood.

 

Goodbye.

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Well this got ugly quick.

I could understand it if you guys were Democrats and Republicans.
But you Brits are supposed to be even tempered and calm...

Relax, things can't get much worse than they already are.

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52 minutes ago, studiot said:

I have reported personal experiences only.

I do not like to be called a liar, especially not  by a moderator.

Post reported.

I have clarified the wording in my post as no such implication was intended.

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

Well this got ugly quick.

I could understand it if you guys were Democrats and Republicans.
But you Brits are supposed to be even tempered and calm...

Relax, things can't get much worse than they already are.

Sadly, it has brought out the worst in those with extreme positions. And pushed more people to have extreme positions.

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Personal opinion:
The difference in discussion tone here in this thread, compared to what is much more common among the same set of members in other topics in our forum, serves as a little illustration how complex the discussed matters probably are to address and solve on a national and European level.

 

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3 hours ago, studiot said:

Both official sides of that debate ran totally incompetent campaigns and many half truths, statemetns of wishful thinking or ignorance and outright lies were made.

Please cite the outright lies of the Remain campaign.

Also, do you recognise just how much the Leave campaign cheated?
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/referendums-to-keep/media-statement-vote-leave

Lots of people are talking about Boris as the next PM.

It is entirely possible that he will be prosecuted.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/14/case-boris-johnson-brexit-lies-will-public-hearing-eu-election-day-9540055/

 

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2 hours ago, studiot said:

I do not like to be called a liar, especially not  by a moderator.

As far as I can see, there has only been one accusation of lying in this thread: 

3 hours ago, studiot said:

Both official sides of that debate ran totally incompetent campaigns and many half truths, statemetns of wishful thinking or ignorance and outright lies were made.

 

On 5/24/2019 at 2:34 PM, dimreepr said:

Any new leader might find it hard to leave the EU without a deal, as several of the candidates are currently promising. This is because the majority in Parliament appear to be opposed to that because of the serious economic impacts. If they then had to request another extension (or even revoke Article 50) it would be very bad for their supposed "tough" approach to the EU. Normally, one might expect that to seriously damage their ability to lead the party, but we have seen that normal expectations don't really apply any more.

Another possible outcome is that the new leader of the Conservative party is unable to form a government and so a general election has to be called. That just wastes even more time before the Brexit deadline. It seems likely that the Conservative party would do very badly in an election. As would Labour. It is hard to see which party would have a majority, or even be able to form a ruling coalition.

So I certainly can't see a scenario that ends well!

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, studiot said:

Gagging order received and understood.

 

Goodbye.

The world is right now too full of people willing to walk away, isolate, and tribalize when instead coming together and reminding each other of our shared humanity would be far better.

No matter our politics, we still agree on at least 95% of what truly matters in life. 

Please don’t let the other 5% dictate the entirety of your future behavior.

The only thing that drives out the darkness is light. The only thing that stops our continued separation is coming together. The only way to have fewer enemies is to have more friends.

I’m sorry if I’ve played any role in offending you. I’m grateful you shared your opinion. I value your contributions here.

I hope your goodbye was less of a farewell and more of a “until I see you next time.”

I hope you know I’m sincere and my words authentic. 

Edited by iNow

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Posted (edited)

The UK is not Greece and will manage whatever the Brexit outcome will really come to. This weekend in Poland the right wing Law & Justice party got majority of seats in the EU parliament vote. Always critical of the EU Marine Le Pen is on top in France, Italy has euro skeptics come into power too same many other EU countries. The Acta legislation sure didnt help with getting the younger generation onto the EU side,  theres a good chance the EU will look a lot differently from what it looks now when it comes to Brexit/no Brexit. I think the EU has no chance of survival in its curent state and the UK, France, Italy and others will probably manage a lot better than us here left for Putin to chew on us (Trump will turn his head quicker than I can say „Huge!”)

Edited by koti

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According to most analysts and commentators I've read, populists and nationalist fell short of expectations. That the EU is going to dissolve I've been hearing for a few decades now and to me its more like other, ever popular, apocalyptic scenarios so this is about as much I am willing to say on it.

Everyone will manage without the EU that is not the question. Question is, as its always been, if benefits outweigh downsides. While ago I've read let's say unconventional commentary about the EU and Brexit:

Europe’s dangerous creation myth
In Western Europe, nationalism isn’t conservative — it’s radical.

 
 
 
 
 
4
Quote

 

Perhaps most fundamentally, the EU has created a framework in which European states can exist. The modern European state was conceived as the core of an empire. It has survived as an element of an integration project. In most Western European cases, as in the United Kingdom, there has never been a moment where a nation-state has had to make it on its own.

Until now, perhaps. The case for Brexit rests on the premise that there is a British nation-state lying in wait, if you peel back the layers of European integration and revert back to a previous state of “independence.” Yet there has never been such a thing. The historical process of the loss of empire coincided in time with the historical process of European integration, creating the Britain that exists today.

The notion that a British nation-state can be created in the 21st century is thus not conservative, but radical. British society stands before a leap into an unexamined future.

Europe has prevented the dissolution of the British Empire from reaching the British Isles. Should Brexit take place, there will likely be no Britain, since Scotland and Northern Ireland will depart, but rather an England. This England will not have "exited" anything. English people will continue to negotiate with the EU, from weakness rather than strength.

Brexiteers imagine that England will somehow revive a British Empire. The options are indeed integration on the one hand and empire on the other, but the empires in question are no longer British. The EU insulates its citizens from the empires of today: China, America, Russia; Amazon, Google, Facebook. Should Brexit take place, today's Brexiteers will be tomorrow's agents of foreign empire. Some of them already are.

The historical function of the EU is to gather together the fragments of failed European empires. To forget this basic historical truth, as Europeans — and Britons in particular — have managed to do, is to risk the very form of life that they take for granted.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-creation-project-myth-history-nation-state/

 

 

 

For some reason, I can't edit the above so its gonna stay that I guess. 

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37 minutes ago, tuco said:

According to most analysts and commentators I've read, populists and nationalist fell short of expectations.

Although Farago is claiming a victory because he won most seats, his share of the vote only increased by 7%. The other extremist parties gained no seats.

The Brexit parties overall lost nearly 20% of their votes, while the pro-remain parties gained nearly 20%

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, studiot said:

I remember well going into France with friends living in Switzerland (not in the EU) just to go to the supermarket.
There was no border in sight.

On a related note.
https://www.indy100.com/article/quentin-letts-twitter-swiss-border-brexit-skiing-switzerland-schengen-free-movement-8784326

Anyway,
I'm delighted to see the fall in support of Brexit.
At the referendum they had 52% of a 72% turnout which meant that 37% of the population voted for them.

In the MEP elections they got about 32% of a roughly 40% turnout so that's 12.8%
Roughly a third as many voted for the Brexit party this time as voted for brexit at the referendum.

If you look at the other parties, the picture is the same. Pro remain parties got more votes than pro leave.

And, the icing on the cake is that "Tommy Robinson" lost his deposit.

Now, let's see how the media portrays this swing to remain.

 

 

MEP.JPG

Edited by John Cuthber

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

On a related note.
https://www.indy100.com/article/quentin-letts-twitter-swiss-border-brexit-skiing-switzerland-schengen-free-movement-8784326

Anyway,
I'm delighted to see the fall in support of Brexit.
At the referendum they had 52% of a 72% turnout which meant that 37% of the population voted for them.

In the MEP elections they got about 32% of a roughly 40% turnout so that's 12.8%
Roughly a third as many voted for the Brexit party this time as voted for brexit at the referendum.

If you look at the other parties, the picture is the same. Pro remain parties got more votes than pro leave.

And, the icing on the cake is that "Tommy Robinson" lost his deposit.

Now, let's see how the media portrays this swing to remain.

 

 

MEP.JPG

 Considering Farage has just cobbled that party together, the result is pretty impressive against all long-established parties even if you cut off the ukip section. I've got to say, Change party has got the most moronic name considering they want to keep things the same. Also, they haven't added the softer Brexit element of the Conservatives which would push it nearer 50%, so it is roughly still in parity with the original result... no wild swings either way. Try looking at it with a scientist's eye.

Edited by StringJunky

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17 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Considering Farage has just cobbled that party together, the result is pretty impressive against all long-established parties even if you cut off the ukip section.

He has gained about 7% at a time when he (and Brexit) is all over the news. So I find that pretty unimpressive. People are not voting for a party or even a policy (he has no manifesto) but for a personality with a slogan.

The pro-Remain parties gained about 20% in the few weeks since the govt finally conceded that the election had to take place. That is impressive.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Strange said:

He has gained about 7% at a time when he (and Brexit) is all over the news. So I find that pretty unimpressive. People are not voting for a party or even a policy (he has no manifesto) but for a personality with a slogan.

This is true but he has only one objective.

 

Edited by StringJunky

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9 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

 Considering Farage has just cobbled that party together, the result is pretty impressive against all long-established parties even if you cut off the ukip section. I've got to say, Change party has got the most moronic name considering they want to keep things the same. Also, they haven't added the softer Brexit element of the Conservatives which would push it nearer 50%, so it is roughly still in parity with the original result... no wild swings either way. Try looking at it with a scientist's eye.

Farage has never really gone away and has always represented leave (in no uncertain terms) so I'm not sure why the haste of the set up is relevant. 

But that's not the problem, the problem is, the media has created an almost perfect polarisation of our society, which automatically leads to confrontation, and away from consideration; it doesn't matter who wins, they other side will fight on; "no compromise, no prisoners" undoubtedly on their lips. 

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