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Itoero

Can you believe in evolution and in god?

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Yes it is time to believe in both evolution and evolution of God.

The Bible proves even God evolved over time.

From sending a Giant  flood to destroy the world to sending Jesus to save the world.

Edited by Harikrish
Fixed typo

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5 hours ago, Harikrish said:

The Bible proves even God evolved over time.

From sending a Giant  flood to destroy the world to sending Jesus to save the world.

The part of the flood and the parts about Jesus simply had different authors and were made up/written in a different time period.

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8 hours ago, Harikrish said:

Yes it is time to believe in both evolution and evolution of God.

The Bible proves even God evolved over time.

From sending a Giant  flood to destroy the world to sending Jesus to save the world.

Whilst I don't quite agree with you, the evolution of God is an interesting idea that does not deserve minus points IMHO so +1 to compensate.

Bender, I don't see it is relevant who wrote the parts about sending the flood or Jesus, or any other part for that matter.
God is supposedly a long lived being to say the least of it! So no one human could write it all.

Harikrish, just because it was 'written' in the 'Bible' does not prove anything.

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8 hours ago, Harikrish said:

The Bible proves even God evolved over time.

The bible says that god is unchanging.  Is that bit wrong as well?  

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20 minutes ago, DrP said:

The bible says that god is unchanging.  Is that bit wrong as well?  

Yes the Bible contains many self contradictions, where one passage contradicts another.

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20 minutes ago, studiot said:

Yes the Bible contains many self contradictions, where one passage contradicts another.

Which is my argument in this thread  -  you can believe in GOD and evolution....  but not the bible and evolution.   If you DO believe the bible/god of the bible AND evolution then you have contradicted yourself somewhere along the way or haven't understood the bible as it is written or are just lying to yourself.

  

 

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19 hours ago, iNow said:

Nope, hence the impasse and suggestion of moved goalposts / evasion / willful ignorance

People that believe in  theistic evolution/progressive creation believe God(=Ghost)) plays a role in evolution.  I gave several links to prove this. Why do you people deny this?

 

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7 minutes ago, Itoero said:

People that believe in  theistic evolution/progressive creation believe God(=Ghost)) plays a role in evolution.  I gave several links to prove this. Why do you people deny this?

 

I thought the concensus (here) was that the two are not mutually exclusive. That is certainly my view.

However since there are two independent propositions conjoined there are at least five possibilities.

Both are believed

Neither are believed

One is believed

The other is believed.

Some other view. This is my view since I don't care about God and I further think that evolution is neither complete nor all encompassing.

That of course ignores the semantic conflict between the concepts of belief and the scientific method insofar as it is possible to 'believe' in evolution.

 

I further consider it likely that humanity will divide into five camps represented by these divisions.

 

Edited by studiot

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13 hours ago, Strange said:

Agreed.

BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. (It's your thread, so you should know this.)

Yes it is.  People that deny abiogenesis do that because they believe in God. People that don't think nature can form the variation of species do  this because they believe in God. God is a character in a book, the bible.

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40 minutes ago, Itoero said:

Yes it is. 

Are you actually incapable of logical thought? Do you really not understand why this is irrelevant?

Quote

People that deny abiogenesis do that because they believe in God. People that don't think nature can form the variation of species do  this because they believe in God.

Some do that because of their religious beliefs. Some do it for other reasons.

But, to try and stick to the topic of the thread (the thread that you started but don't seem to understand) not everyone who believes in a god denies these things.

So to summarise the logical possibilities:


              |   Accept   |     Deny 
              | Evolution  |  Evolution
            ----------------------------
              |            |
Religious     |     A      |     B
              |            |
            ----------------------------
              |            |
Not religious |     C      |     D
              |            |

The thread is about the people in A, while you insist on talking about B instead. The fact there are people in B doesn't stop there being people in A (in fact, guess what, it is totally irrelevant).

(And of course there are people in C and D as well.)

Perhaps you should ask the mods to change the thread title to "I'd like to bitch about religious people again"

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6 minutes ago, Strange said:
1 hour ago, Itoero said:

 

Are you actually incapable of logical thought? Do you really not understand why this is irrelevant?

You don't seem to understand. The denial of abiogenesis is for  Christians (that deny abiogenesis) causal correlated to the belief in god. A god means most of the times  a personal god,  a deity who can be related to as a person. I'm pretty sure all people that believe in such a god invent some cosmology  related evidence. This evidence is for them causal correlated to the belief in God.  So when I ask 'Can you believe in evolution and in God' I basically means 'Can you believe in evolution and in the 'evidence' that makes people believe in God'.

It's not as simplistic as that 'diagram' shows.

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10 minutes ago, Itoero said:

You don't seem to understand. The denial of abiogenesis is for  Christians (that deny abiogenesis) causal correlated to the belief in god. A god means most of the times  a personal god,  a deity who can be related to as a person. I'm pretty sure all people that believe in such a god invent some cosmology  related evidence. This evidence is for them causal correlated to the belief in God.  So when I ask 'Can you believe in evolution and in God' I basically means 'Can you believe in evolution and in the 'evidence' that makes people believe in God'.

It's not as simplistic as that 'diagram' shows.

Well maybe for some Christians, but not all.

I can remember being taught (in school no less) the points of agreement between the flow of the theory of evolution and the history of general events (ie specialist Jewish 'history' aside) in the Bible. There are many, although there are also differences and outright oppositions.

Is there some good reason why you refuse to discuss my points?

Should I report this?

I also commented that believe is the wrong word to apply to evolution.

Notice that Strange used the words 'accept' evolution.

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6 hours ago, DrP said:

The bible says that god is unchanging.  Is that bit wrong as well?  

There are 66 books written by different authors that make up the Bible. It was written at a time when certain beliefs about God were immutable.

But we know scriptures tell us God created man in his own image._52867843_evolution.jpg

Do you think God remained a chimp, or like man evolved?

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1 hour ago, Itoero said:

The denial of abiogenesis is for  Christians (that deny abiogenesis) causal correlated to the belief in god.

Not really.

All (well, nearly all) Christians believe in God. Only a small number of them deny the reality of evolution. 

There are also people who deny or dispute evolution even though they don't believe in god.

So there is no obvious causal relationship between a belief in god and denying evolution.

1 hour ago, Itoero said:

I'm pretty sure all people that believe in such a god invent some cosmology  related evidence.

Your personal beliefs are not really relevant.

1 hour ago, Itoero said:

So when I ask 'Can you believe in evolution and in God' I basically means 'Can you believe in evolution and in the 'evidence' that makes people believe in God'.

OF COURSE. Because people do. 

1 hour ago, Itoero said:

It's not as simplistic as that 'diagram' shows.

Why not?

Does it need another box labelled E = Itoero's irrational hatred of religion.

I think it might be time to ask the mods to close this thread as you have the answer to your question and now you are just using it as a platform for your bigotry.

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6 hours ago, studiot said:

Whilst I don't quite agree with you, the evolution of God is an interesting idea that does not deserve minus points IMHO so +1 to compensate.

Bender, I don't see it is relevant who wrote the parts about sending the flood or Jesus, or any other part for that matter.
God is supposedly a long lived being to say the least of it! So no one human could write it all.

Harikrish, just because it was 'written' in the 'Bible' does not prove anything.

The bible is believed by more people than the people who take Darwin seriously. The only problem with this religiousity is the rigid belief in the immutability of God. But scriptures can be used  to prove the rational behind them need not be static.

For example scriptures tell us God created man in his own image.

 

_52867843_evolution.jpg

Do you think God remained a chimp, or like man God too evolved?

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3 minutes ago, Harikrish said:

The bible is believed by more people than the people who take Darwin seriously.

What would be your point? The number of people who believe something is meaningless as to its veracity... 

 

3 minutes ago, Harikrish said:

The only problem with this religiousity is the rigid belief in the immutability of God. But scriptures can be used  to prove the rational behind them need not be static.

For example scriptures tell us God created man in his own image.

 

_52867843_evolution.jpg

Do you think God remained a chimp, or like man God too evolved?

Reality tells us that man created god in his own image and yes man evolved... 

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3 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Reality tells us that man created god in his own image and yes man evolved... 

And so has god.

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Just now, Strange said:

And so has god.

Yup for sure.. 

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31 minutes ago, Harikrish said:

There are 66 books written by different authors that make up the Bible. It was written at a time when certain beliefs about God were immutable.

But we know scriptures tell us God created man in his own image._52867843_evolution.jpg

Do you think God remained a chimp, or like man evolved?

 

Although I like the idea and I haven't heard of it before....  it is just the 'religious' or 'those that believe in god' moving the goalposts again imo.  It's a version of the god of the gaps argument....  the more we learn about nature and reality the more we have to redefine god...  and the gaps in our knowledge are getting smaller and smaller...  and so is this god of the bible/gaps. 

16 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Reality tells us that man created god in his own image and yes man evolved... 

^

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On ‎8‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 4:59 PM, Strange said:

ot really.

All (well, nearly all) Christians believe in God. Only a small number of them deny the reality of evolution. 

There are also people who deny or dispute evolution even though they don't believe in god.

So there is no obvious causal relationship between a belief in god and denying evolution.

Oink?? I talk about christians  that deny abiogenesis because they believe in God and you reply by talking about Evolution?

If people acknowledge  evolution than that doesn't mean they acknowledge all scientific evidence concerning evolution.

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2 hours ago, Itoero said:

I talk about christians  that deny abiogenesis because they believe in God and you reply by talking about Evolution?

Well, if you want to keep moving the goalposts and making logically incoherent arguments, I'm out.

Just a reminder of what you asked, as you seem to have forgotten:

On 28/07/2018 at 10:16 PM, Itoero said:

Can you believe in evolution and in god?

You have gone off on all sorts of tangents since then. As far as I can tell, just because you want yet another thread to display your ignorant bigotry.

I think I'll just put you on ignore. You clearly have nothing useful to contribute.

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Of course you can believe in both god and evolution. You can believe anything you want. You could believe that invisible goblins made the universe out of magic pixie dust. That's how belief works: It allows anything.

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It's probably all been said, but the way I look at it is yes, you can believe anything you want, in theory. But in reality, the vast majority of people are MADE to believe in God, by being indoctrinated from a very young age. And that's what I hate about religion. Not so much the silliness of it, or all the wasted praising and money wasted. It's the insidious compulsion by indoctrination.

I think it's false to argue that people have a choice, once they grow up. For most, that choice has been removed by the indoctrination process. They THINK they are choosing to believe. But they're not. 

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4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

It's probably all been said, but the way I look at it is yes, you can believe anything you want, in theory. But in reality, the vast majority of people are MADE to believe in God, by being indoctrinated from a very young age. And that's what I hate about religion. Not so much the silliness of it, or all the wasted praising and money wasted. It's the insidious compulsion by indoctrination.

I think it's false to argue that people have a choice, once they grow up. For most, that choice has been removed by the indoctrination process. They THINK they are choosing to believe. But they're not. 

that seems rather judgmental...

if kids didn't disagree with their elder's cultures would never evolve.

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8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

that seems rather judgmental...

if kids didn't disagree with their elder's cultures would never evolve.

The proof is out there in their billions. Kids of muslims grow up muslim. Kids of Christians grow up Christian. What better proof is there than that?

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