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Itoero

Can you believe in evolution and in god?

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3 minutes ago, mistermack said:

The proof is out there in their billions. Kids of muslims grow up muslim. Kids of Christians grow up Christian. What better proof is there than that?

really https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon and how many others are just happy to go with the flow because it doesn't matter to them?  

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5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

really https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon and how many others are just happy to go with the flow because it doesn't matter to them?  

It's like a virus. Some get it worse than others. I know several people who don't really believe, and just "go with the flow" but they still indoctrinate their kids. Or agree to them being indoctrinated. And of course, going with the flow usually coincides with a mild level of indoctrination. The stronger the indoctrination, the stronger the beliefs. On average.

That's why the Muzzies get their kids reciting the Koran over and over and learning it by heart. It works, and sticks for life.

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1 minute ago, mistermack said:

It's like a virus. Some get it worse than others. I know several people who don't really believe, and just "go with the flow" but they still indoctrinate their kids. Or agree to them being indoctrinated. And of course, going with the flow usually coincides with a mild level of indoctrination. The stronger the indoctrination, the stronger the beliefs. On average.

That's why the Muzzies get their kids reciting the Koran over and over and learning it by heart. It works, and sticks for life.

Ahh well, that's not at all judgemental, who are you to decide what people are allowed to think.

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Just now, dimreepr said:

Ahh well, that's not at all judgemental, who are you to decide what people are allowed to think.

I'm against indoctrination. I'm in favour of people deciding for themselves. That's the maximum freedom available, so yes, you could say I'm in favour of forcing people to make their own choice. That's nit picking though.  It's the absolute minimum of compulsion. There is nothing lower available.

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Just now, mistermack said:

I'm against indoctrination. I'm in favour of people deciding for themselves. That's the maximum freedom available, so yes, you could say I'm in favour of forcing people to make their own choice. That's nit picking though.  It's the absolute minimum of compulsion. There is nothing lower available.

What's so wrong with teaching kids to forgive, tolerate, be charitable etc... Besides, they have to be taught first or is teaching somehow different?

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7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What's so wrong with teaching kids to forgive, tolerate, be charitable etc... Besides, they have to be taught first or is teaching somehow different?

Teaching them these things can only originate with a god is the problem and kids are born with a better sense of right and wrong than most of us give them credit for. They are more likely to learn how to be intolerant of people who do not share a belief in "their" god than to simply learn intolerance... 

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8 hours ago, mistermack said:

The proof is out there in their billions. Kids of muslims grow up muslim. Kids of Christians grow up Christian. What better proof is there than that?

Kids of English speakers grow up speaking English. Kids of Chinese speakers grow up speaking Chinese(*).

You say it as if it must, inherently, be a bad thing.

(Apologies to those who realise there is no such language as "Chinese"!)

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14 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Teaching them these things can only originate with a god is the problem and kids are born with a better sense of right and wrong than most of us give them credit for. They are more likely to learn how to be intolerant of people who do not share a belief in "their" god than to simply learn intolerance... 

 

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23 hours ago, mistermack said:

Not so much the silliness of it

Religion is sadly anything but simple, because it's an extremely effective control mechanism.

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2 minutes ago, Thorham said:

Religion is sadly anything but simple, because it's an extremely effective control mechanism.

Sos communism...  

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14 hours ago, Strange said:

Kids of English speakers grow up speaking English. Kids of Chinese speakers grow up speaking Chinese(*).

You say it as if it must, inherently, be a bad thing.

I don't think so. If I criticise the teaching of religion, it doesn't follow that I'm saying all teaching is bad. I don't see how you could make that jump. I'm singling out religion, because it's wrong to teach a flimsy belief as a fact, just because that's what your parents did to you. There's nothing wrong with teaching kids known facts about religion. I just think it's wrong to force unreasoning faith down their throats. 

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3 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I don't think so. If I criticise the teaching of religion, it doesn't follow that I'm saying all teaching is bad. I don't see how you could make that jump. I'm singling out religion, because it's wrong to teach a flimsy belief as a fact, just because that's what your parents did to you. There's nothing wrong with teaching kids known facts about religion. I just think it's wrong to force unreasoning faith down their throats. 

That is what I meant. You assume/assert that teaching religion is inherently wrong. 

But as far as I can tell, you only think it is bad because you are opposed to religion. 

One could argue that most local cultural practices (morality, ethics, etiquette, etc) are “flimsy beliefs”; they certainly aren’t based on facts.  What is considered good in one country could be offensive in another. Should those things be “forced down children’s throats”? (To use your emotive language)

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1 hour ago, Strange said:

That is what I meant. You assume/assert that teaching religion is inherently wrong. 

But as far as I can tell, you only think it is bad because you are opposed to religion. 

One could argue that most local cultural practices (morality, ethics, etiquette, etc) are “flimsy beliefs”; they certainly aren’t based on facts.  What is considered good in one country could be offensive in another. Should those things be “forced down children’s throats”? (To use your emotive language)

I can't believe that you can't see any difference. It's a very contrived stance. Would Christians or Muslims equate their religions with morality, ethics, and etiquette? Of course not. They profess it as a profound belief about the nature of existence, and "who" they owe their existence to. 

I'm not opposed to religion, if people choose to believe freely. I think I've made it clear that it's the compulsion, through indoctrination, that I'm arguing against. 

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5 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Would Christians or Muslims equate their religions with morality, ethics, and etiquette?

Of course. They (generally) think that their religion is the source these things.

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2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Of course. They (generally) think that their religion is the source these things.

I think they would soon object, if you suggested that they keep those bits, and stop indoctrinating the kids with the god bit. You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. Who seriously equates teaching of religion with teaching of morals? It's comparing mountains to sand castles.

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8 minutes ago, mistermack said:

  I'm not opposed to religion, if people choose to believe freely. I think I've made it clear that it's the compulsion, through indoctrination, that I'm arguing against. 

1
2 hours ago, mistermack said:

I'm singling out religion

Enough said...  

 

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2 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I think they would soon object, if you suggested that they keep those bits, and stop indoctrinating the kids with the god bit.

Exactly my point. Who are you to tell them which parts of their culture (language, stories, myths, legends, traditions, dress, morals, habits) they can keep and which they can't.

4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Who seriously equates teaching of religion with teaching of morals?

Yes. It is something we pick up as children. It gets ingrained as part of our culture and personality in a very deep way.

Maybe you have never lived in a country where people do things differently. I have seen people from Europe and America get really angry and say "How dare they do that!" just because they have come across a different mode of behaviour.

 

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You can try to muddy the water all you like. I've made it clear what I object to, and why. And it's the compulsory belief in some great woo woo man in the sky, without any evidence.

Dig up some real evidence, and I'll happily change my mind. 

Who am I to tell people what to do? Nobody. I'm allowed to write my opinions in an online forum though. I'm just arguing for freedom of thought. If you're in favour of enforced thought through indoctrination, that's sad, but you have the right to say so, just like me.

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1 minute ago, mistermack said:

I'm just arguing for freedom of thought.

Nope, you just want people to think what you do... Is that teaching?    

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12 minutes ago, mistermack said:

And it's the compulsory belief in some great woo woo man in the sky, without any evidence.

Thats not at all a subjective opinion based on prejudice, then.

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20 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

I guess we`ll have to agree to disagree.  We hold to different realities.  Each for our own good reasons.  Someday we may see eye to eye, or may not, at least in this world in which there is so much to disagree on.

You keep saying you're not a science denier, but this is a basic biological classification. Study up on hominids if you're interested in learning something. This has NOTHING to do with religion at all, it's not a faith-based belief, it's a system of classification that's based on trustworthy observation derived from countless genetic experiments.

I've probably said it already in this thread, but if you actually study evolution and the theory that explains it, you'll come to realize there's no way to stop the process of evolution from happening. If you think you can, your reality is wrong.

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Evolution depends on three things:

  • Variation in a population 
  • Those variations being heritable
  • The variations having a differential effect on survival and reproductive success 

We know (from fairly trivial observation) that all three exist. And we also now know the mechanism. So it would actually take divine intervention to stop evolution happening 

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I said in the OP I mean evolution that started at the big bang, not only the biological evolution on this Earth.

 

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5 minutes ago, Itoero said:

I said in the OP I mean evolution that started at the big bang, not only the biological evolution on this Earth.

Might be more precise to call it cosmological evolution, or even better... astrophysics.

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18 minutes ago, Strange said:

Evolution depends on three things:

  • Variation in a population 
  • Those variations being heritable
  • The variations having a differential effect on survival and reproductive success 

We know (from fairly trivial observation) that all three exist. And we also now know the mechanism. So it would actually take divine intervention to stop evolution happening 

Yeh, well put. Evolution is now so well understood and verified that it's almost on a par with physics or chemistry. There's more to be learned, but no prospect at all of it ever being ditched. Can you believe in evolution and god? Of course you can. You can believe in evolution and two gods. Or ten gods. There are probably people out there who believe in evolution, and creation by god. So of course people can believe in evolution and god. 

I can't. I'd struggle to believe in god, even if evolution hadn't been worked out. I'd still want to see proper evidence. I suppose the existence of APPARENT design in nature might be hard to get past. But there were plenty of atheists before Darwin. Gradual evolution had been proposed, but not the mechanism. Maybe I would have been one, maybe not. Darwin and Wallace made things easy. 

I

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