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Can you believe in evolution and in god?

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Belief in evolution and God is possible.

I'm not so sure about belief in evidence and God.

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I wonder sometimes if there are more atheists who see a contradiction between the bible and evolution. 

Most (all?) religious people don’t accept everything in the bible and don’t take everything literally. Even those who do take some parts literally have their reasons for rejecting other parts. 

To be honest, I suspect most don’t even think about very deeply. 

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7 hours ago, zapatos said:

I'm wondering why the Catholic Church says they have no problem with Evolution. Do you think maybe because they don't take the Bible literally? They certainly 'believe' in the Bible.

Because they take the god of the gaps and don't care that the gaps are closing. They don't really believe it - they assume there are things we don't understand. But the bible CLEARLY states it was 7 days...  if you start saying oh hold on, it doesn't actually mean 7 days, we need to interpret it to mean 7 billion years...  then they are lying to themselves imo. 

When they want to press a point it's 'but the bible says this...'    when you point out 'hold on - the bible says 'this' also, which is clearly untrue' you get, 'well you can't take it literally'.  If you can't take it 'literally' then you are left with a work of fiction.

25 minutes ago, Strange said:

Most (all?) religious people don’t accept everything in the bible and don’t take everything literally. Even those who do take some parts literally have their reasons for rejecting other parts. 

To be honest, I suspect most don’t even think about very deeply. 

 You can't do that with a book and claim it as the unfailable word of god. It is a work of fiction.  There is some beauty and wisdom in it, sure. But a fictional work none the less. The only reason one can believe in both evolution and god (of the bible or religions from books) is to suspend their own reasoning and lie to themselves...  if they 'think about it very deeply' as you put it Strange, then it is obvious - it doesn't even need 'deep' thought it is so obvious....  Took me decades though! lol.

 

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1 hour ago, DrP said:

You can't do that with a book and claim it as the unfailable word of god. It is a work of fiction. 

And yet they do. (*)

Apparently, you can't tell people what they should think! :)

 

(*) I am not going to try and explain / justify why some Christians think capital punishment is OK ("an eye for an eye") but don't at the same time follow the food laws. But they do. Even if you think they can't.

Edited by Strange

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35 minutes ago, Strange said:

And yet they do. (*)

Apparently, you can't tell people what they should think! :)

 

:) I know they DO....  but it is because, as you said before, they obviously don't think about it hard enough. They have come to just accept the contradictions as something not to worry about because that is what the book says or what their pastor has told them. They may well believe it and stick their fingers in their ears and ignore all of the evidence that points to the huge fucking elephants in the room that they are ignoring....  but it doesn't make them right about it. They are lying to themselves or just refusing to hear, acknowledge or look at the facts. 

 

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44 minutes ago, DrP said:

:) I know they DO....  but it is because, as you said before, they obviously don't think about it hard enough. They have come to just accept the contradictions as something not to worry about because that is what the book says or what their pastor has told them. They may well believe it and stick their fingers in their ears and ignore all of the evidence that points to the huge fucking elephants in the room that they are ignoring....  but it doesn't make them right about it. They are lying to themselves or just refusing to hear, acknowledge or look at the facts. 

 

Does it matter? 99% of them aren't asking you to do the same and I'm sure you'd enjoy puting those that try to the sword ;); being right doesn't always make your right.

Edited by dimreepr

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14 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Does it matter?

Does it matter? I want the world to be a better place and for us to move on as a race.  We cant do this when the majority of people are in cloud fucking cuckoo land and refuse to renounce their ridiculous superstitions or accept scientific facts because they believe some shit written in a 2000 year old book...  so, I guess it matters, yea.

Can I do anything about it? Probably not. 

 

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3 minutes ago, DrP said:

Does it matter? I want the world to be a better place and for us to move on as a race.  We cant do this when the majority of people are in cloud fucking cuckoo land and refuse to renounce their ridiculous superstitions or accept scientific facts because they believe some shit written in a 2000 year old book...  so, I guess it matters, yea.

2

Move on to what? Are you sure it's better?

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5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Move on to what?

Perhaps he refers to a world where facts inform conclusions instead of conclusions informing facts; where obvious nonsense stops receiving undue deference and is rightly dismissed.

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Are you sure it's better?

Depends on ones metric, but for society as a whole the answer is unassailably yes. 

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1 minute ago, iNow said:

Perhaps he refers to a world where facts inform conclusions instead of conclusions informing facts; where obvious nonsense stops receiving undue deference and is rightly dismissed.

Would that make everyone content/happy? The happiest person I know is content to sit at the bottom of the garden and wave at the fairies he can't see, I know which I'd prefer.

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1 hour ago, DrP said:

I know they DO....  but it is because, as you said before, they obviously don't think about it hard enough.

I don't believe that can be the (only) reason. A great many very thoughtful people (theologians, philosophers and, yes, even scientists) have varying views on the contents of the bible.

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31 minutes ago, iNow said:

Depends on ones metric, but for society as a whole the answer is unassailably yes. 

2

We aren't all capable of disseminating the facts from the fiction just look at the fake news phenomena; it just seems the wrong type of utopia to aim at.

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10 minutes ago, Strange said:

I don't believe that can be the (only) reason. A great many very thoughtful people (theologians, philosophers and, yes, even scientists) have varying views on the contents of the bible.

My own path was.  Evolution is not true the scientists have been tricked by the4 devilo...    to Evolution happened over 7 time periods that the bible called 7 days which could have been millions of years...  to we don't understand it, who knows?...  to well, I can't refute it anymore due to the overwhelming evidence, but I still believe anyway despite the facts in front of me because I love you god... to oh FFS this is ridiculous and as plain as the nose on my face.

You have to be true to your self.  They might say they believe it - but deep down they know something isn't quite right....  or they are just totally deluded like I used to be. This is just for evolution that we are discussing - let alone talking animals (although I believe them to be far smarter than humans give them credit for), TARDIS like boats, blind people getting new eyes, the lame walking, the dead rising etc... total rubbish that has zero supporting evidence.

 

20 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Would that make everyone content/happy?

Would that matter?  Is that our aim for humanity now, doesn't matter if half the world is starving or at war due to their backward beliefs because I am happy in my little dream world?  Fuck that - to quote someone who once said something: "Education, Education, Education"!

 

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13 minutes ago, DrP said:

Would that matter?  Is that our aim for humanity now, doesn't matter if half the world is starving or at war due to their backward beliefs because I am happy in my little dream world?  

 

So feed them, oh hang on isn't that one of the basic tenets of religion, charity?

13 minutes ago, DrP said:

Fuck that - to quote someone who once said something: "Education, Education, Education"!

A fine aim but that won't make everyone equally educated.

Hang on, I went to a C of E school where I was educated, just not smart enough for a doctorate. 

Edited by dimreepr

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7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

So feed them, oh hang on isn't that one of the basic tenets of religion, charity?

That's what we all want isn't it?  I see us getting there facing facts a lot quicker than if we continue to ignore evidences. It would require the right mix of socialism and capitalism  - don't ask me what the perfect way is, how could I know?

 

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

A fine aim but that won't make everyone equally educated.

Hang on, I went to a C of E school where I was educated, just not smart enough for a doctorate. 

You know you are smart enough and I think you know it ;-) - if I can do it then pretty much anyone can. I went to a C of E school too - I scraped into it from my junior school and only got in because one other kid pulled out and moved away otherwise I would have gone to the other school in my area with a rep for being very bad. It was just up the road from the council estate I lived on. I probably would not have gone to uni even if I had attended that school. You don't need a PhD to work out that the bible is fiction. As has been said above - there are many intelligent people that 'believe' still.

Do people need to be 'equally educated'? They just need to know what we, as a race of humans, have collectively come to accept as being factual and what we have come to find to be BS.

I see many people laughing at religion and saying it is crap for (what I think) are all the wrong reasons. They could do with a dose of church imo - to look for something and be a part of something greater than themselves...  to learn about selfless love - I do sympathise with your argument (from other threads) about religion having it's positives...  but it got too big and caused too many wars and suffering. I do not know the right way for the human race - we have many options ahead of us. I would like it to be based on fact and what we believe to be reality rather than fiction. Who cares what I think anyway? lol - have a nice day DR.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, DrP said:

That's what we all want isn't it?

Indeed, I just don't think there's a black and white (perfect) solution and religion takes up a great deal of the grey.

14 minutes ago, DrP said:

You know you are smart enough and I think you know it ;-)

I'm not saying I have no smarts, just not the requisite type of smarts. 

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2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Does it matter? 99% of them aren't asking you to do the same and I'm sure you'd enjoy puting those that try to the sword ;); being right doesn't always make your right.

Putting people to the sword for not believing is religions thing, the only thing that keeps Christians from renewing this little part of their "belief system" is secular law. Until christianity was gelded during the enlightenment not being a christian was a dangerous way to live... 

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Move on to what? Are you sure it's better?

Your beliefs rule your actions, believing in things that are true will result in actions that reflect reality, believing in things that are false leads to actions that reflect what you want to be true. When what you want to be true is dictated by by bigoted, misogynist, homophobic, murderous, genocidal,  bronze age goat herders.. I mean what could possibly go wrong? 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Would that make everyone content/happy? The happiest person I know is content to sit at the bottom of the garden and wave at the fairies he can't see, I know which I'd prefer.

Reality has no obligation to make anyone happy... 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

We aren't all capable of disseminating the facts from the fiction just look at the fake news phenomena; it just seems the wrong type of utopia to aim at.

Since this is being driven by the religious right maybe you should rethink this.. 

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, I just don't think there's a black and white (perfect) solution and religion takes up a great deal of the grey.

Religion is not about grey, religion is all about everything being black and white, no grey areas allowed! 

Quote

I'm not saying I have no smarts, just not the requisite type of smarts. 

What type of smarts would that be? 

Edited by Moontanman

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1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

Reality has no obligation to make anyone happy... 

Does that make things better?

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56 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

So feed them, oh hang on isn't that one of the basic tenets of religion, charity?

Used to be one of things I thought to be true, then the religious right reared its ugly mug and things haven't been exactly all rainbows and unicorns since.. 

56 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

A fine aim but that won't make everyone equally educated.

This is true but religion wants everyone to be equality uneducated about everything their religion disagrees with. 

56 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Hang on, I went to a C of E school where I was educated, just not smart enough for a doctorate. 

 

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Does that make things better?

Yes, in fact when your actions are determined by reality only then can you make decisions that can bring about a decent society.  

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1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

This is true but religion wants everyone to be equality uneducated about everything their religion disagrees with. 

Yet their education leads to my atheism.

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1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Yet their education leads to my atheism.

Well the religious right is doing it's best to change that problem here in the states... 

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1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

Well the religious right is doing it's best to change that problem here in the states... 

The Extremist of either side should be avoided. 

Spock wasn't always right.

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7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Spock wasn't always right.

But he was able to change his opinion when presented with evidence that contradicted his beliefs.

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Just now, DrP said:

But he was able to change his opinion when presented with evidence that contradicted his beliefs.

That's because he was half human.

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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

We aren't all capable of disseminating the facts from the fiction just look at the fake news phenomena

This is irrelevant to my point in response to your question about whether or not it would be better. I said, at a societal level, yes... Letting evidence inform our conclusions instead of the other way around and dismissing nonsense appropriately as such WOULD be better. This remains valid whether or not we mostly hairless apes are capable of doing it.

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