DrP

'Stupid Woman'

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24 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s sort of damned if you damned if you don’t, but I suspect this would’ve been even worse.

She’d have been pilloried has she shown weakness and misogynists across the world would have declared her a women too weak to run the country.

“How can she govern when she’s so easily distressed by words from members of parliament?”

Even women who support her would’ve likely been upset if she did this for it would play into the weak woman stereotype. 

I mean, not necessarily. Former Australian PM Julia Gillard’s misogyny speech comes to mind here. Granted, Corbyn and Tony Abbott are by no means the same brand of politician, so perhaps it have been more difficult to come down so strongly. Still, Gillard’s speech and the overwhelmingly positive global reactions it received in the aftermath at least demonstrates that it is possible to stand against these comments as a leader in parliament and not be railed against for being weak. 

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16 minutes ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

I mean, not necessarily. Former Australian PM Julia Gillard’s misogyny speech comes to mind here. Granted, Corbyn and Tony Abbott are by no means the same brand of politician, so perhaps it have been more difficult to come down so strongly. Still, Gillard’s speech and the overwhelmingly positive global reactions it received in the aftermath at least demonstrates that it is possible to stand against these comments as a leader in parliament and not be railed against for being weak. 

I don’t believe these are mutually exclusive, and perhaps you don’t mean to imply they are, but it reads a bit that way.

The world can be improving and with each day become more accepting/supportive of female equality whilst also seeing other segments of the population readily attacking women as being weak (especially after a woman says someone hurt her feelings or “distressed” her by saying “stupid woman”).

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I also think she would look stronger if she stood her ground.
( not that I think she doesn't )

You wouldn't have anyone talking to M Thatcher that way, and not getting an earful right back.

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2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

watch a lot of you tube, and there are a lot of advertisements like what he described.

The ads I see on YouTube are literally 5 seconds long, lol. Long ones you can just skip after 5 seconds. So I how no idea what they are about or what's being said. 

 

3 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

However it's a generalization of a gender, and something that isn't universal. So, according to your definitions it would be sexist either way, which I think was the implication.

What is my definition? 

3 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

in one area, the phrases "Stupid man" and "Stupid woman" are used all the time, are they both sexist?

Did I say Corbyn used it in a sexist manner? 

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Rather, if you go looking for sexism ( or racism, or any other kind of bigotry ) where there is none, you will find it, because it is a perceived offence, and you've already made up your mind that its there.

Swing both ways. If ones makes a habit of excusing bad behavior they tend to never see bad behavior for what it is. The whole thing is relative based on one's own culture and habits. Compared to Hilter I'd say David Duke is a pro equility hippie. 

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3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

 

Swing both ways. If ones makes a habit of excusing bad behavior they tend to never see bad behavior for what it is. The whole thing is relative based on one's own culture and habits. Compared to Hilter I'd say David Duke is a pro equility hippie. 

On the other hand, Looking for bad behaviour is expecting it. 

Just as looking for the best in people sets that expectation.

We create what we expect.

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37 minutes ago, naitche said:

On the other hand, Looking for bad behaviour is expecting it. 

Just as looking for the best in people sets that expectation.

We create what we expect.

Hence saying it swings both ways as opposed to one way of the other. 

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On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:31 AM, iNow said:

Stupid!

...Woman!!

There was no kind intent underlying either word choice. 

There is no charitable interpretation available here to anyone intellectually honest. 

There is no way on no planet in no universe that this outburst was intended to heal or bring coalitions together. 

It was an attack. Gender was used as a weapon. This type of contempt should be collectively condemned. 

Except that the comment was under his breath and turned away and never meant for any one to hear  -  they picked it up on camera and used lip readers and strung it out in the press for days.  Meanwhile - what the press did not cover, a man had died of starvation on the steps of parliament again as a result of government cuts and austerity. They did a fine job of covering that up by screaming blue murder about a total non incident to distract. Whatever. Roll on brexit and the Trump wars then...  no one cares about them as long as they are all PC about it. :rolleyes: 

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:50 PM, hypervalent_iodine said:

 I am not familiar with the use of stupid man as an insult at all, at least where I live.

Why do you think anyone would call you a stupid man? I, personally, have never heard the term 'stupid woman'...  not directed at me anyway.  I still don't see the crime in using the language to indicate whether you are talking about a man or a woman. I agree it shouldn't or doesn't matter - but in our language we make the distinction - it is just language. We can change it - but don't shoot people that use it until it has been officially changed and accepted and learnt by all.

 

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4 hours ago, DrP said:

Except that the comment was under his breath and turned away and never meant for any one to hear  -  they picked it up on camera and used lip readers and strung it out in the press for days.  Meanwhile - what the press did not cover, a man had died of starvation on the steps of parliament again as a result of government cuts and austerity. They did a fine job of covering that up by screaming blue murder about a total non incident to distract. Whatever. Roll on brexit and the Trump wars then...  no one cares about them as long as they are all PC about it. :rolleyes: 

Why do you think anyone would call you a stupid man? I, personally, have never heard the term 'stupid woman'...  not directed at me anyway.  I still don't see the crime in using the language to indicate whether you are talking about a man or a woman. I agree it shouldn't or doesn't matter - but in our language we make the distinction - it is just language. We can change it - but don't shoot people that use it until it has been officially changed and accepted and learnt by all.

 

 

If you care to read back, you’ll see I already responded to this exact criticism from you on page one.

 

On 21/12/2018 at 1:31 AM, hypervalent_iodine said:

 

I am talking about the phrase generally, since that is where the bulk of your questions were aimed at. I don’t live in the UK, and I have not looked at anything surrounding the issue you are referring to specifically. My question is why use the word woman in the first place? If it isn’t used to emphasise the initial insult (as it almost always is when that phrase is used), why use it at all? 

By my experience, I wasn’t talking about the comments I have had levelled at me. I was talking about how I use the phrase, how people around me use the phrase, and how you might see it used in media, on TV, etc. I disagree that “stupid man,” is as commonly used as, “stupid woman,” based on that. 

I agree that it is not always helpful to immediately vilify someone as sexist or a misogynist in cases like these, but only if it was the result of a lack of awareness. I also believe firmly in the power of apology, and that no one should be held eternally and irreversibly accountable for their mistakes. The way we use language matters, and it’s consequences are pervasive. It is important to have these discussions so that people might learn, and so the issues become embedded in society’s comprehension of the world we live in. 

 

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3 hours ago, DrP said:

Why do you think anyone would call you a stupid man? I, personally, have never heard the term 'stupid woman'...  not directed at me anyway.  I still don't see the crime in using the language to indicate whether you are talking about a man or a woman. I agree it shouldn't or doesn't matter - but in our language we make the distinction - it is just language. We can change it - but don't shoot people that use it until it has been officially changed and accepted and learnt by all.

The problem may be that gendered terms often have different meanings, even when used in similar contexts.

Saying "stupid man" sounds somewhat unnatural (to me). I think "stupid idiot" or similar is more likely to be used if talking about a man (perhaps because "male" is assumed in so much communication). And, as he was talking only to himself, the use of "woman" can't have been necessary to disambiguate who he was talking about so it must have been intended, as hypervalent says, to emphasise the insult. Calling a man "stupid idiot" for example says that he is stupid and, worse still, and idiot. So what does that tell us about "stupid woman"?

You only have to look at studies of the words used to describe men and women in business to realise that there is inbuilt prejudice and stereotyping in the language we use. For example, "he's strong" but "she's bossy". "He is ambitious" but "she is pushy" and so on.

how_it_works.png

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21 minutes ago, Strange said:

And, as he was talking only to himself, the use of "woman" can't have been necessary to disambiguate who he was talking about so it must have been intended, as hypervalent says, to emphasise the insult.

I thought he was whispering to an aid?

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3 hours ago, DrP said:

Except that the comment was under his breath and turned away and never meant for any one to hear 

This implies to me only that he consciously KNEW it was insulting and wrong and was seeking to prevent the ostracization and social umbrage that was certain to follow had he spoken more loudly such that others could hear.

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19 minutes ago, Strange said:

how_it_works.png

...and a third party would say - 'They suck at maths' or 'He sucks at Maths' or 'That man sucks at Maths'....   then 'She sucks at maths' or 'That woman sucks at maths' for the second pic. 

I get the comic - but it isn't the same as the situation we are discussing. Actually - I'd like to stop discussing it really - lol. I only chimed back in as I have come back from the xmas break. -  Happy New Year to you.

 

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3 hours ago, DrP said:

Meanwhile - what the press did not cover, a man had died of starvation on the steps of parliament again as a result of government cuts and austerity. They did a fine job of covering that up by screaming blue murder about a total non incident to distract. Whatever. Roll on brexit and the Trump wars then...  no one cares about them as long as they are all PC about it.

A fair point with which I agree. We get pretty spun around the axle sometimes and it prevents us from dealing with things that truly matter.

That said, we can (should be able to?) walk and chew bubble gum at the same time and addressing these individual issues is in no way mutually exclusive.

We don't have to choose one or the other. We can (and should) find ways to improve at both for the betterment of us all.

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Just now, iNow said:

This implies to me only that he consciously KNEW it was insulting and wrong and was seeking to prevent the ostracization and social umbrage that was certain to follow had he spoken more loudly such that others could hear.

Calling anyone 'stupid' is thought to be wrong in some cases...   he was frustrated at the lack of caring from the opposition about them seemingly being quite blasé about leaving the EU without any deal.

 

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25 minutes ago, Strange said:

And, as he was talking only to himself, the use of "woman" can't have been necessary to disambiguate who he was talking about so it must have been intended, as hypervalent says, to emphasise the insult. Calling a man "stupid idiot" for example says that he is stupid and, worse still, and idiot. So what does that tell us about "stupid woman"?

2

She said something stupid?

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Just now, iNow said:

We can (and should) find ways to improve at both for the betterment of us all.

I agree  - although the man in question probably does too - it is his life's work. You could probably find (and regularly do) many more and far worse blunders from the opposition which just get left unchallenged or get laughed at if they are challenged as PCness gone mad. :-( 

 

Just now, dimreepr said:

She said something stupid?

Only if you think that wanting to leave the EU with WTO regs in place rather than a new deal is a stupid idea to rest back upon.....  oh and to take make no actual plans for such an outcome in the process of waiting.

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11 minutes ago, DrP said:

get the comic - but it isn't the same as the situation we are discussing.

I think it is intimately related. The problem with "stupid woman" (if there is one, he adds, hedging his bets!) is just one example of the way gendered language is used more generally.

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10 minutes ago, iNow said:

That said, we can (should be able to?) walk and chew bubble gum at the same time and addressing these individual issues is in no way mutually exclusive.

We can, but it's so much more fun to just chew bubble gum instead of walking as well.

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7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

She said something stupid?

I was trying to draw an analogy between the structure of the two sentences.

 

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2 minutes ago, Strange said:

I think it is intimately related. The problem with "stupid woman" (if there is one, he adds, hedging his bets!) is just one example of the way gendered language is used more generally.

If he said "stupid women" it'd be general. Woman is singular, meaning it was directed at her. Not women in general.

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Just now, Raider5678 said:

If he said "stupid women" it'd be general. Woman is singular, meaning it was directed at her. Not women in general.

That thing that flew over your head just now? That was the point. I think you missed it.

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Just now, Strange said:

That thing that flew over your head just now? That was the point. I think you missed it.

I apologize then, I thought you were still discussing in relation to the comic.

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4 hours ago, DrP said:

We can change it - but don't shoot people that use it until it has been officially changed and accepted and learnt by all.

What you are doing here is acting like you accept the idea of people being informed about the appropriate use of language, but then undercutting that effort in the same sentence by misrepresenting the conversation as being equivalent to "shooting people". There will be no "official change" or "acceptance by all".

What we are doing here, and in all similar conversations about this matter in forums or in the press, is teaching people that this type of language is inappropriate. Let's not hinder that effort through misrepresentation or the setting of unrealistic goals.

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2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I apologize then, I thought you were still discussing in relation to the comic.

The point I was making (about "stupid woman", the comic and many other examples) is that the use of language differently for men and women is so widespread that it is often not seen. And yet it can have a corrosive effect. 

So a specific use of "stupid woman" addressed to a woman who has just aid something stupid (which is entirely plausible as she was talking about Brexit and rarely has anything intelligent to say on the subject) may not matter too much. But it is symptomatic of a wider problem.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

What we are doing here, and in all similar conversations about this matter in forums or in the press, is teaching people that this type of language is inappropriate.

Teaching someone that it's inappropriate is taking them aside and saying, "Look. You don't say that. It's wrong, it's hurtful, and it's sexist. Don't say it."

Not calling for their resignation from their career, calling you a sexist bigot on social media and the news, make you out to be a disgrace to humanity, and acting like you're one of the sexist bigots who actually do exist. 

 

Edited by Raider5678

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