DrmDoc

What is faith?

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To the believers here who, oddly, chose to post to predominately science discussion forums, what is faith and why do you have it?  Perhaps you've discussed this topic variously before and, if so, I entreat your brief indulgence further.  My perusal of discussions here suggested to me that some of you do not seem to have a clear perspective of what distinguishes faith from science.  Most often arguments against science are used as justification for faith; however, those arguments do not appear to define a basis for your religious faith.  As I perceive, faith is a shield believers use against life's doubts, insecurities, and traumas.  Some of you may view science as an attack on that shield.  However, none of this provides your understanding of faith or what compel your belief.  What have you observed, experienced, or accomplished that supports your faith?  Is that support tangible? 

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11 minutes ago, DrmDoc said:

What have you observed, experienced, or accomplished that supports your faith?  Is that support tangible? 

Nature. Yes it is.

We are at the edge of technological singularity. It could happen elsewhere a billion years ago...

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7 hours ago, DrmDoc said:

  As I perceive, faith is a shield believers use against life's doubts, insecurities, and traumas.  Some of you may view science as an attack on that shield.  

Yes, yes, yes: a thousand times yes! Hence the increasing numbers of evangelisitc crusades against what believers see as tearing down that shield.

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8 hours ago, Lasse said:

Nature. Yes it is.

Do you understand that scientists also observe nature and explain it without invoking a God.

And do you also understand that nature is entirely  consistent with there being no God?

And do you therefore understand that nature is not evidence for God.

It's like saying that it is theoretically possible that someone deliberately planted weeds in my garden.

The weeds are there.

So the phantom weed planter must exist!.

 

The presence of weeds is consistent with His existence, but it's certainly not proof of it and, given that there are other more plausible explanations, it hardly counts as evidence for it.

 

So, while nature is tangible, it's not evidence.

 

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28 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

The weeds are there.

So the phantom weed planter must exist!.

 

+1

 

Nah, not a phantom.

It mustha bin a Sassenach.

 

:)

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Everything Nature has to offer Now has connection to the first moment of existence on the level of information (at least through spacetime.)

Whatever is there at the first moment, call it singularity, God, basic information, whatever, it will be part of nature if it is present at T0. 0*1(something)=

 

 

 

Edited by Lasse

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4 minutes ago, Lasse said:

Everything Nature has to offer Now has connection to the first moment of existence on the level of information (at least through spacetime.)

Whatever is there at the first moment, call it singularity, God, basic information, whatever, it will be part of nature if it is present at T0. 0*1(something)=

So, if it can be evidence of anything whatever, then it can't be evidence for your god.

And there is no evidence for a "first moment of existence". So you are just making stuff up again.

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8 hours ago, Lasse said:

Nature. Yes it is.

We are at the edge of technological singularity. It could happen elsewhere a billion years ago...

Where in nature and, specifically, how does that perspective support your belief?  

 

19 minutes ago, beecee said:

Yes, yes, yes: a thousand times yes! Hence the increasing numbers of evangelisitc crusades against what believers see as tearing down that shield.

I've observed how believers justify what and why they believe by attacking science usually through a perspective that science hasn't or can't produce all the answers some have sought.  What some believers do not seem to realize is that science and faith are the same from that perspective.  Unquestioned belief is the very nature of faith because questions inure doubt in the shield believers employ against doubt.  However, what we believe isn't always true.  Sometimes what we believe is wrong.  Many of us, for example, quickly learned that some of the notions we were influenced to believe as a child weren't true (e.g., Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Boogie Man, etc.).  Science is an attempt to insure that what we believe isn't wrong or, in some cases, a myth.   

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Strange said:

So, if it can be evidence of anything whatever, then it can't be evidence for your god.

The only supernatural I can perceive is the state of the physical zero. Everything else can be part of the system and choose your god or don't if you do not feel like. Aliens are God like Natural components :) (for me)

Edited by Lasse

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6 minutes ago, Lasse said:

The only supernatural I can perceive is the state of the physical zero.

There is nothing supernatural about zero. 

7 minutes ago, Lasse said:

Aliens are God like Natural components

Is this because there is no evidence for aliens, just like there is no evidence for god. 

 

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7 minutes ago, DrmDoc said:

Where in nature and, specifically, how does that perspective support your belief?  

In every atom and electron present in the currently observable space time. I.e everything evolved to the current state through a continuous, cause and effect based process.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Strange said:

There is nothing supernatural about zero. 

For you. For me it is even a bit mystic...

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3 minutes ago, Lasse said:

For me it is even a bit mystic...

That is a problem with you, not zero. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Strange said:

That is a problem with you, not zero. 

There is No problem with me or the concept of zero. My path to understand concepts is different from your path. What is important, that the concept is clear and easily perceivable. 

Edited by Lasse

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3 minutes ago, Lasse said:

There is No problem with me or the concept of zero. 

Good. Neither of them are metaphysical or mystical, that is for sure.

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I'm not a believer as the OP describes, but to me faith is the strongest of beliefs based on the weakest of reasons. Faith demands total conviction because there's nothing to trust. It's strong conviction about something either wishful or frightening.

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On 4/29/2018 at 6:04 PM, Lasse said:

In every atom and electron present in the currently observable space time. I.e everything evolved to the current state through a continuous, cause and effect based process.

If I understand correctly, nature affirms your faith.  That affirmation, as you've further explained, is supported by what you've perceived as a continuous cause and effect process evident in the quantum nature of space time.  I can't say that what you're conveyed here is entirely clear to me but it seems that science, based on your use of terms, is in someway central to what you believe.  Is it fair to say that no conflict exist between your notion of science and your beliefs? 

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Faith imho is pretty much the same as hope. It's not a matter of because, but of in spite. To try in spite of the odds, to carry on in spite of the hardship. This can be inspired in the best cases, and deluded in the worst. To the oppressed, it's the source of their defiance, to the oppressors, the source of their authority (here hope not so much)

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11 hours ago, YaDinghus said:

Faith imho is pretty much the same as hope. It's not a matter of because, but of in spite. To try in spite of the odds, to carry on in spite of the hardship. This can be inspired in the best cases, and deluded in the worst. To the oppressed, it's the source of their defiance, to the oppressors, the source of their authority (here hope not so much)

The distinction I make between faith and hope/wishful thinking is in the willingness to change one's life for the belief. I can hope there is something for my consciousness to continue into after the death of my body without doing anything different in my life. Faith, however, often requires great sacrifices and strictures on lifestyle based only on the strength of the belief.

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17 hours ago, Phi for All said:

The distinction I make between faith and hope/wishful thinking is in the willingness to change one's life for the belief. I can hope there is something for my consciousness to continue into after the death of my body without doing anything different in my life. Faith, however, often requires great sacrifices and strictures on lifestyle based only on the strength of the belief.

A very good distinction, thanks :) my personal faith is pretty laid back, not really many rules to follow. Keeps things simple

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I see Faith or Belief  to be more often related to purpose.

With a fear of losing that purpose,  in altering that concept or perspective.

To invest your identity in a perspective or concept of reality.

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33 minutes ago, naitche said:

see Faith or Belief  to be more often related to purpose.

Related, perhaps, but not the same. One can have purpose to survive the night, oroteft their children, or help others and all without introducing nonsensical unnecessary concepts like faith. 

35 minutes ago, naitche said:

With a fear of losing that purpose,  in altering that concept or perspective.

Poor sentence structure. It’s basically word salad. With fear of... then what, exactly? Complete your thought. It’s like you’ve written an if/then comment and forgotten to add the Then. 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, iNow said:

Related, perhaps, but not the same. One can have purpose to survive the night, oroteft their children, or help others and all without introducing nonsensical unnecessary concepts like faith. 

I don't think it is different. You can have many types of purpose. Faith or Belief don't have to be part of it. They are unnecessary to purpose.

Some times we have them anyway, with out recognising it. 

Religious faith is just the more obvious example. 

Quote

Poor sentence structure. It’s basically word salad. With fear of... then what, exactly? Complete your thought. It’s like you’ve written an if/then comment and forgotten to add the Then. 

Then what exactly?  loosing the  reality you have invested in.  

Edited by naitche

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1 hour ago, naitche said:

You can have many types of purpose. Faith or Belief don't have to be part of it.

Exactly my point

1 hour ago, naitche said:

loosing the  reality you have invested in.  

Elaborate

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1 hour ago, iNow said:

Exactly my point

 I did say related.  A relationship to be avoided I agree.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Exactly my point

Elaborate

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Elaborate

Still considering  how that needs  doing.

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8 hours ago, naitche said:

Still considering  how that needs  doing.

I’ll wait

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