StringJunky

Trump to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

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President Donald Trump will announce on Wednesday that the United States recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and will move its embassy there, breaking with longtime U.S. policy and potentially threatening regional stability.  https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-israel/trump-to-recognise-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-defying-warnings-of-unrest-idUKKBN1DZ053

Will this cause a lot of problems?

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Almost certainly. The question with which I'm wrestling is how many new deaths and threats this will create, and also whether or not this sort of "disruption" may actually help in the long-term... Decades of negotiations have failed and perhaps this is the type of crazy step which is needed to get us out of the horrible status quo. I don't know. As I prefaced, I'm wrestling with the question quite a bit.

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19 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Will this cause a lot of problems?

As one of the parties involved has called it a "kiss of death", I think the answer is yes.

I just don't understand what the reason is for doing this. It certainly ins't going to help anything. Unless Trump thinks he can solve the Middle East problem simply by siding with Israel and telling everyone else to get lost. So much for the "great negotiator". 

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You are both are aligned with what I think. I'm just facepalming. I'm hoping that the people trying to nail him for the Russian incidents succeed in the not too far distant future.

Edited by StringJunky

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Trump should not get involved with the Jerusalem tribes.  Defining their capital is their business and nobody else.

Moving the embassy to Jerusalem should be requested by such tribes;  and the embassy should be for all the tribes/countries claiming Jerusalem as their capital, not only Israel.  If the embassy is only for serving Israel, leave it where it is.

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1 hour ago, iNow said:

Decades of negotiations have failed and perhaps this is the type of crazy step which is needed to get us out of the horrible status quo. I don't know.

I am not quite as positive about that. Certain groups, including the Hamas are fueling their power by declaring that the peace negotiations are biased against Palestinians. Often, they were forced to the negotiation table in order to demonstrate they themselves were not acting in bad faith. This step pretty much confirms to the Arab world that the negotiations were biased from the get go. My take is that this move is likely to empower the radicals while diminishing the influence of moderating forces.

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12 minutes ago, CharonY said:

this move is likely to empower the radicals while diminishing the influence of moderating forces.

I suspect you're correct, and am clearly grasping at any modicum of hope I can find

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31 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I am not quite as positive about that. Certain groups, including the Hamas are fueling their power by declaring that the peace negotiations are biased against Palestinians. Often, they were forced to the negotiation table in order to demonstrate they themselves were not acting in bad faith. This step pretty much confirms to the Arab world that the negotiations were biased from the get go. My take is that this move is likely to empower the radicals while diminishing the influence of moderating forces.

May be it's for the rest of the west to to be clear to the Palestinians this is a purely unilateral act on the part of the US.

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11 minutes ago, iNow said:

I suspect you're correct, and am clearly grasping at any modicum of hope I can find

I don't think you're wrong to do so, as we can't know how it will affect the future; news is just news, good or bad is just a question of time; although I doubt Trump has the foresight or understanding to plan the outcome. 

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2 hours ago, iNow said:

Almost certainly. The question with which I'm wrestling is how many new deaths and threats this will create, and also whether or not this sort of "disruption" may actually help in the long-term... Decades of negotiations have failed and perhaps this is the type of crazy step which is needed to get us out of the horrible status quo. I don't know. As I prefaced, I'm wrestling with the question quite a bit.

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The feeling to do something new is palpable when a situation has seemingly stagnated however things today are better than they have been in a very long time. I personally think the pragmatic and disciplined approach at this moment is to analyze what has worked, attempt to gain consensus about what has worked, and continue doing those things. 

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

My take is that this move is likely to empower the radicals while diminishing the influence of moderating forces.

My take is that this is a move by radicals designed diminishing the influence of moderating forces.

 

 

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

 

Edited by Ten oz
Double post

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Is this not just a case of religious nutters being religious nutters. Trump certainly appears to fulfill the both the religious and nutter category? Watching the TV picture of him rocking backwards and forwards at the wailing wall, appeared psychotic? Being none religious it does not concern me what religious nutters do to each other, I am however a little concerned about the safety of innocent bystanders who are unfortunate enough to have been born there, and must be bewildered by what is going to happen.

I think if someone had taken bulldozer to Jerusalem and Mecca at the end of the 2nd world war, the world might not have the problems it has today. A world without religion could be paradise on earth. BUT Religion is big business and gets the likes of Trump, Bush I & II elected etc, helps to control society in uneducated ignorant countries, and is therefore a useful political tool. Religious nutters will be around for eternity until they run out of people to harm. 

I guess the tourism trade in Jerusalem and the middle east is going to be affected for a few years to come. I wonder how many American Christians are going to expect a friendly welcome in the Holy land now and for the next few years to come. It is not some where I would want to go, but if I did I would have a T-Shirt with I an NOT American written on it, or perhaps the union jack on it, but I would definitely not want to be mistaken for a American.  

I do think that the Palestinians support for the return of Texas to Mexico is very important, it is after all the Mexicans homeland, and there is actual evidence they did live there recently. However the mexicans were conquered by the Spanish who stole everything from the people who lived in America before they arrived, who in turn conquered the previous people who were there etc etc.

Is it illegal in America for people to behave in a way that is likely to cause a breach of the peace? Has Donald trump used his powers in a way that is likely to cause a breach of the peace across the Moslem world? some of whom live in America. Will this move help the so called war on terror? Is it in Americas best interests?  

Does anyone have a sweep stake running on how long it will be before someone tries to kill Donald Trump. 

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12 minutes ago, interested said:

I think if someone had taken bulldozer to Jerusalem and Mecca at the end of the 2nd world war, the world might not have the problems it has today. 

I think arbitrarily drawing borders without any respect for the region or cultural knowledge after ww1 was the people. Bulldozing critical points heritage absolutely wouldn't have been useful. Such is akin to arguing that forcing all non-European (Europe minus Spain) descended people out of the U.S. post the Civil War would have fixed race relations. 

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2 hours ago, interested said:

Trump certainly appears to fulfill the both the religious and nutter category?

Nutter? Sure. Religious? Uhmmm, no.

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4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I think arbitrarily drawing borders without any respect for the region or cultural knowledge after ww1 was the people. Bulldozing critical points heritage absolutely wouldn't have been useful. Such is akin to arguing that forcing all non-European (Europe minus Spain) descended people out of the U.S. post the Civil War would have fixed race relations. 

The problem arose with Israel after WW2, many displaced European Jews went to Palestine where they settled eventually out numbering the locals and took over, so I guess you could blame it on Hitler. 

You could also draw analogies between many other points in history where one country occupied for thousands of years by one race is wiped out by another who claims it as there homeland. If there are no or few survivors no one complains, unfortunately for Israel much of the world especially in the middle east do not believe the Israelis should have been granted the land they have from the Palestinians.  The problem with Jerusalem is that every religious nut in the world connected with the old testament based religions have a holy site there, and the Islamic types are not fond of the Jewish types. Trumps acceptance of Jerusalem as the new capitol of Israel is at the very least going to cost quite a few lives, but I guess they will just call it CAPITOL damage and is to be expected, now that Jerusalem is officially a capitol according to America.  

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Nutter? Sure. Religious? Uhmmm, no.

Uhmmmmm yes. I took an interest in the news when the US elections were on for entertainment and I distinctly remember the nutter sitting down whilst other nutters put hands on him and prayed for him. He appears to me to be a Nutter and Religious one at that, and to make it worse the Vice President is even more crazy he is a creationist, and they have more bombs than they can use.

Edited by interested

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So, just to make sure I’m clear and not misreading you, your suggestion is that Donald Trump is a pious man best classified as religious?

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4 hours ago, interested said:

The problem arose with Israel after WW2, many displaced European Jews went to Palestine where they settled eventually out numbering the locals and took over, so I guess you could blame it on Hitler. 

Why stop at Hitler? We can also lay blame on, say, Stalin, Catholic Church, Spanish Inquisition and Roman Empire. And this is just to start.

BTW, It's capital, not capitol.

4 hours ago, interested said:

Trumps acceptance of Jerusalem as the new capitol of Israel is at the very least going to cost quite a few lives,

This is going to cause a ton of lives, but it was somewhat inevitable.

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9 hours ago, interested said:

The problem arose with Israel after WW2, many displaced European Jews went to Palestine where they settled eventually out numbering the locals and took over, so I guess you could blame it on Hitler.

"The Sykes–Picot Agreement /ˈsaɪks piˈkoʊ/, officially known as the Asia Minor Agreement, was a secret 1916 agreement between the United Kingdom and France,[1] to which the Russian Empire assented. The agreement defined their mutually agreed spheres of influence and control in Southwestern Asia. The agreement was based on the premise that the Triple Entente would succeed in defeating the Ottoman Empire during World War I. The negotiations leading to the agreement occurred between November 1915 and March 1916 [2] and it was signed 16 May 1916.[3] The deal, exposed to the public in Izvestia and Pravda on 23 November 1917 and in the British Guardian on November 26, 1917,[4][5] is still mentioned when considering the region and its present-day conflicts.[6][7]

The agreement allocated to Britain control of areas roughly comprising the coastal strip between the Mediterranean Sea and the River Jordan, Jordan, southern Iraq, and an additional small area that included the ports of Haifa and Acre, to allow access to the Mediterranean.[8] France got control of southeastern Turkey, northern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.[8] Russia was to get Istanbul, the Turkish Straits and Armenia.[8] The controlling powers were left free to determine state boundaries within their areas.[8] Further negotiation was expected to determine international administration in the "brown area" (an area including Jerusalem, similar to and smaller than Mandate Palestine), the form of which was to be decided upon after consultation with Russia, and subsequently in consultation with the other Allies, and the representatives of Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement

 

The problem started at the end of WW1 when several nations were arbitrarily created to satisfy European interests. Parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and etc had all been The Ottoman Empire for several hundred years up to that the conclusion of WW1. The decisions made at that point in history transformed the region. The creation if Israel after WW2 was just icing on the cake.

5 hours ago, pavelcherepan said:

.This is going to cause a ton of lives, but it was somewhat inevitable.

Please explain? 

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Maybe a big dump of disrespect is exactly what they need. Tip toeing around on eggshells for a hundred years too afraid to upset peoples faiths and beliefs hasn't worked. I liked the idea a few posts above.  Bulldoze their holy of holy site they both lay claim to and leave it at that. Both side's prophecies ground into the ground - no-one has it. 

We will see if god is so great to stop it.  Other wise it will prove they are both wrong about their BS religions. Drag them into the new age of man and make them leave their ancient backward religions in the past with mythology where it belongs. With the holy site totally destroyed I think it would prove that god is not great....  but rather non existent.  Then we can all move on in peace. Go Trump - go and shake it up. It will be hell and war for a while with mass loss of life.... but in the LONG term, it might just clear the air and save lives.   Honestly, I'd rather keep the peace and take a diplomatic approach, but it isn't working all the while both sides report to have a divine claim over the land. Take the divine out of it and see who wants it then. 

 

Solution: Anyone who wants to stay in peace - stay in peace under 1 banner/country of Israel. Anyone who wants to fight - dies. Anyone who wants to leave gets re homed in the surrounding Arab nation of Iraq, Iran, Saudi, Leb, Jordan etc.. free of charge with a cash sweetener.   

 

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10 hours ago, iNow said:

So, just to make sure I’m clear and not misreading you, your suggestion is that Donald Trump is a pious man best classified as religious?

Not quite, what I am saying is, he is a religious and a nutter, I dont think pious comes into it. Since he got into power he has helped destabilise North Korea, and now it seems hes having a full frontal go of upsetting the whole of the middle east. He is looking for trouble rather than trying to calm it down.

 

21 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

"The Sykes–Picot Agreement

Yep the problem in the middle east goes back along way in history with all the Colonial powers, the english and french fought over it, the russians are there still, all with their own vested interests, playing with peoples lives to control resources and territory. BUT since the WW2 america has largely been in charge. America ie President Trueman declared the state of Israel to be legal about five minute after they declared independence from the rest of Palestine. America has been Israels strongest friend since the beginning. Today it is President Trump upsetting the Palestinians, at the end of WW2 it was President Trueman, so I guess the Palestinians do not view America as a friend. The Palestinans are of course good friends with the rest of the world, and are seen as the wronged party by most of the planet. 

1 minute ago, DrP said:

Bulldoze their holy of holy site they both lay claim to and leave it at that. Both side's prophecies ground into the ground - no-one has it.

This might upset ignorant people in the short term. Education re the purpose of religion and politics in society as a tool for controlling ignorant people who might want to fight over land, buildings and territory. Trump has caused a problem today

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19 minutes ago, interested said:

The Palestinans are of course good friends with the rest of the world, and are seen as the wronged party by most of the planet. 

Although this is sort of true...  before Israel was set up wasn't Palestine just a few nomadic tribes wandering in and out of the place? I thought they had a large population boost from people from religious nutters that swarmed to the place to sit on the border to protest the setting up of Israel. Thus we now have a nation of religous nuts whose sole purpose is to create problems for their neighbor. 

19 minutes ago, interested said:

This might upset ignorant people in the short term. Education re the purpose of religion and politics in society as a tool for controlling ignorant people who might want to fight over land, buildings and territory. Trump has caused a problem today

It might well upset them, of course, but pussy footing around them for the last century hasn't worked. I am not a Trump fan and I think what he has done here is very inflammatory - but in the long run maybe the whole place needs a big shake up to break the status quo of fear, ignorance and religious dogma. . Who knows - it is a complex situation..  Trump can do what he likes - I don't hate him, I just don't agree with him politically. I am a little disgusted that so many people voted for him knowing exactly what they were getting, but it is none of my business at all and neither is anything that is happening in the middle east.  

Edited by DrP
typo

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18 minutes ago, interested said:

what I am saying is, [Trump] is a religious and a nutter

That’s a... how do I put this charitably?... an “uncommon” position. Happy to agree with you on the nutter comment, but find your suggestion of Trump being a religious man to be misguided, at best. Seems painfully obvious to me he’s simply stoking tribalism and using religion to magnify social wedges while in parallel conning and hoodwinking the theists in his base, but YMMV. 

22 minutes ago, interested said:

He is looking for trouble rather than trying to calm it down.

Again, we agree here.

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23 minutes ago, interested said:

Yep the problem in the middle east goes back along way in history with all the Colonial powers, the english and french fought over it, the russians are there still, all with their own vested interests, playing with peoples lives to control resources and territory. BUT since the WW2 america has largely been in charge. America ie President Trueman declared the state of Israel to be legal about five minute after they declared independence from the rest of Palestine. America has been Israels strongest friend since the beginning. Today it is President Trump upsetting the Palestinians, at the end of WW2 it was President Trueman, so I guess the Palestinians do not view America as a friend. The Palestinans are of course good friends with the rest of the world, and are seen as the wronged party by most of the planet. 

"The British began their Sinai and Palestine Campaign in 1915.[88] The war reached southern Palestine in 1917, progressing to Gaza and around Jerusalem by the end of the year.[88] The British secured Jerusalem in December 1917.[89] They moved into the Jordan valley in 1918 and a campaign by the Entente into northern Palestine led to victory at Megiddo in September.

The British were formally awarded the mandate to govern the region in 1922.[90] The non-Jewish Palestinians revolted in 1920, 1929, and 1936.[91] In 1947, following World War II and The Holocaust, the British Government announced its desire to terminate the Mandate, and the United Nations General Assembly adopted in November 1947 a Resolution 181(II) recommending partition into an Arab state, a Jewish state and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem.[92] The Jewish leadership accepted the proposal, but the Arab Higher Committee rejected it; a civil war began immediately after the Resolution's adoption. The State of Israel was declared in May 1948."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)

"After a period of stalemate in Southern Palestine from April to October 1917, General Edmund Allenby captured Beershebafrom the III Corps. Having weakened the Ottoman defences, which had stretched almost continually from Gaza to Beersheba, they were finally captured by 8 November, after the Battle of Tel el Khuweilfe, the Battle of Hareira and Sheria and the Third Battle of Gaza, when the pursuit began. During the subsequent operations, about 50 miles (80 km) of formerly Ottoman territory was captured as a result of the EEF victories at the Battle of Mughar Ridge, fought between 10 and 14 November, and the Battle of Jerusalem, fought between 17 November and 30 December. Serious losses on the Western Front in March 1918, "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_and_Palestine_Campaign

 

What has accorded since is obviously problematic but I think it is important to address how the region became so destabilized to begin with. I think a lot of people in the West just accept that the region has been constantly disputed and at conflict since biblical times without any real appreciation for what has happened to the region over just the last hundred years. 

19 minutes ago, DrP said:

lthough this is sort of true...  before Israel was set up wasn't Palestine just a few nomadic tribes wandering in and out of the place? I thought they had a large population boost from people from religious nutters that swarmed to the place to sit on the border to protest the setting up of Israel. Thus we now have a nation of religous nuts whose sole purpose is to create problems for their neighbor. 

"In World War I, the Ottoman Empire sided with Germany. As a result, it was embroiled in a conflict with Great Britain. Under the secret Sykes–Picot Agreement of 1916, it was envisioned that most of Palestine, when freed from Ottoman control, would become an international zone not under direct French or British colonial control. Shortly thereafter, British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised to establish a "Jewish national home" in Palestine[293]but appeared to contradict the 1915–16 Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, which contained an undertaking to form a united Arab state in exchange for the Great Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire in World War I. McMahon's promises could have been seen by Arab nationalists as a pledge of immediate Arab independence, an undertaking violated by the region's subsequent partition into British and French League of Nations mandates under the secret Sykes-Picot Agreement of May 1916, which became the real cornerstone of the geopolitics structuring the entire region. The Balfour Declaration, likewise, was seen by Jewish nationalists as the cornerstone of a future Jewish homeland."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

 

Israel was created in 1948 however the British had been working on the territory for decades prior. To say Palestine was a few Nomadic tribes isn't accurate. It had formerly been part of the Ottoman Empire and wrestled away during WW1 by the British and the territory purposely segregated to make way for the future creation of a Jewish state.

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It's like a Glaswegian in green and white not being offended by a Protestant at an old firm game, been there and lucky to escape and they didn't have Kalashnikovs...  

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