Phi for All Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 1 hour ago, TheVat said: Sometimes the shoe offered happens to fit, I hope you don't mind me isolating this sentiment. It sort of points out that "fit" isn't determined by anyone other than the wearer of the shoe. Style, color, and other aspects of the shoe can be judged by society, but how well the shoe fits the person is purely subjective. Perhaps one day we can view people going through a gender transformation the same way we view somebody walking around a shoe store trying on shoes to get the best fit possible. We don't assign some ulterior motives to those folks, we don't become convinced they're abnormal because they didn't choose the wingtips, and we don't assume they have some agenda wrt why their footwear choices diverge from the norm so much. On a side note, "If the shoe fits, wear it" is a specious phrase I'm going to make an effort to avoid from now on, like "Rule of thumb". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 2 hours ago, iNow said: Surely "society" is often wrong and their choices must be minimized... And it is society that's changed, is it not ? The general usage, and possibly definitions, have changed for society, but I can still identify as a wop, and black individuals certainly as 'n***a'. It certainly can't be each individual deciding for the rest what the definition of a word is. We'd have 8 billion different definitions, and no one would know what anyone else is talking about. ( somewhat like this thread ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVat Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 4 hours ago, Phi for All said: hope you don't mind me isolating this sentiment. It sort of points out that "fit" isn't determined by anyone other than the wearer of the shoe. Style, color, and other aspects of the shoe can be judged by society, but how well the shoe fits the person is purely subjective. Perhaps one day we can view people going through a gender transformation the same way we view somebody walking around a shoe store trying on shoes to get the best fit possible. We don't assign some ulterior motives to those folks, we don't become convinced they're abnormal because they didn't choose the wingtips... Not at all. I am happy the shoe analogy works. Yes it would be some progress if we could trust people as they look for identity. My only caveat is that it may be difficult for teens, shopping in the sexuality supermarket, to make the best choices. Which may point towards a need for a universal healthcare plan that provides expert counsel in that search. States that withdraw such care now are making things worse, especially for youth who are in the category of confused, searching, and trying to please a peer group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 3 hours ago, MigL said: it is society that's changed, is it not ? The general usage, and possibly definitions, have changed for society Only for some. For others, there are active efforts to legislate against these changes and even make them criminal. In other non-US countries, it even results in death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/7/2024 at 1:43 PM, Phi for All said: I thought so too, until you claimed that "we all do" when asked who decides what it is to be a man for MigL. Hence the reason I said I wasn't defending him, but I stand by "we all do", because politically we have to align for a definition to have any meaning at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 18 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Hence the reason I said I wasn't defending him, but I stand by "we all do", because politically we have to align for a definition to have any meaning at all... Since we aren't aligned politically, are you implying none of our definitions have any meaning at all? By this reasoning, we'll never be able to define anything meaningfully. Are you sure about requiring our politics to align? Maybe our definition of "align" is different too. So how do you think making decisions for others has any meaning? My stance is that you can influence MigL's choices, you can berate him for things that make you uncomfortable, you can even work towards legislation that will force him to make more typical choices, but ultimately the decision to behave in a way that feels right is his, and his alone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 minute ago, Phi for All said: Since we aren't aligned politically, are you implying none of our definitions have any meaning at all? By this reasoning, we'll never be able to define anything meaningfully. Are you sure about requiring our politics to align? Maybe our definition of "align" is different too. So how do you think making decisions for others has any meaning? My stance is that you can influence MigL's choices, you can berate him for things that make you uncomfortable, you can even work towards legislation that will force him to make more typical choices, but ultimately the decision to behave in a way that feels right is his, and his alone. Whatever floats your boat... The thing is, I'll have to try really hard too care much if I'm not emotionally invested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 5 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Whatever floats your boat... The thing is, I'll have to try really hard too care much if I'm not emotionally invested... OK. Thanks for just yawning instead of insulting me. I get the message either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, Phi for All said: OK. Thanks for just yawning instead of insulting me. I get the message either way. I'm not sure you do, which one of us is content with least? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 20 hours ago, iNow said: Only for some. For others, there are active efforts to legislate against these changes and even make them criminal. In other non-US countries, it even results in death In Alberta, Canada, there is legislation in play that aim to legislate care for children. A big issue is that it sets hard limits rather than providing the breathing space youths, parents and medical professionals need to make proper individual assessments. While on its face it might seem that quite a bit is inconsequential (e.g. genital surgery is already age limited) it raises the question regarding the legality of other types of surgeries (e.g. breast surgery related to cancer or pain). Attempting to legislate health care is always an issue, especially when guidelines become very specific and are done without a strong consensus from the medical community (and even then there are issues) as human health and biology does not conform to simple rules that could be addressed by checklists adequately. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/danielle-smith-unveils-sweeping-changes-to-alberta-s-student-gender-identity-sports-and-surgery-policies-1.7101053 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) Why are you guys talking about me like I'm not in the room ? Especially since neither of you seems to understand ( or want to understand ) my position ? Everybody is free to identify as whatever they wish. But society defines the meaning of a word. Admittedly, word definitions, and usage, do change over time; words take on different meanings, and disappear from usage. But until male and female are, either eliminated from common usage, or take on a different meaning, society will still have a generalized idea of what a male, and what a female, is.And no that doesn't mean I'm claiming people don't have the right to identify as one or the other, as they themselves see fit. Or maybe I haven't noticed that 'male' and 'female' have been eliminated from common usage. Tell me, Phi, if you were a grade 1 teacher, and you asked your students to draw a picture of a man, and they drew a picture of a woman, would you mark that right or wrong ? Tell me. When a man identifies as a woman, or a woman as a man, what do they think those words mean, if you think the words should be ambiguous, are a spectrum, and possibly no meaning. Why is it that I'm not allowed to define what 'man', or 'woman', means to me, but a Trans person can confidently say "I'm not this; I'm that." ? ( I guess the words do have a meaning for them ) People define/identify themselves with words; society ( until change ) defines those words. PS I hope none of you guys ever get mugged or robbed. When the cops ask you whether the perpetrator was male or female, I have no idea what you'll say 🙂 . Edited February 8 by MigL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVat Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Didn't quite get that...until I recalled the thread title. That body language says more Sam than Samantha to me. But I'm just relying on bro stereotypes in that judgment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 7 hours ago, MigL said: until male and female are, either eliminated from common usage, or take on a different meaning, society will still have a generalized idea of what a male, and what a female, is. Transformations are hard, and we’re in the middle of one right now. We are experiencing (and in some cases advocating) the change. The sad part is it will never be as hard for us to adjust how we apply our words and alter our language during the transition as it is for people trying desperately to be authentic with who they are within a society who hates and so often wants to hurt them and strip away their rights merely for doing so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSC Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 On 2/3/2024 at 9:11 AM, Sensei said: Are you living under a rock? People don't "tweet" anymore.. There's an X. Apparently shortcut from "eXcretion".. Once the moderators were fired, it may fit better with the new profile.. If only Elon was competent enough to make a name stick, tweettweet lol On 2/8/2024 at 7:20 PM, MigL said: hope none of you guys ever get mugged or robbed. When the cops ask you whether the perpetrator was male or female, I have no idea what you'll say Have been, it was clearly a dude. Even if it had been hard to tell, I think folks would forgive me misgendering a criminal whom is without recourse lol That said, I'd actually love to see cops interviewing someone trying to get out of a mugging charge because the victim misgendered them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Hello, my name is Samantha but I'm not an aardvark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSC Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 5 hours ago, Moontanman said: Hello, my name is Samantha but I'm not an aardvark! Please tell me you did this? Also can you do the same thing but in Almonds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 15 hours ago, MSC said: Please tell me you did this? Also can you do the same thing but in Almonds? Sorry not mine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 On 2/18/2024 at 9:55 AM, Moontanman said: Hello, my name is Samantha but I'm not an aardvark! Did INow get to it with his orange crayons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 No. I used DALL-e like any self-respecting forum-curmudgeon might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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