DrP

'Stupid Woman'

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13 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Quite frankly, I'm not looking for a fight. I'm trying to have a discussion, which would be going a lot better if you'd stop making comments about my ability to comprehend things.

 

:)

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7 hours ago, iNow said:

I find the stupid woman comment contemptuous.

What "stupid woman" comment?

 

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1 hour ago, iNow said:

Yeah. I find these dismissals contemptuous, too.

have you ever done a jig to a song you hate?

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23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

have you ever done a jig to a song you hate?

No

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2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

What "stupid woman" comment?

It's referencing the OP. Allegedly, Jeremy Corbin said "Stupid woman" under his breath while whispering to an aid during the prime minister question time, after the prime minister didn't answer his questions adequately.

 

The discussion is essentially split between 4 sides:

Saying "Stupid Woman" could likely simply have been an identifier, it shouldn't matter.

Saying "Stupid Woman" could likely have been a sexual comment, it does matter.

Saying "Stupid Woman" could have been either, it depends on what he meant and since we don't know that, we should withhold judgment.

Saying "Stupid Woman" could have been either, but since it can be interpreted as being a sexual comment, we shouldn't have to withhold judgement.

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6 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

It's referencing the OP. Allegedly, Jeremy Corbin said "Stupid woman" under his breath while whispering to an aid during the prime minister question time, after the prime minister didn't answer his questions adequately.

 

The discussion is essentially split between 4 sides:

Saying "Stupid Woman" could likely simply have been an identifier, it shouldn't matter.

Saying "Stupid Woman" could likely have been a sexual comment, it does matter.

Saying "Stupid Woman" could have been either, it depends on what he meant and since we don't know that, we should withhold judgment.

Saying "Stupid Woman" could have been either, but since it can be interpreted as being a sexual comment, we shouldn't have to withhold judgement.

John was referencing the 5th side, the one where they’re lying and claiming he didn’t say it at all. 

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5 minutes ago, iNow said:

John was referencing the 5th side, the one where they’re lying and claiming he didn’t say it at all. 

Specifically, I believe they are saying he said "Stupid people" instead

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15 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Once again, stop putting words in my mouth. 

I did not say they were calling me racist. There was a single person from texas who called me racist, and then I said that more specifically, the University of California has labeled the statement as racist. That's my viewpoint on it.

Regardless of whether you think about whether or not they technically said it was racist or not, the main idea which you're completely intent on ignoring is that they said it's politically incorrect, and I think it's ridiculous.

 

I suspect we both agree on that simple concept that saying "There is only one race, the human race" shouldn't be politically incorrect. But you seem more intent on digging your heels in then simply saying something like "Okay, yeah. I can see where me saying that almost everyone who complains about politically correct things is just a privileged person is ignoring a lot of situations."

 

I feel differently.

When the intentions are directly in reference to the subject, such as sexism, then yes, it's all relative.

If the intentions had nothing to do with that, and were simply grammatical, I don't think that makes something sexist.

 

For example, if he made a statement on the stupidity of women, it could be interpreted as sexist, yes. It was directly related to sexism and genders.

When he says "stupid woman" and uses it in a grammatical way, then it doesn't lay on some sort of spectrum, it just exists.

Here is an interview with the FBI profiler that helped catch the Unabomber. In it he explains how the FBI was able to determine the Unabomber's age and where he was brought up based of the Unabomber's use of words like "broad" and "chick". Link

The way people speak does say a lot about them. If someone calls using the toilet using the Loo you'd assume they were from England. If they called the toilet the Head you'd assume military. I have only ever heard Washroom rather than Bathroom used by older people. language is very nuanced.

You may feel "stupid woman" is an ambiguous remark but I have never heard a Woman refer to another woman as a "stupid woman". I have heard other insults but not that one specifically. "Stupid woman" is most typically used by men. Assuming you accept (more commonly used by men) that why would that be so?

I went hiking yesterday with a friend of mine and his 2 daughters ages 11 & 13. The two daughters had numerous little inside phrases that only mean anything in context to each other. Two people speaking the exact same words can have totally separate meanings. When someone tells me Merry Christmas they can be wishing me good cheer or they could be making a religious based political statement. Moreover key words become weaponized in politics all the time. I am not familiar enough with politics in England to have any sense for which key weaponized words and phrases Corbyn would use. I personally don't find "stupid woman" purposefully offensive but I am not the one who said it. Ultimately this is why public figures should be careful when they open their mouths. 

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22 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Here is an interview with the FBI profiler that helped catch the Unabomber. In it he explains how the FBI was able to determine the Unabomber's age and where he was brought up based of the Unabomber's use of words like "broad" and "chick". Link

The way people speak does say a lot about them. If someone calls using the toilet using the Loo you'd assume they were from England. If they called the toilet the Head you'd assume military. I have only ever heard Washroom rather than Bathroom used by older people. language is very nuanced.

You may feel "stupid woman" is an ambiguous remark but I have never heard a Woman refer to another woman as a "stupid woman". I have heard other insults but not that one specifically. "Stupid woman" is most typically used by men. Assuming you accept (more commonly used by men) that why would that be so?

I went hiking yesterday with a friend of mine and his 2 daughters ages 11 & 13. The two daughters had numerous little inside phrases that only mean anything in context to each other. Two people speaking the exact same words can have totally separate meanings. When someone tells me Merry Christmas they can be wishing me good cheer or they could be making a religious based political statement. Moreover key words become weaponized in politics all the time. I am not familiar enough with politics in England to have any sense for which key weaponized words and phrases Corbyn would use. I personally don't find "stupid woman" purposefully offensive but I am not the one who said it. Ultimately this is why public figures should be careful when they open their mouths. 

I bet you've heard a woman say "stupid man" or "stupid boy".

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33 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I bet you've heard a woman say "stupid man" or "stupid boy".

When we do, there’s no argument or disingenuousness about the intent. The mention of gender in such instances is clearly intended to be a negative assessment on men in general. 

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1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

I bet you've heard a woman say "stupid man" or "stupid boy".

Actually I haven't. Culturally here in the U.S. among the people I have been around throughout my life "stupid man" isn't something I recall. I have heard a**hole and d*ck countless times. Those two slurs are pretty much always gender specific towards men. However neither challenges a man's intelligence. Both those slurs primarily criticize aggressive and pushy behavior. Gender specific  criticisms of men don't typically challenge intelligence. There are even gender specific ones that concede intelligence while criticizing other behavior like Wise Guy and Smart Aleck. 

That said different slang in prominent in different areas and we (you and I) live in different countries. So our experience will be different.

*Edit - I have heard women say things like "he's just a boy" to imply someone behaves stupid or immaturely. There really isn't an equivalent for women. She's just a girl doesn't really mean anything. 

 

Edited by Ten oz

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3 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Actually I haven't. Culturally here in the U.S. among the people I have been around throughout my life "stupid man" isn't something I recall. I have heard a**hole and d*ck countless times. Those to slurs are pretty much always gender specific towards men. However neither challenges a man's intelligence. Both those slurs primarily criticize aggressive and pushy behavior. Gender specific  criticisms of men don't typically challenge intelligence. There are even gender specific ones that concede intelligence while criticizing other behavior like Wise Guy and Smart Aleck. 

That said different slang in prominent in different areas and we (you and I) live in different countries. So our experience will be different.

 

I forgot you are American, so yeah, you might not have heard it.

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3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I forgot you are American, so yeah, you might not have heard it.

The way things have been going here your comment could be perceived as a compliment. :(

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Stupid boy, as with stupid girl, is more in reference to age. Again, it is used to underscore the original insult. Which once again brings us back to stupid woman, and the contextual implications of it being gendered. I am not familiar with the use of stupid man as an insult at all, at least where I live. 

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59 minutes ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

Stupid boy, as with stupid girl, is more in reference to age. Again, it is used to underscore the original insult. Which once again brings us back to stupid woman, and the contextual implications of it being gendered. I am not familiar with the use of stupid man as an insult at all, at least where I live. 

Women omit the "stupid" and just say "Men!". :D 

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I have spent much time in the States Ten oz, and while you don't hear 'stupid man' too often, you do hear 'that man is stupid', which is consistent with use as an identifier.
You do get, in popular media such as tv commercials, the implication that men are stupid.
They won't ask for directions when lost.
They can't boil water or cook anything.
The don't clean up after theselves, or do laundry properly.
They are basically useless without their better half ( a woman ).
Etc.  Etc.  ( even though it is often true, it is generalizing, and not indicative of all men )

My take on this is " Don't get your knickers in a knot"
But that might be considered sexist.

So if a comment makes you feel uncomfortable in any way, let the commenter know how you feel and ask him/her to stop.
Most decent humans don't like to make others uncomfortable, and will stop.
Situation resolved.

Those that don't stop are jackasses, and beyond redemption, and probably best avoided.

I wonder, if E May had immediately made it known to J Corbyn that the comment distressed her, if he wouldn't have immediately apologized, and it may never even have made the news.

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12 minutes ago, MigL said:

I have spent much time in the States Ten oz, and while you don't hear 'stupid man' too often, you do hear 'that man is stupid', which is consistent with use as an identifier.You do get, in popular media such as tv commercials, the implication that men are stupid.

I listed the insults I am familiar with and at no point claimed men don't get insulted. Different groups of people, even within the same country, speak differently. I haven't heard "stupid man" used by women. Then again you reference "tv commercials" and as I have mentioned many times in other threads I do not have cable. I watch Netflix and Amazon Prime. I don't see tv commercials so I have no frame of reference for what you're taking about. Your media consumption and thus the type of language you are exposed to is different than mine. 

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

They won't ask for directions when lost.

Stubborn isn't synonymous with stupid.

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

They can't boil water or cook anything.
The don't clean up after theselves, or do laundry properly.
They are basically useless without their better half ( a woman ).

I have honestly never heard any of those. Most famous Chefs I can think of are men. Anthony Bourdain,, Wolfgang Puck, Jose Andres, and etc comes to mind. As for the laundry and unless without their spouse stuff I suspect those are sayings from another generation and are no longer broadly used. People waiting off longer to marry and spend more time independent as young adults have changed the structure of marriage. At least it has for the people I know. 

33 minutes ago, MigL said:

I wonder, if E May had immediately made it known to J Corbyn that the comment distressed her, if he wouldn't have immediately apologized, and it may never even have made the news.

In my opinion it goes  without saying that no one likes to be called. Separately I have not call the comment sexist at any point in this thread. Rather I have simply pointed out that the way people speak does matter and that different types of people have different vocabularies. 

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22 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I have honestly never heard any of those. Most famous Chefs I can think of are men. Anthony Bourdain,, Wolfgang Puck, Jose Andres, and etc comes to mind. As for the laundry and unless without their spouse stuff I suspect those are sayings from another generation and are no longer broadly used. People waiting off longer to marry and spend more time independent as young adults have changed the structure of marriage. At least it has for the people I know. 

Most jokes I hear about men, or commercials that poke fun at men, use some version of these stereotypes. 

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6 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Actually I haven't. Culturally here in the U.S. among the people I have been around throughout my life "stupid man" isn't something I recall. I have heard a**hole and d*ck countless times. Those two slurs are pretty much always gender specific towards men. However neither challenges a man's intelligence. Both those slurs primarily criticize aggressive and pushy behavior. Gender specific  criticisms of men don't typically challenge intelligence. There are even gender specific ones that concede intelligence while criticizing other behavior like Wise Guy and Smart Aleck. 

That said different slang in prominent in different areas and we (you and I) live in different countries. So our experience will be different.

I can confirm I've heard it quite a bit from my area.

But like you said, I can virtually assure you the cultures we've grown up in are very very different.

5 hours ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

Stupid boy, as with stupid girl, is more in reference to age. Again, it is used to underscore the original insult. Which once again brings us back to stupid woman, and the contextual implications of it being gendered. I am not familiar with the use of stupid man as an insult at all, at least where I live. 

I haven't heard stupid boy/stupid girl so much as "stupid child"/"Stupid teenagers" in regards to age.

However like I told Ten Oz, I have heard "Stupid Man" said quite a few times. And, as MILG mentioned, the occasional shout in a restaurant, a toss of a glass of water, and the word "MEN!" ringing throughout as a woman leaves. Albeit he didn't include context.

50 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Stubborn isn't synonymous with stupid.

However it's a generalization of a gender, and something that isn't universal. So, according to your definitions it would be sexist either way, which I think was the implication.

51 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Then again you reference "tv commercials" and as I have mentioned many times in other threads I do not have cable. I watch Netflix and Amazon Prime. I don't see tv commercials so I have no frame of reference for what you're taking about. Your media consumption and thus the type of language you are exposed to is different than mine. 

I watch a lot of you tube, and there are a lot of advertisements like what he described.

52 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I have honestly never heard any of those. Most famous Chefs I can think of are men. Anthony Bourdain,, Wolfgang Puck, Jose Andres, and etc comes to mind. As for the laundry and unless without their spouse stuff I suspect those are sayings from another generation and are no longer broadly used. People waiting off longer to marry and spend more time independent as young adults have changed the structure of marriage. At least it has for the people I know. 

I've heard most of them.

In fact, I've even heard the phrase "You'd think that after living by himself for three years he'd be able to make a pot of spaghetti!"

 

 

 

Next question.

If in one area, the phrases "Stupid man" and "Stupid woman" are used all the time, are they both sexist?

I mean, sexist is the treating or speaking of someone differently simply because of their gender, not so much how you treat them in regards to equally.

 

Edited by Raider5678

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I'm not trying to make this about sexism towards men.
( before someone starts throwing 'false equivalences' at me )

Rather, if you go looking for sexism ( or racism, or any other kind of bigotry ) where there is none, you will find it, because it is a perceived offence, and you've already made up your mind that its there.

Why not treat everyone like a human being, don't assume the worst about them, let them know if something they said has offended you, and give them the chance to act like a human being by stopping the offending actions, or words.

If this J Corbyn guy is as straight up as our British forum members say he is, I'm sure he would have apologized, had E May voiced her objections.
But, these are just my opinions.

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3 hours ago, MigL said:

I wonder, if E May had immediately made it known to J Corbyn that the comment distressed her, if he wouldn't have immediately apologized, and it may never even have made the news.

It’s sort of damned if you damned if you don’t, but I suspect this would’ve been even worse.

She’d have been pilloried has she shown weakness and misogynists across the world would have declared her a women too weak to run the country.

“How can she govern when she’s so easily distressed by words from members of parliament?”

Even women who support her would’ve likely been upset if she did this for it would play into the weak woman stereotype. 

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