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DrmDoc

What is faith?

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Posted (edited)

Why I can not have trusted knowledge-based firm beliefs?

What is it by you Phi?

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof".

Can you give an exact proof on the future of science?

If you can not, can I believe that there is a future of science?  

Edited by FreeWill

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1 minute ago, FreeWill said:

Why I can not have trusted knowledge-based firm beliefs?

Can you give an exact proof on the future of science?

If you can not, can I believe that there is a future of science?  

Well mainly because this thread is about faith in the religious sense.. 

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44 minutes ago, Phi for All said:
1 hour ago, FreeWill said:

How can we call then the learned and trusted knowledge based firm belief which has no evidence?

Give us an example. 

How would you call this kind of firm beliefs and why it is not faith? 

I think the best if I leave this faith topic.

It is personal and every one has its own individual understanding (wiki is not clear on it either). 

Good luck with yours if you have any. 

Peace. 

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@FreeWill, I think I might know where the problem is. Firstly, English is obviously not your primary language, maybe there are nuances in your native language related to all this? Secondly, you are right that the word „faith” is used colloquially in various situations like „I have faith in science” or „I have faith in humanity” but this thread is strictly about faith in the religious sense which is very well defined, once again faith in the religious context is believing in some kind of religious system, this is perfectly clear and there is no wiggle room for interpretation.

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8 hours ago, koti said:

you are right that the word „faith” is used colloquially in various situations like „I have faith in science” or „I have faith in humanity” but this thread is strictly about faith in the religious sense

For me, the opening post was about to settle what faith is and its relation to science.  

 
 
 
On 4/29/2018 at 2:39 PM, DrmDoc said:

what is faith and why do you have it? 

My perusal of discussions here suggested to me that some of you do not seem to have a clear perspective of what distinguishes faith from science.  Most often arguments against science are used as justification for faith; however, those arguments do not appear to define a basis for your religious faith. 

What have you observed, experienced, or accomplished that supports your faith?  Is that support tangible? 

My argument was that both require some level of trust and believe. I tried to reason it with examples where to find trust and believe is in science and why to live to learn requires a level of faith.  

Religion requires trust in misinterpreted evidence to gain belief, while science requires trust in the methodology and some level of belief in the future outcome.   

Please note that no one will be religious Christian without hearing about it or reading the Bible, i.e without "evidence" there is no belief in the Christian religion. 

There are many things we can firmly believe in without actual evidence and I think each of those beliefs will require some level of trust. 

 

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Posted (edited)

@FreeWill, There is no point in discussing if you don't know the meaning of the words you use and/or use the words in different meaning than they actually have. 

To the mods: I can't quote FreeWill in the above post, I'm not even able to copy with mouse and cursor what he wrote above. I think @studiot had a problem like this before, is this a feature or a bug?

Edited by koti

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, koti said:

@FreeWill, There is no point in discussing if you don't know the meaning of the words you use and/or use the words in different meaning than they actually have.

This I could say it to you. Honestly, I do not understand why you try to participate when you have almost nothing to say. Finally, we could have a discussion about the topic rather than scoffing with the meaning of words which you are clearly not aware of yourself. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/faith

Faith: great trust or confidence in something or someone

Faith in American English: a high degree of trust or confidence in something or someone

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/trust

Trust: to believe that someone is good and honest and will not harm you, or that something is safe and reliable:

Trust: the belief that you can trust someone or something

 

I think I know the meaning of the words and looks like it is supported to use them to explain one another. (i.e synonymic) 

I do not see that by the Cambridge Dictionaries definition, faith cannot exist if there is evidence. 

Edited by FreeWill

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, FreeWill said:

This I could say it to you. Honestly, I do not understand why you try to participate when you have almost nothing to say. Finally, we could have a discussion about the topic rather than scoffing with the meaning of words which you are clearly not aware of yourself. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/faith

Faith: great trust or confidence in something or someone

Faith in American English: a high degree of trust or confidence in something or someone

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/trust

Trust: to believe that someone is good and honest and will not harm you, or that something is safe and reliable:

Trust: the belief that you can trust someone or something

 

I think I know the meaning of the words and looks like it is supported to use them to explain one another. (i.e synonymic) 

I do not see that by the Cambridge Dictionaries definition, faith cannot exist if there is evidence. 

I know you think you know the meaning of words but you don’t. How many times do you need to have something repeated to yourself to understand it?

In the context of religion, one can define faith as confidence or trust in a particular system of religious belief:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

I’ve tried multiple times to explain this to you in a civil, friendly manner and it seems its not working. Get it through your thick skull that everybody in this thread is talking about faith in the context of religion. 

 

@FreeWill

Stevie Wonder has a song called „Faith” does that mean that faith is a song by Stevie Wonder? What will it take for you to understand?

Edited by koti

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5 hours ago, FreeWill said:
5 hours ago, FreeWill said:

For me, the opening post was about to settle what faith is and its relation to science.

DrmDoc said:

"...some of you do not seem to have a clear perspective of what distinguishes faith from science Most often arguments against science are used as justification for faith; however, those arguments do not appear to define a basis for your religious faith." 

For clarity, I've highlighted the portions of my original comments pertaining to the origin of this discussion.  Certainly one may have faith in science--which is confidence in its methodology without any real objective evidence or experience or need for same--but then that would be a type of religion and not science in it's purest form as generally understood in this forum--IMO. 

Faith, in its purest form is religion, which is a believe system that does not need or require material evidence or support as science methodology requires or demands for validity.  To have faith, IMO, is to have confidence, trust, or belief without any real or reproducible basis in material evidence or experience.  Although it doesn't offer the legitimacy of science, faith appears to be a useful tool to individuals engaging the uncertainties of life with inadequate awareness, experience, understanding, or curiosity.  Of these, I think inadequate curiosity does the most harm because of the doors to profound insight a lack of curiosity could leave unopened.     

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, DrmDoc said:

To have faith, IMO, is to have confidence, trust, or belief without any real or reproducible basis in material evidence or experience.

This sounds more like delusion to me. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/delusion

delusion: belief in something that is not true

delusion (American English): something a person believes and wants to be true, when it is actually not true

Edited by FreeWill

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1 hour ago, FreeWill said:

This sounds more like delusion to me. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/delusion

delusion: belief in something that is not true

delusion (American English): something a person believes and wants to be true, when it is actually not true

Again, this is the problem with just looking words up in dictionaries. 

"Religious faith" and "religious delusion" are not synonyms.

The first is the subject of this thread. The second might be what some people think of religion (and hence is off topic).

Stop trying to derail the thread with your misrepresentation of the meanings of the words being used in this context.

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2 hours ago, FreeWill said:

This sounds more like delusion to me. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/delusion

delusion: belief in something that is not true

delusion (American English): something a person believes and wants to be true, when it is actually not true

There's a subtle distinction between belief in something that isn't true (delusion) and belief in something without evidence of truth.  If you are deluded, you believe in something that is provably false.  Conversely, if you're a person of faith, you're a believer in something that isn't proved.  Admittedly, this distinction is slight but it remains the difference between evidence and lack of evidence.

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On 5/18/2019 at 8:05 PM, Moontanman said:
On 5/18/2019 at 3:39 PM, dimreepr said:

Faith is trust backwards, whilst everything moves forwards.

But that doesn't mean we should be down on the faithful because we trust the future...

You are conflating trust and faith, as usual you continue to obfuscate the issue...

No, I'm suggesting they're inextricably linked, you trust the past explanations to inform a future which you can only have faith in.

I'm not suggesting a supernatural cause, I'm suggesting a very human one. 

On 5/18/2019 at 5:28 PM, Phi for All said:

Not me. You admonished FreeWill ("I didn't say that") when he was quoting zapatos, not you. Or did you think he was zapatos?

Yep: :blink::doh:

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3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

No, I'm suggesting they're inextricably linked, you trust the past explanations to inform a future which you can only have faith in.

I'm not suggesting a supernatural cause, I'm suggesting a very human one. 

Yep: :blink::doh:

I have no faith in the future that is not simply extrapolating from past experiences. Again why does this matter in this thread? This thread is about religious faith and I lack faith, I am a skeptic but mostly I am an apistevist, I lack faith, I require evidence before I trust or believe.  

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27 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I have no faith in the future that is not simply extrapolating from past experiences. Again why does this matter in this thread? This thread is about religious faith and I lack faith, I am a skeptic but mostly I am an apistevist, I lack faith, I require evidence before I trust or believe.  

I just read someones definition of the word "apistevist" since I didn't know what it means. I think I'm going to just stick with being an atheist and a pessimist:
 

Apistevist: A person who does not use faith to know things-especially in the religious sense.

Atheist: A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

So the difference should be immediately obvious… most notably, they are not exclusive.

  • An atheist could still be religious, so long as their religious faith did not involve any form of deity. Such a person could then claim knowledge or belief as a result of their faith, without ever admitting to the existence of any deity. (This is admittedly an extremely rare scenario, but it is still possible.)
  • An apistevist can absolutely believe in deities, while still choosing to base their knowledge on hard facts and evidence. A scientist who believes there is some form of God that created the universe, but who bases all of their knowledge about the universe on science and observation, would quality as an apistevist but not an atheist. (Unlike the previous scenario, this one is actually pretty common.)

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7 hours ago, koti said:

I just read someones definition of the word "apistevist" since I didn't know what it means. I think I'm going to just stick with being an atheist and a pessimist:
 

Apistevist: A person who does not use faith to know things-especially in the religious sense.

Atheist: A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

So the difference should be immediately obvious… most notably, they are not exclusive.

  • An atheist could still be religious, so long as their religious faith did not involve any form of deity. Such a person could then claim knowledge or belief as a result of their faith, without ever admitting to the existence of any deity. (This is admittedly an extremely rare scenario, but it is still possible.)
  • An apistevist can absolutely believe in deities, while still choosing to base their knowledge on hard facts and evidence. A scientist who believes there is some form of God that created the universe, but who bases all of their knowledge about the universe on science and observation, would quality as an apistevist but not an atheist. (Unlike the previous scenario, this one is actually pretty common.)

My atheism led me to be an apistevist... I never suggested they are exclusive... 

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6 hours ago, Moontanman said:

My atheism led me to be an apistevist... I never suggested they are exclusive... 

My mistake, somehow I assumed they are. 

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19 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I have no faith in the future that is not simply extrapolating from past experiences. Again why does this matter in this thread? This thread is about religious faith and I lack faith, I am a skeptic but mostly I am an apistevist, I lack faith, I require evidence before I trust or believe.  

That seems like a horrible way to live, no lucky pants, no fingers crossed and no friends till they prove themselves worthy.

4 hours ago, koti said:

My mistake, somehow I assumed they are.

They are in a way, an unnatural way; my point has always been that we all have faith somewhere on its continuum (unless we're unfortunate) and faith doesn't = bad, until we look down on those who have less, or more, than us; which is kind of natural for humans. 

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9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That seems like a horrible way to live, no lucky pants, no fingers crossed and no friends till they prove themselves worthy.

I think you might be mixing faith with hope.

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Just now, DrP said:

I think you might be mixing faith with hope.

Just another word in the mix...

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Posted (edited)
Just now, dimreepr said:

Just another word in the mix...

but they mean 2 different things.

Edited by DrP

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Do they? In the context my posts, hope is just as entwined with trust as faith.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, DrP said:

but they mean 2 different things.

Not as long as Dim can make up his own definitions... 

 

21 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That seems like a horrible way to live, no lucky pants, no fingers crossed and no friends till they prove themselves worthy.

Yes I gave a down vote for making assumptions about me you have no right or clue to say... 

21 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

They are in a way, an unnatural way; my point has always been that we all have faith somewhere on its continuum (unless we're unfortunate) and faith doesn't = bad, until we look down on those who have less, or more, than us; which is kind of natural for humans. 

Faith is not a path to knowledge and it is no better than thinking lady luck is gonna make you win the lotto... 

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Do they? In the context my posts, hope is just as entwined with trust as faith.

Again your context is meaningless, this thread is about religious faith, please stop trying to derail the thread... 

Edited by Moontanman

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1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

Yes I gave a down vote for making assumptions about me you have no right or clue to say... 

Thanks, it kinda proves my point.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Thanks, it kinda proves my point.

What point? That your argument indicates you are an asshole? yes it proves that point quite well... 

Edited by Moontanman

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