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cheetaman

There were millions white slaves, There were not only black slaves.

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Moorish ruled Spain, 711-1492, 781 years.
Islam in Spain, Wikipedia

There were 4 million Spanish slaves.

 

After Spain gained it freedom, Africans still took 1 million Spanish slaves for another 250 years (1530 to 1780).

The greatest Spanish writer, Cervantes was a slave in Algiers, he was ransomed.

 

In the "Song of Roland", the Moors were described as "Blacker than ink with large noses and ears" and with "nothing white except the teeth."

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What does this have to do with politics? 

There have always been slaves of all races and colours. 

What did you want to discuss? The history of slavery in different countries? I'm surprised you haven't mentioned ancient China...

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This stuff is hardly news. Even the popes had white slaves.

I remember being taught as a child that one of the popes was so impressed by the good looks of a new batch of British slaves, that he asked where they were from. When told that they were Angles, he remarked, "more like angels". 

I was taught that in a Catholic school lesson. ( so it might be rubbish )

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When i've seen this point raised before it usually stems from someone not realising slavery has a history much longer than the trans-atlantic slave trade. Which is odd as many of them are Christians and there's a whole bit in the old testament about the Jewish being slaves in Egypt, but whatever. When they learn this they somehow think it mitigates the African slave trade. Similar thing happens when they learn many African slaves were sold to Europeans by better off Africans. Is this what the OP is driving at?

Neither of these facts make slavery more acceptable, and if before you though slavery was something only Europeans did then you need some history lessons.

And let's not forget that modern day slavery is a thing - even countries like the UK are still of full of slaves.

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27 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

And let's not forget that modern day slavery is a thing - even countries like the UK are still of full of slaves.

Not legally. What slaves are you talking about in the UK? Sounds like rubbish to me. I read a few years back that some gypsies had taken some immigrants into forced labor so they could get better profits from their building companies. They'd use the immigrants that were here illegally and feed them enough to stay alive and then housed them in a shed or something and forced them to work for nothing building driveways and things in exchange for being fed, sheltered and protection from being beaten. They were not allowed to leave and were essentially slaves. You get horrific shit in every country of the world, but slavery in the UK? Pretty sure it isn't wide spread enough to state that we are 'full of slaves' -  any sources for that?

 

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23 minutes ago, DrP said:

Not legally. What slaves are you talking about in the UK? Sounds like rubbish to me. I read a few years back that some gypsies had taken some immigrants into forced labor so they could get better profits from their building companies. They'd use the immigrants that were here illegally and feed them enough to stay alive and then housed them in a shed or something and forced them to work for nothing building driveways and things in exchange for being fed, sheltered and protection from being beaten. They were not allowed to leave and were essentially slaves. You get horrific shit in every country of the world, but slavery in the UK? Pretty sure it isn't wide spread enough to state that we are 'full of slaves' -  any sources for that?

 

Of course not legally, but when has that stopped unscrupulous criminals

You just described one type of slavery in the UK. Sexual exploitation of immigrants by gangs is another. As you can imagine accurate statistics are hard to get, this site says about 4000 potential in the UK in 2016. I'd classify 4000 as 'full of slavery' by the standards we should have for our society but that's a subjective call

But sounds like rubbish? Sounds naive to think so.

 

This government document has the number at 10000 - 13000 potential slaves. At least the government is taking it seriously. 

Edited by Prometheus

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1 hour ago, Prometheus said:

When they learn this they somehow think it mitigates the African slave trade. 

Also known as "what-aboutism".

I do wonder if that was the OP's point. But I am never sure what the OP's point is ... :)

 

Edited by Strange

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1 minute ago, Strange said:

Also known as "what-aboutism".

Didn't know it had a name, thanks. Unfortunately that must mean it's prevalent enough to warrant a name.

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2 hours ago, cheetaman said:

Moorish ruled Spain, 711-1492, 781 years.
Islam in Spain, Wikipedia

There were 4 million Spanish slaves.

 

After Spain gained it freedom, Africans still took 1 million Spanish slaves for another 250 years (1530 to 1780).

The greatest Spanish writer, Cervantes was a slave in Algiers, he was ransomed.

 

In the "Song of Roland", the Moors were described as "Blacker than ink with large noses and ears" and with "nothing white except the teeth."

!

Moderator Note

And what of it?

You need to stop posting factoids without a clear discussion point being identified. 

This is not your blog. It is not a place to pontificate, or blow smoke, or rant.

 

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19 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

Didn't know it had a name, thanks. Unfortunately that must mean it's prevalent enough to warrant a name.

It seems to have increased massively in the Trump Era:

"Trump has admitted to molesting women"

"What about Bill?"

"Trump colluded with the Russians"

"What about Hilary?"

"Trump lies all the time"

"What about Pinocchio?"

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

Even the popes had white slaves.

Worse than that - they cut their balls off.

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1 hour ago, Prometheus said:

You just described one type of slavery in the UK. Sexual exploitation of immigrants by gangs is another. As you can imagine accurate statistics are hard to get, this site says about 4000 potential in the UK in 2016. I'd classify 4000 as 'full of slavery' by the standards we should have for our society but that's a subjective call

But sounds like rubbish? Sounds naive to think so.

 

This government document has the number at 10000 - 13000 potential slaves. At least the government is taking it seriously. 

This sexual slavery happens all over the world - You are making it sound like it is unique to the UK...  I would wager that is worse in many other places. I'd look into it but it sickens me I can't be arsed. How do we compare to the USA with regard to sexual slavery? 4000 people doesn't sound like we are 'full' of them as you put it....  and of course it is good that the government is taking it seriously and taking steps to eradicate it - it is despicable. 

Saying this - I do agree with most of what you said in your 1st post  -  the OP seems rather irrelevant and it makes you wonder about what his point is.

 

Does the US even have a min wage policy? - I bet it's peanuts even if you have it. Tipping is great - (as a TIP/top up and a bonus for good service offered) but not if that is you only source of income  -  legal slavery imo - pay the poor people enough to live on in the first place. 

 

Edited by DrP
grammar

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6 minutes ago, DrP said:

This sexual slavery happens all over the world - You are making it sound like it is unique to the UK...  I would wager that is worse in many other places. I'd look into it but it sickens me I can't be arsed. How do we compare to the USA with regard to sexual slavery?

I'm British. I know nothing about the US. I'm sure the UK does better than most places in the world, hence i said 'even countries like the UK.' You asked for sources, there's 3 if you want to look into it.  "You may choose to look the other way but you can never say again that you did not know."

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13 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

"You may choose to look the other way but you can never say again that you did not know."

I am aware that that shit happens all over the world and have heard that there was an increase here too... Nothing I can personally do about it except boycott the brothels that use slaves...  I heard about one getting closed recently - good.  Although as a single man the idea of paying someone doesn't disgust me at all....  the idea that they are forced really really does. I have never used any service like that and probably never will. 

I am sure (or at least I hope) that this will be further clamped down on - it is obviously not tolerated when it is discovered. Many people (right wingers especially) would use this as a chance to get a dig in about immigrants and how our standards have dropped by allowing such an increase in the influx of them... this is just bound to happen though and will be stamped out in the end goodness willing.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, DrP said:

This sexual slavery happens all over the world  

!

Moderator Note

To the extent the OP has a point to discuss, it was about legal slavery. Pointing out that illegal slavery still happens seems to me to be missing the point.

 

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With regard to OP, there are a few things that make American chattel slavery somewhat unique. For example, OP decries that not all slaves were black and that is certainly true. However, the transatlantic slave trade was clearly a race-based system. It was closely connected to the idea of distinct human races to justify the use of inferior savages as property. Moreover, the system was hereditary which, while not unique, was not terribly common, either.

It should also be noted that under the Arab slave trade, while slaves were not necessarily treated well, they had a variety of societal functions with varying paths to freedom and/or significant levels of status.That is not to diminish the cruelty of either system, just to acknowledge that a direct comparison makes little sense.

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50 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It should also be noted that under the Arab slave trade, while slaves were not necessarily treated well, they had a variety of societal functions with varying paths to freedom and/or significant levels of status.

This was true in Rome as well. Slaves had rights protected by law and could take their owners to court for redress.

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6 minutes ago, Strange said:

This was true in Rome as well. Slaves had rights protected by law and could take their owners to court for redress.

Yes, I was specifically addressing OP, but throughout history there were many different forms of slavery with vastly different rules. In some cases slave castes wielded significant amount of power e.g. by working as administrators or military personnel under certain rulers. But this only highlights the fact that a direct comparison without contextualization is at best misleading.

1 hour ago, swansont said:
!

Moderator Note

To the extent the OP has a point to discuss, it was about legal slavery. Pointing out that illegal slavery still happens seems to me to be missing the point.

 

So, one could discuss the scope of what is considered slavery. If we define it as involuntary servitude, part of the 13th Amendment is an interesting case. It states that:

Quote

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Effectively it extended slavery in Southern US under the convict lease system, for example. While abolished, in modern penal systems it is still allowed to use forced labor, though from what I understand the prisoner would need to be paid. But usually only meagerly. In addition there are articles that argue that exempting prisoners from the 13th Amendment's leads to the protection of prisoners and guards to abuse other prisoners as sexual slaves.

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21 hours ago, swansont said:
!

Moderator Note

To the extent the OP has a point to discuss, it was about legal slavery. Pointing out that illegal slavery still happens seems to me to be missing the point.

 

My comment was in reply to someone that said that there was slavery alive today in the UK  -  I pointed out that this was illegal (so not relevant to the OP)....  which seems to echo your point.  Maybe you meant to direct this comment towards the posts I was replying to rather than mine? i.e. post #3.

 

On 4/6/2018 at 12:06 PM, Prometheus said:

And let's not forget that modern day slavery is a thing - even countries like the UK are still of full of slaves.

it was this comment  -  as you said in your moderation comment, the slavery here is totally illegal and not tolerated at all, so not really relevant to the OP as you pointed out  -  echoing my point - thanks.

being honest I am not sure what point the OP is trying to make.

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1 hour ago, DrP said:

being honest I am not sure what point the OP is trying to make.

Given their posting history, chances are good that neither is the OP himself.

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Quote

There were millions white slaves,

Even Julius Caesar was slave.. he was captured by pirates.. had to pay 50 talents ransom..

 

"On the way across the Aegean Sea, Caesar was kidnapped by pirates and held prisoner. He maintained an attitude of superiority throughout his captivity. The pirates demanded a ransom of 20 talents of silver, but he insisted that they ask for 50. After the ransom was paid, Caesar raised a fleet, pursued and captured the pirates, and imprisoned them. He had them crucified on his own authority, as he had promised while in captivity—a promise that the pirates had taken as a joke. As a sign of leniency, he first had their throats cut. He was soon called back into military action in Asia, raising a band of auxiliaries to repel an incursion from the east."

 

On 6.04.2018 at 1:06 PM, Prometheus said:

even countries like the UK are still of full of slaves.

Economic slaves.. They can't quit unwanted job because of credits, bills, etc. etc.

I wish the all people job they love to do.. so they would love to go to work, not hate..

If you love your work, money is not needed as reward.

 

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4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Economic slaves.. They can't quit unwanted job because of credits, bills, etc. etc.

No. Real slaves.

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

If you love your work, money is not needed as reward.

You can't get fat on love-of-your-job, that's for sure.

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58 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Economic slaves.. They can't quit unwanted job because of credits, bills, etc. etc.

2

There's a huge difference between not wanting too and not being able too

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

I wish the all people job they love to do.. so they would love to go to work, not hate.

Guess which side love is on?

 

Spoiler alert, I'd love to have a choice.

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On 4/6/2018 at 7:41 PM, Strange said:

What does this have to do with politics? 

There have always been slaves of all races and colours. 

What did you want to discuss? The history of slavery in different countries? I'm surprised you haven't mentioned ancient China...

I am a person full of knowledge. I will talk about this topic ( "I'm surprised you haven't mentioned ancient China.") as you required.

Edited by cheetaman

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52 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

I am a person full of knowledge

Then why do you ask so many profoundly stupid questions that could be answered with 5 seconds searching on the web?

54 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

I will talk about this topic ( "I'm surprised you haven't mentioned ancient China.") as you required.

I don't require it at all. I just expected, given your previous stupid rants about China.

How about explaining what the point of this thread was?

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1 hour ago, cheetaman said:

I am a person full of knowledge. I will talk about this topic ( "I'm surprised you haven't mentioned ancient China.") as you required.

!

Moderator Note

This misses the point. If you wish to expound on some topic, go start up a blog somewhere. This is a science discussion forum — a place for people to ask questions and have others answer, or for concepts to be discussed.

Not a place for someone to spontaneously share their dubious knowledge of a topic. That's soapboxing, and is against the rules.

 

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