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how to turn a believer


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1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

Context is quite obvious, as almost anyone on this forum would argue.

If you take only a portion of what is said and drop the rest of the section in order to portray a subject in a different light, it's taking it out of context.

You can add more context to mine, and it'll support what I said. You add more context to the Thinking Atheists contradictions, and it contradicts him.

 

Damn dude, it's a book written by humans who had an agenda, an agenda 2500 years dead at least, from kill anyone who works on the sabbath to a world wide flood the entire text is fiction and often written to allow horribly twisted crimes against other humans to be justified... 

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The Bible itself, the churches, the faiths (belief systems, like yours specialising in science instead of humanity) and a whole lot more are evidence. Your claim is not just false, but hypocritical. S

I would say "Anyone who studies the bible 'for long enough' will soon see that it is full of holes"   If it IS the word of god, then this god make a lot of mistakes and is pretty harsh. It clearly i

There is one fundamental difference - physical evidence. Evidence of the senses. I am appalled that somebody cannot see this.   The expression "belief in science" attempts to place science on the sa

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19 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Damn dude, it's a book written by humans who had an agenda, an agenda 2500 years dead at least, from kill anyone who works on the sabbath to a world wide flood the entire text is fiction and often written to allow horribly twisted crimes against other humans to be justified... 

Horribly twisted crimes against other humans during that time was literally the norm.

It wasn't just one nation doing so. 

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16 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Horribly twisted crimes against other humans during that time was literally the norm.

It wasn't just one nation doing so. 

And that makes it ok how exactly? God should not only have known better he should have done better, much better. The only thing I can honestly say about god or gods is that that he/she/they ignore everyone equally,...

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35 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

And that makes it ok how exactly? God should not only have known better he should have done better, much better. The only thing I can honestly say about god or gods is that that he/she/they ignore everyone equally,...

The people that had these things done to them, had done the same things to the previous inhabitants of the land.

They sacrificed their children as well.

 

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1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

The people that had these things done to them, had done the same things to the previous inhabitants of the land.

They sacrificed their children as well.

 

Did you just imply that children sacrificed their own children?

2 hours ago, Prometheus said:

Maybe the value of stories is best explored on the sociology/psychology section?

Probably. Definitely off topic here :)

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1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

The people that had these things done to them, had done the same things to the previous inhabitants of the land.

They sacrificed their children as well.

 

Again why does this make it ok and not a contradiction to what you seem to indicate these religious texts are part of? If they are instructions from God why didn't he just say things like slavery, genocide, rape, pillage, war and others were just wrong instead of not just allowing them but demanding them? These very contradictions that are excused so easily by believers is why i cannot be one anymore... 

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On 2/26/2018 at 1:38 PM, NortonH said:

I think beecee, above, is correct. 

Faith and religion is outside the reach of science and so cannot be tackled. If I say I believe in some entity beyond the universe how do you prove me wrong? You cannot.

 

What I actually mean, is that religion and any form of intelligent design claim, is supernatural and/or paranormal in content and as such are simply unscientific reasonings or claims: eg: while we all agree the theory of evolution is fact according to the overwhelming indisputable evidence available, the theory of how life started universally, can only really be answered by one means....Abiogenesis, even though as yet no evidence is forthcoming.It is factually the only answer...Life from non life: We are all star stuff to quote the great Carl Sagan. Any supernatural answer is unscientific 

Edited by beecee
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3 hours ago, beecee said:

religion... is supernatural and/or paranormal in content

I don't think supernatural is a defining feature if religion. At my temple some people believe some crazy things and some don't, but we all meditate for a while, consider some writing from a monk, and do some bowing and some chanting. Are half of us practicing religion and the other half not?

I think it's an important topic for a few reasons.

A supernatural definition will exclude practices which are generally considered religions: Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism in particular (not that any of these don't contain plenty of of supernatural elements - but if you removed them enough of the religion would remain intact for practice to continue much as it has done). If a definition is at odds with how the vast majority of the world use that word, then the definition should change - this is how dictionary definitions are constructed, bottom-up not top-down.

By defining religion as supernatural, every practitioner is already labelled negatively. It's not a great place to start a conversation and puts people's backs up against a wall - much how religious people claiming 'heathens immortal souls will burn in eternal hellfire' puts the backs up of many non-religious people before the conversation has even begun. 

There is some wisdom in the various religions. By simply labelling all religion as supernatural, and therefore untrue or crackpot etc., it becomes much more likely that people will miss it. There are other sources of wisdom for sure, but i don't think there is so much in the world that we can ignore any of it, yet.

 

On 2/26/2018 at 2:26 AM, NortonH said:

Science cannot defeat something which is an axiom of faith.

Case in point. Why frame this in terms of defeat, surely we all just want to get closer to the truth, not win. It belies a level of immaturity when investigating your world and the desire for your viewpoint to be the 'winner'. The most depressing thing is that such little nuggets of wisdom are what religion is supposed to encourage,  yet time and time again religions fail abjectly in this. How many examples of religions failing humanity do you need? How blind to the suffering it can cause must you be not to even begin to try to change it?

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1 hour ago, Prometheus said:

 How blind to the suffering it can cause must you be not to even begin to try to change it?

Exactly  -  I gave up making excuse after excuse for god a few years back.

I know I have said it before but it is relevant to this line of discussion.  It has only been illegal to rape your spouse in the UK for the last 20 years or since we entered the EU and took their laws.  This law, or rather  lack of laws previously banning it, was kept in place due to religious (mis)beliefs and the power the church obviously still held sway over government. Now we are out of the EU I wonder if they will try to dig their hooks back into our politics - I hope not. I want education and equal rights for my women. I want social care for the poor (not left to charity). I want our most up to date understandings of the world taught in schools, not backwards myths from thousands of years ago.

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6 minutes ago, Itoero said:

Why do people think there is no God because there is a lot of suffering?

Because most religions define god as all good and omnipotent not to mention all good and loving..  

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8 minutes ago, Itoero said:

Do old earth creationists believe that also?

I'm not sure what they believe  -  each one believes their own different mythological wonderings/ramblings. Seeing they have absolutely no evidence for the nonsense they are spouting who cares really?

Edited by DrP
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God is just an obstacle in these debates:

Anyone who believes is literally tied to the Bible, because of that belief, so they ignore the contradictions and BS and consequently, the little nuggets of wisdom.

Anyone who doesn't believe feels completely vindicated in dismissing the Bible, because of that belief, so they concentrate on the contradictions and BS and ignore the little nuggets of wisdom.

Religions aren't responsible for either position, but people are.

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On ‎27‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 11:21 AM, DrP said:

It has only been illegal to rape your spouse in the UK for the last 20 years or since we entered the EU and took their laws.  This law, or rather  lack of laws previously banning it, was kept in place due to religious (mis)beliefs and the power the church obviously still held sway over government.

There is so much injustice in this world, and laws will never stop injustice. Millions of people have gone to their grave having suffered, if there is no God, then these people will never find justice or peace.

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1 minute ago, Eric H said:

There is so much injustice in this world, and laws will never stop injustice. Millions of people have gone to their grave having suffered, if there is no God, then these people will never find justice or peace.

Maybe they found the peace of non-existence when they died. And justice became irrelevant to them at that point.

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10 minutes ago, Eric H said:

There is so much injustice in this world, and laws will never stop injustice. Millions of people have gone to their grave having suffered, if there is no God, then these people will never find justice or peace.

 

How does their peace or suffering impact you? I'm not being heartless, I'm being pragmatic because the existence of God, equally, doesn't impact you. 

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7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How does their peace or suffering impact you? I'm not being heartless,

Other people's peace has little impact on me, other than I am pleased they seem content with their lives. I feel deeply disturbed at man's inhumanity to man, I come into contact with a lot of injustice and suffering.

As you say, the impact of God may not have a direct affect on me, but we are asked to treat everyone as if they are God. You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God, especially the poor and marginalised. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Eric H said:

but we are asked to treat everyone as if they are God. 

 

We don't need to be asked, just be nice, isn't that what you want from others?

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51 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How do you argue Pascal's wager?

I've heard several people here in Belgium that agree with this...it was on the radio a couple days ago.  They consider believing in God the rational choice, regardless if he exists or not. My problem with Pascal's wager is that that implies believing in a personal God.(a deity who can be related to as a person) I deny the existence of a personal god since it rise countless more questions. I do think the belief in an impersonal force which can be called Ietsism (Somethingism)i is more a rational choice.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ietsism

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