imatfaal Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 That's the number of people killed so far this year by police in the USA - well it was when the original Guardian article was written. In the intervening days it has gone up to 519 The Counted Every state in the US fails to comply with international standards on the lethal use of force by law enforcement officers, according to a report by Amnesty International USA, which also says 13 US states fall beneath even lower legal standards enshrined in US constitutional law and that nine states currently have no laws at all to deal with the issue. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/18/us-states-police-use-of-force-standards-amnesty The full report is herehttp://www.amnesty.org.uk/webfm_send/1515 For the first time on US soil, we sent a team to observe human rights abuses during the protests between police and the St Louis community.The police response was heavy-handed and violent. Brutal methods such as tear gas and rubber bullets were used to suppress the protests. http://www.amnesty.org.uk/deadly-force-police-violence-usa#.VYLBrflVhBd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 To compare, according to UK police statistics in England and Wales between April 1st 2013 and 31st March 2014 there were no fatal shooting by Police officers. The statistics for 2014/2015 are due out next month. https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Deaths_Report_1314.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 To compare, according to UK police statistics in England and Wales between April 1st 2013 and 31st March 2014 there were no fatal shooting by Police officers. The statistics for 2014/2015 are due out next month. https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Deaths_Report_1314.pdf A grand total of about 70 people have been killed by UK police since 1920, one every 16 months, averaged. There's even a wiki page with nearly all the names, dates and places. It really puts us at a severe disadvantage not having guns to protect ourselves with, doesn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 A relevant point is the deaths of police officers in the US this year : 9/11 related illness: 3Accidental: 1Assault: 1Automobile accident: 15Gunfire: 14Gunfire (Accidental): 2Heart attack: 11Motorcycle accident: 1Struck by vehicle: 3Vehicle pursuit: 3Vehicular assault: 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 To compare, according to UK police statistics in England and Wales between April 1st 2013 and 31st March 2014 there were no fatal shooting by Police officers. The statistics for 2014/2015 are due out next month. https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Deaths_Report_1314.pdf What make this comparison of statistics worse is that the Independent Police Complaints Commission publishes this information - whereas the information in the USA is provided by media sources (my figure was from the Guardian's website as linked) as there is no central authority that provides the information. It is almost as if they were hoping that if they didn't publish the information that no one would notice how bad the problem was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danijel Gorupec Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I am not getting what is suggested by OP - that police is brutal or that there are deeper problems in society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 To compare, according to UK police statistics in England and Wales between April 1st 2013 and 31st March 2014 there were no fatal shooting by Police officers. The statistics for 2014/2015 are due out next month. https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Deaths_Report_1314.pdf Too bad the US doesn't officially keep track. We have to cobble together numbers from news stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 ^In other words, the actual numbers are higher and hidden. Freedom, woot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I think the problem is a bit further upstream. If guns weren't allowed at all in the US, we might be able to have an unarmed police force, and reduce these types of deaths along with many, many others. But without that, there's no way we could come close to numbers in the UK. And of course, the whole sell-the-guns/drugs, hire-more-police, build-more-prisons, take-away-the-guns/drugs, sell-the-guns/drugs cycle employs a lot of people, and encompasses many sectors of our society. That's why our own police aren't going to publish bad things about themselves, it's just poor marketing. We lead the world in prisons and prison-related economy. What would these people do without guns (other than being safer)? But I can see what this really is. We put the right to bear arms in the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution because we were afraid of giving our government the power over us that the British had. And now you English lords want to take our guns away again, and leave the poor US completely defenseless against you taking back the colonies. Well think again. We're not about to let our fears be diluted over time by a reasoned and rational perspective. Our fears are too important to us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Too bad the US doesn't officially keep track. We have to cobble together numbers from news stories. ^In other words, the actual numbers are higher and hidden. Freedom, woot! Why do we keep talking about this and keep being shocked and wring our hands in despair?! I'll have get in touch with Pope Francis and see if he can rattle some more US cages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) I think the problem is a bit further upstream. If guns weren't allowed at all in the US, we might be able to have an unarmed police force, and reduce these types of deaths along with many, many others. But without that, there's no way we could come close to numbers in the UK.Not that you were implying otherwise, but there are clearly extant solutions between our current state of affairs and guns not being allowed at all in the US. Edited June 18, 2015 by iNow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Too bad the US doesn't officially keep track. We have to cobble together numbers from news stories. It just struck me, with CharonY's post: they know exactly how many policeman are killed/died and how. If that's not iniquitous I don't know what is. Also, not having the numbers of killed citizens makes it look like they don't care. Edited June 18, 2015 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endy0816 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 How unified are the reporting laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Obama is in the same place we've just been discussing: : "At some point, we as a country have to reckon with the fact that this type of massacre does not happen in other advanced countries". http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33190735 Edited June 18, 2015 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitforufo Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) But I can see what this really is. We put the right to bear arms in the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution because we were afraid of giving our government the power over us that the British had. And now you English lords want to take our guns away again, and leave the poor US completely defenseless against you taking back the colonies. Well think again. We're not about to let our fears be diluted over time by a reasoned and rational perspective. Our fears are too important to us. As a culture we have decided that we love our liberty more than our lives. We understand that this experiment in self government depends on the belief that our liberty is more important than our own lives. We accept the price that must be paid for liberty. We find nothing primitive in it. It is not just English lords that want our liberty. All government seeks to limit liberty. The second amendment exist to remind our own government who really has the power. Why do you think that those that want more government also want to take our guns away? What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. – Thomas Jefferson Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin I could come up with quotes like this all day, but what would be the point? Our love of liberty at the expense of our own lives is woven into the fabric of our DNA. It is who we are as Americans. Edited June 18, 2015 by waitforufo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 As a culture we have decided that we love our liberty more than our lives. We understand that this experiment in self government depends on the belief that our liberty is more important than our own lives. We accept the price that must be paid for liberty. We find nothing primitive in it. I is not just English lords that want our liberty. All government seeks to limit liberty. The second amendment exist to remind government who really has the power. Why do you think that those that want more government also want to take our guns away? Why is it we can laud Ronald Reagan for a socio-economic solution to the dangers of the Soviet Union, yet still think it would be a good idea for citizens to take up arms against our corrupt government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitforufo Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Why is it we can laud Ronald Reagan for a socio-economic solution to the dangers of the Soviet Union, yet still think it would be a good idea for citizens to take up arms against our corrupt government? Why is it that you think human beings have changed since the founding of the United States? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtone Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 It is not just English lords that want our liberty. All government seeks to limit liberty. The second amendment exist to remind our own government who really has the power. Why do you think that those that want more government also want to take our guns away? The two biggest expansions of the US government since WWII were by Ronald Reagan and George W Bush. Who worries you more: the people Fox News tells you want big government to run your life and take away your guns, or the people actually expanding government into running your life and actually confiscating your guns whenever they want to? Here's the mainstream Democratic Party take on the gun confiscation after Katrina, for example: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/11/21/412007/-Blackwater-The-Great-Dismal-Swamp-Part-III-Katrina# And look at this: "Wants more government / More government" You do realize your political crowd is directly responsible for the "more government" as pictured, right? That's your contribution to the scene there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I see a lot of assertions that seem more than a little far fetched to say the least. Comparing the Culture of the USA to the UK seems more than a bit like comparing apples and grapes. I doubt guns were ever as wide spread in the UK in the hands of private citizens, guns have been a big part of american culture from the beginning then there is the Mythology surrounding the cowboy era and while much of it might have been based in truth I do know that violence by gun and other means was an accepted part of american society in the early part of the 20th century, my own family was involved in some of the infamous border wars between states and trafficking in illegal alcohol. I had a great uncle who was killed by the local sheriff by being dragged for 20 miles behind a model T ford police car because he refused to pay the sheriff a bribe. Corruption and the police have gone hand in hand since I can remember in my own life as well, the crime of simply being a member of a minority is not an exaggeration and was and continues to be a problem. Modern cam phones have made it seem like it's something new but it's something old that is finally being recognized. The idea that the general population could somehow stop the US government from doing what ever they wanted is silly, but the problem of actually taking everyone's guns is equally problematic. First of all no one knows who really has the guns, that horse left the barn a long time ago, now days the best you could do is stop gun sales and take guns from honest citizens, the chaos that would ensue from trying to just take guns from honest citizens would be tragically deadly to a great many people just because of the general idea that taking guns from my cold dead fingers type of mentality that is rampant even among honest citizens. I live in an are where gun violence is, at least in recent years, rather unusual, it wasn't always like that and i had two personal friends who were killed by cops in simple traffic stops in separate incidents back in the 1970's. The cops in both cases the cops said the shootings were accidental and were never charged and yes both my friends were black. One was on his way to work... A real effort was made to professionalize the local police and sheriff and the problems with both police and citizens slowly went down. It's not perfect but I no longer fear the police or my fellow citizens even though guns are commonly carried openly. Getting a gun permit is quite difficult, especially for a handgun, I have yet to see the effect of relaxing the laws of owning assault style weapons but I am not a big fan of such weapons and my expectations are kinda grim but so far so good in my general area. I do live in a rather liberal university town and police are generally nice people and the general population is believe it or not almost overly polite to each other. Still crime does happen and we do still have racial problems but gang related problems seem to be a bit lower due to a real effort by local police and other officials. Although we did have a nearby sheriff that went on a personal; vendetta against gangs and quite few were killed under suspicious circumstances, he is no longer sheriff and it remains to be seen if that is sorted out or not. Either there is a strange kind of armed truce between gangs and the local citizens and police or the efforts are effective, not sure which but gang signs and such graffiti are not as common in the last several years as they were in the past. Other NC areas are not as lucky and i often wonder if we are just charmed in some way or if the crime is just not as widely reported for some reason. I do know police are quick to respond to crimes and often in force but not in the swat team type overwhelming force but a crime scene usually looks like a police car parking lot very quickly... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I think comparing to the UK isn't really fair. But there are some misconceptions in this thread that should probably need noting. Gun control in the UK came in in 1903 starting with hand gun carry permits and has steadily gotten tighter. The UK is certainly not gun free, licences are quite common, no hand guns and guns must be kept in a secure gun cabinet. There's something like 1.8 million legal guns. Trying to impose anything like that overnight anywhere would be problematic as the behaviours are so different. When looking at the number of people killed by law enforcement in the UK you must bare in mind the troubles, the long term terrorist campaigns in northern Ireland where there was a lot of guns on both sides. I think there are differences in how the police/public interact. My impression is that in the us the police are not very approachable in the UK they are normally pretty friendly. I suspect part of that is not having to assume everyone you interact with may have a gun. It's probably fairer to compare to somewhere like Canada where there is more gun ownership. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) A grand total of about 70 people have been killed by UK police since 1920, one every 16 months, averaged. There's even a wiki page with nearly all the names, dates and places. It really puts us at a severe disadvantage not having guns to protect ourselves with, doesn't it? Does this figure include Northern Ireland, or has the province left the UK while I was away and not looking ? Another figure that challenges your idyllic view is the rate of deaths in police vehicle 'accidents' This is rated at about 5 per year http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1342723/Met-police-traffic-accidents-day-Six-people-killed-years.html Perhaps not the best link, but there are plenty available. Edited June 19, 2015 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Does this figure include Northern Ireland, or has the province left the UK while I was away and not looking ? From what I saw it included it. Which I found quite surprising. I would have expected it to be higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 So was I suprised since Ireland was still part of the UK in 1920, so should include figures like these. While around 300 people had been killed in the conflict up to late 1920, there was a major escalation of violence in November that year. On Bloody Sunday, 21 November 1920, fourteen British intelligence operatives were assassinated in Dublin in the morning, and the RIC opened fire on a crowd at a football match in the afternoon, killing fourteen civilians and wounding 65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 So was I suprised since Ireland was still part of the UK in 1920, so should include figures like these. Quite a number of the deaths in Northern Ireland and in Eire pre-independance were at the hands of the Army rather than the Police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) 14 on one day wasn't a bad tally by the Royal Irish Constabulary, and makes the claim of 70 total since 1920 even more amazing. Edited June 19, 2015 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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