DaniWhite

God and science

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4 minutes ago, Strange said:

I don't believe it is. And you have not provided any convincing reason for me to change my mind.

That is a non-sequitur.

Physics is a description of the universe. Therefore our description of the universe is based on mathematics. A description of the universe is not the universe itself.

"A map is not the territory."

Maybe you should do an introductory course in philosophy so you understand what logic is, how to avoid fallacies, and the difference between a signifier and the signified.

 It doesn't have to "be" the universe itself to be a fundamental aspect of it's operation. You can't refute that the universe obeys the laws of physics and the equations that physics uses to make predictions about the universe. It is reasonable to conclude that mathematics is part of the operation of the universe when it is not only geometrical, but obeys certain equations. That could only mean that the universe is mathematical if it obeys equations, because if it didn't function mathematically, it could not obey equations.

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

You have already proved that you don't so there is no point repeating that. No one believes you.

You haven't demonstrated that you are able to reason about my points.

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Strange    2543
4 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

You can't refute that the universe obeys the laws of physics and the equations that physics uses to make predictions about the universe.

You have that the wrong way round. The universe doesn't obey our laws of physics, our laws attempt to describe (not always correctly) the way the universe works.

5 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

That could only mean that the universe is mathematical if it obeys equations, because if it didn't function mathematically, it could not obey equations.

1. Your conclusion does not allow from the premise.

2. The universe does not obey equations, our equations attempt to describe the way the universe behaves.

3. Our mathematical descriptions are incomplete, approximate and only apply in limited circumstances. (Which is one reason I don't believe that mathematics is part of the operation of the universe).

7 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

You haven't demonstrated that you are able to reason about my points

Says the guy who doesn't know what logic is.

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15 minutes ago, Strange said:

You have that the wrong way round. The universe doesn't obey our laws of physics, our laws attempt to describe (not always correctly) the way the universe works.

1. Your conclusion does not allow from the premise.

2. The universe does not obey equations, our equations attempt to describe the way the universe behaves.

3. Our mathematical descriptions are incomplete, approximate and only apply in limited circumstances. (Which is one reason I don't believe that mathematics is part of the operation of the universe).

Equations can make predictions that can be measured and quantified. They don't have to be complete or exact for the universe to operate based on them (although modern physics is very accurate). How could the universe be described by mathematics if mathematics had nothing to do with the universe? The universe is geometrical, and mathematics is used to describe geometry. That alone shows that mathematics is a part of the operation of the universe, because it has quantities which can be measured and so mathematical models can be proven with those measurements. This would not only prove the mathematical model true, but it proves that the universe functions according to that mathematical principle. If the universe was not operating mathematically, it could not form an output which can be measured (such as gravitational force) which depends, in a mathematical way, on other quantities which can be measured (such as distance).

15 minutes ago, Strange said:

Says the guy who doesn't know what logic is.

Says the guy that doesn't understand how geometry is a part of the universe.

Edited by Endercreeper01

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Silvestru    55
14 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Says the guy that doesn't understand how geometry is a part of the universe.

Can you please describe this in some details? Seeing how you know so much about this subject.

But please don't plot twist this into sacred geometry.

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Strange    2543
15 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Says the guy that doesn't understand how geometry is a part of the universe.

I understand how our invention of geometry can be used to describe the universe, to some extent. But that doesn't necessarily say that geometry is part of the universe.

15 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

They don't have to be complete or exact for the universe to operate based on them

So the universe is based on incomplete mathematics? Or only approximately based on mathematics?

Once upon a time, we described the universe describing Euclidean mathematics. Presumably, at that time, you would have insisted that the universe was Euclidean.

Now we can also describe the universe as a pseudo-Riemannian manifold. So, presumably you think that is what the universe is.

But in future there may be a completely different, perhaps quantised, description of the universe and you will insist, that is the way the universe really is.

But all those models will still work. So you can't say that any of them are how the universe really is. They are just descriptions. They provide no basis for saying what the universe really is. 

We don't know, and can't know, what the universe really is, so it is a bit silly to claim that your belief is correct when it is likely to be overthrown in future. Your religious/Platonic beliefs have no basis.

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dimreepr    647
15 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

 How could the universe be described by mathematics if mathematics had nothing to do with the universe?

 

You are either very confused or just a troll. 

For instance, I can describe the tree I view from my window, but that description has no impact on the tree. 

Edited by dimreepr
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Strange    2543
15 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

How could the universe be described by mathematics if mathematics had nothing to do with the universe?

How could the universe be described by words if words had nothing to do with the universe? (Perhaps that is your justification for the opening of the Gospel of John.)

But words, like mathematics, are just useful human invention. They are not an essential part of the universe "out there".

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studiot    1190
On 15/11/2017 at 5:00 PM, studiot said:
On 14/11/2017 at 11:49 PM, Endercreeper01 said:

If you look through the lens of science, the universe cannot be described as anything more than a mathematical system.

Godel killed Hilbert's dream a nearly century ago.

 

Firstly you still haven't answered this.

Did you or someone else disprove Godel's two theorems whilst I was in the bath?

 

 

 

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DaniWhite    0
On 10.11.2017 at 0:15 PM, Prometheus said:

 

 

Quote

Why do you limit your options to 'god did it' or 'everything popped out of nothing'? What about it didn't start, i.e. it's always existed? What about 'we don't know'? Also, as i understand it physicists have found that things do simply pop into existence.

Everything seems to have a beginning and an end and some kind of development or change between these two stages. I as a human being have a beginning and an end. I know I can't life forerver. Maybe if I would live forever and wouldn't have concepts of beginning and end the idea of the universe as beeing there since eternety would not be so strange to me. But in the world I experience nothing comes out of thin air. There is some causation.

Quote

And yes, i'm frequently astonished by existence. Why does that imply god?

I mean if there would be nothing, I would not be bothered so much by existence. Or if the universe and life wouldn't be so complex and beautiful a need for god wouldn' be there. If there only were a plain rock planet and only a few worms, and I would be one of the worms, maybe I wouldnt think, wow this is so amazing, this must be made by a creator. When I go into a kitchen and I find some wheat flour and some ther powders lying there. Ok . But if there is a cake with 5 storeys, nice color, ornaments, and a fantastic smell and it tastes delicious, I say, wow, who did that? How can a fantastic cake compound itself and it no big deal...

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studiot    1190
38 minutes ago, DaniWhite said:

Everything seems to have a beginning and an end and some kind of development or change between these two stages. I as a human being have a beginning and an end. I know I can't life forerver. Maybe if I would live forever and wouldn't have concepts of beginning and end the idea of the universe as beeing there since eternety would not be so strange to me. But in the world I experience nothing comes out of thin air. There is some causation

So far as we know, many fundamental particles (eg the electron) have no natural end and no one can definitely say they had a beginning either.

This not only applies at the microscale but also at the largest scale of all to the universe itself.

Unlike Voltaire I don't need a crutch.

Quote

If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him

 

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Strange    2543
46 minutes ago, DaniWhite said:

When I go into a kitchen and I find some wheat flour and some ther powders lying there. Ok . But if there is a cake with 5 storeys, nice color, ornaments, and a fantastic smell and it tastes delicious, I say, wow, who did that? How can a fantastic cake compound itself and it no big deal...

Argument from credulity?

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