Police shootings at Dallas BLM protest.

[iNow]

She was pulled over for speeding on a road where many/most people speed. She wasn't being taken by authorities for holding bankers hostage or for dismembering handicapped children and eating them or for shooting people with a sniper rifle in a crowded football stadium.

 

It was not a proportional response.

 

We're a free people. We should have some autonomy, even in the face of commands from police...at least until we're formally placed under arrest, anyway.

 

His command to put her foot in the car and close the door probably should've been followed, but when it wasn't he escalated. That's reverse of what police should be doing, which is to deescalate.

 

No, much more likely is he was trying to teach her a lesson for not obeying him like a beaten neutered puppy or a battered wife married to an abusive volatile husband would.

 

As Ten Oz rightly said, "the follow my instructions perfectly or risk death approach isn't working." It's also anathema to living in a free society as a free citizen. It'd perhaps be more understandable if this were Putins Russia or Assads Syria, but this is the USA, FFS!

Edited July 23, 2016 by iNow

[DrmDoc]

Not to place the blame on the tiny black woman, but why was there a 'tussle' with the police before she was thrown on the hood of the car and arrested.

She's a schoolteacher, for cryin'out loud, why not behave yourself and explain things when everyone has calmed down ?

I would hope that's what she does with the kids she teaches.

And although she could have been pulled over by police several times that day ( for all we know ), she does admit to 15mph over the speed limit, so why argue and fight ?

 

That being said there are people who should not be cops, as the one who shot the therapist proves. He's either incompetent and hits bystanders, or he's a 'dick' who likes to shoot black people. Either way police work is not for him. Take away his gun and charge him !

Fear; it's an instinctive response we should all understand when confronted by a person likely perceived as an abusive oppressor in the way she was likely perceived or profiled as violent.

[Ten oz]

Not to place the blame on the tiny black woman, but why was there a 'tussle' with the police before she was thrown on the hood of the car and arrested.

She's a schoolteacher, for cryin'out loud, why not behave yourself and explain things when everyone has calmed down ?

I would hope that's what she does with the kids she teaches.

And although she could have been pulled over by police several times that day ( for all we know ), she does admit to 15mph over the speed limit, so why argue and fight ?

 

That being said there are people who should not be cops, as the one who shot the therapist proves. He's either incompetent and hits bystanders, or he's a 'dick' who likes to shoot black people. Either way police work is not for him. Take away his gun and charge him !

In many areas of the country speeding tickets are just mailed to people. They take a pic of the plate and just send the fine. No interaction with police at all. So the question in my opinion is why she was resisting but rather why did the office need to touch her in the first place. If I touched someone that didn't want to be touched and they responded by slapping me in the face that would be a perfectly acceptable response by that person. Yet with the police everyone is expected to go limp and allow whatever for even common infractions like speeding. It isn't right.

[MigL]

Look, the point 'm trying to makeis that it takes two to escalate a conflict.

Both the cop AND the teacher could have done things differently, and avoided the resulting situation.

Like I said, Its not about assigning blame, but either of the two, teacher or cop, could easily have changed how the incident played out.

And not by being 'submissive' to authority, but by being civil to another human being.

 

This was NOT the case in the therapist shooting at all.

[StringJunky]

.... but by being civil to another human being.

This is what is absent and cannot be present when people are armed because paranoia/fear precludes it.

[Moontanman]

This is what is absent and cannot be present when people are armed because paranoia/fear precludes it.

 

 

I am not so sure, where I live many people choose to carry guns, it is seriously one of the most polite areas I know of. Of course I can't hardly walk past someone without speaking but I feel no fear out in public. This is a very calm place to live, crime is rare but not unheard of, sadly most of the crime is, as expected, centered in poorer neighborhoods...

[dimreepr]

 

 

I am not so sure, where I live many people choose to carry guns, it is seriously one of the most polite areas I know of. Of course I can't hardly walk past someone without speaking but I feel no fear out in public. This is a very calm place to live, crime is rare but not unheard of, sadly most of the crime is, as expected, centered in poorer neighborhoods...

 

 

If it's so polite and peaceful why do people choose to carry guns? To be safe, it seems, all they need to do is avoid the poor neighbourhoods and not carry guns.

[StringJunky]

 

 

I am not so sure, where I live many people choose to carry guns, it is seriously one of the most polite areas I know of. Of course I can't hardly walk past someone without speaking but I feel no fear out in public. This is a very calm place to live, crime is rare but not unheard of, sadly most of the crime is, as expected, centered in poorer neighborhoods...

So, they carry guns to assuage their paranoia/fear because everyone else is carrying guns who too, in turn, wish to assuage their paranoia and fear because the former are carrying guns; nice little bit of mutally paraniod reciprocation.going on there. America is trapped in a vicious circle of endemic mistrust between its citizens, with the government and vice versa.

Edited July 24, 2016 by StringJunky

[Moontanman]

So, they carry guns to assuage their paranoia/fear because everyone else is carrying guns who too, in turn, wish to assuage their paranoia and fear because the former are carrying guns; nice little bit of mutally paraniod reciprocation.going on there. America is trapped in a vicious circle of endemic mistrust between its citizens, with the government and vice versa.

 

 

Again, there is no atmosphere of paranoia that I see where I live, it might be different in other areas. Then again I am one of those people who talks to strangers anytime I get the chance so maybe i am just not seeing it. But no one carries assault rifles around in public and the idea of opposing the government is a nonstarter, when the gov can put a missile in your living room window from a hundred miles away an assault rifle becomes useless. BTW it's illegal here to carry a long gun around in public, and hand guns must be concealed although that is debatable in the hot summer...

Edited July 24, 2016 by Moontanman

[DrmDoc]

 

 

Again, there is no atmosphere of paranoia that I see where I live, it might be different in other areas. Then again I am one of those people who talks to strangers anytime I get the chance so maybe i am just not seeing it. But no one carries assault rifles around in public and the idea of opposing the government is a nonstarter, when the gov can put a missile in your living room window from a hundred miles away an assault rifle becomes useless. BTW it's illegal here to carry a long gun around in public, and hand guns must be concealed although that is debatable in the hot summer...

 

I think what SJ is saying is that it seems no one buys a gun in America because he feels secure. I agree; if not for hunting or sport, what other reason could there be? As a child of the South, I was raised around guns and understand the allure. As an urban adult living in the North, I understand the insecurity motivating ownership but I chose not--In a way, I would feel less safe in my home with a gun than without.

Edited July 24, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Moontanman]

 

I think what SJ is saying is that it seems no one buys a gun in America because he feels secure. I agree; if not for hunting or sport, what other reason could there be? As a child of the South, I was raised around guns and understand the allure. As an urban living adult in the North, I understand the insecurity motivating ownership but I chose not--In a way, I would feel less safe in my home with gun than without.

 

 

Actually gun collectors are quite common here, I know of a few who don't even buy ammo for the guns... I spend all my spare change on aquariums...

[StringJunky]

I think what SJ is saying is that it seems no one buys a gun in America because he feels secure. I agree; if not for hunting or sport, what other reason could there be? As a child of the South, I was raised around guns and understand the allure. As an urban living adult in the North, I understand the insecurity motivating ownership but I chose not--In a way, I would feel less safe in my home with gun than without.

Yes, that's right.

[DrmDoc]

 

 

Actually gun collectors are quite common here, I know of a few who don't even buy ammo for the guns... I spend all my spare change on aquariums...

 

Is it your honest opinion that fear isn't the basis for most gun sales in America?

Edited July 24, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Moontanman]

 

Is it your honest opinion that fear isn't the basis for most gun sales in America?

 

 

Most probably, although I'm not sure it's not more of a better safe than sorry mentality. Sadly most gun owners are somewhat less than qualified to own guns or even understand the why of owning a gun. A great deal of it I think has to do some sort of macho image being associated with guns.

[zapatos]

 

Is it your honest opinion that fear isn't the basis for most gun sales in America?

 

I may be overly picky with this, but I don't think "fear" is the right word. Perhaps "preparedness".

 

I know a lot of people who own guns, and I wouldn't say that any of them are afraid. Certainly the blowhard gun nuts don't seem afraid.

 

I also imagine that a large number of the gun sales are related to hunting and sport, and so don't even fit in with the "preparedness" crowd.

 

I'm quite sure there are people who buy guns because they are genuinely afraid, but I'd guess that percentage is relatively small.

Edited July 25, 2016 by zapatos

[Raider5678]

Do you think that rape is triggered by the way someone dresses? In other words, do you think that if everyone dressed modestly, rapists would refrain from raping anyone? Would they rape less frequently? Would it make much or any difference to the overall number of rapes if the way people dressed was different?

Regarding the rape questions, you seem to be taking out other factors.

No matter how women dress there will be rape. It how they dress compared to everyone else that I personally believe matters. If 99% of the women in a country covered themselves from head to toe, and the other percent wore bikinis everywhere, who do you think is gunna get raped first?

 

 

Also, the blm protesters are quite obviously just protesting without full information. Take Michael Brown for example. People were rioting and complaining like there was no tommorow. Did you know he assaulted the cop, broke his orbital eyesocket, before he got shot? The medical report for the officer shows proof michael brown assaulted him, but did the media say even one word about that? And to blame the officer is kind of ludicrus. If some dude, obviously stronger then you, assaulted you, beat your face in breaking your orbital eyesocket, and mind you that probably hurts, and you had a gun, would you shoot?

 

There are a number of officers that I know of who were in the legal bounds to shoot, but didn't, and as a result died, were injured, or were seriously put in danger. In some situations there's only 2 choices for them. Shoot or don't shoot. One has the obvious outcome, the other one has two possible outcomes. 3 outcomes, only 1\3 preferable.

 

I went to police camp for a while. I know that's not the full experience, but they still do basically the same training the police go through for a week. One of the big training parts is how to respond to a situation. Usually they're planned situations and are meant to teach you to stay calm, but if your calm during a situation, isn't that better then panicking? Not everybody knows the full extent of every case,but at least look up details then just overall statistics.

[Delta1212]

When American citizens are killed by their own police at a rate literally hundreds of times higher, per capita, than other Western countries, I don't need to look at the details of each individual case to know that we are doing something wrong in this country.

[Moontanman]

 

I may be overly picky with this, but I don't think "fear" is the right word. Perhaps "preparedness".

 

I know a lot of people who own guns, and I wouldn't say that any of them are afraid. Certainly the blowhard gun nuts don't seem afraid.

 

I also imagine that a large number of the gun sales are related to hunting and sport, and so don't even fit in with the "preparedness" crowd.

 

I'm quite sure there are people who buy guns because they are genuinely afraid, but I'd guess that percentage is relatively small.

 

 

Yeah.. what he said...

Regarding the rape questions, you seem to be taking out other factors.

No matter how women dress there will be rape. It how they dress compared to everyone else that I personally believe matters. If 99% of the women in a country covered themselves from head to toe, and the other percent wore bikinis everywhere, who do you think is gunna get raped first?

 

 

Also, the blm protesters are quite obviously just protesting without full information. Take Michael Brown for example. People were rioting and complaining like there was no tommorow. Did you know he assaulted the cop, broke his orbital eyesocket, before he got shot? The medical report for the officer shows proof michael brown assaulted him, but did the media say even one word about that? And to blame the officer is kind of ludicrus. If some dude, obviously stronger then you, assaulted you, beat your face in breaking your orbital eyesocket, and mind you that probably hurts, and you had a gun, would you shoot?

 

There are a number of officers that I know of who were in the legal bounds to shoot, but didn't, and as a result died, were injured, or were seriously put in danger. In some situations there's only 2 choices for them. Shoot or don't shoot. One has the obvious outcome, the other one has two possible outcomes. 3 outcomes, only 1\3 preferable.

 

I went to police camp for a while. I know that's not the full experience, but they still do basically the same training the police go through for a week. One of the big training parts is how to respond to a situation. Usually they're planned situations and are meant to teach you to stay calm, but if your calm during a situation, isn't that better then panicking? Not everybody knows the full extent of every case,but at least look up details then just overall statistics.

 

 

I take offence at the comparison of gun ownership to rape, it wouldn't matter to a rapist how a woman is dressed or anything else. You have a point about the police taking a bum rap in some cases but in others the outrage is more than justified. I wonder if what we are seeing is just the result of more people having cameras or more police violence.

 

It's really difficult for me as a reasonable man to be sure, I've seen some violent police officers and I've seen some take abuse I could never have put up with. I do think this is something we should all be very careful about jumping to conclusions, the populace here is quite well armed but you don't see any or at least not much violence. Even gangs seem subdued here for some reason, it's almost weird to read about what is happening elsewhere and wonder why not here...

 

I can say that here when the police are called they show up fast and in large numbers, maybe that is a clue...

Edited July 25, 2016 by Moontanman

[DrmDoc]

 

I may be overly picky with this, but I don't think "fear" is the right word. Perhaps "preparedness".

 

I know a lot of people who own guns, and I wouldn't say that any of them are afraid. Certainly the blowhard gun nuts don't seem afraid.

 

I also imagine that a large number of the gun sales are related to hunting and sport, and so don't even fit in with the "preparedness" crowd.

 

I'm quite sure there are people who buy guns because they are genuinely afraid, but I'd guess that percentage is relatively small.

I think we can take this further. Let's take guns out of the equation and consider why anyone might seek preparedness for whatever reason. In every case, that reason is to secure oneself against a perceived vulnerability. Seeking security against a vulnerability is in every regards an effort to assuage a fear​--a fear of weakness amid some future moment of urgency or need. Preparedness isn't sought out of an abundance of security and confidence about one's future, it is sought out of an insecurity arising from a fear of vulnerability during some future circumstance or encounter. It's a simple equation, if a = b and b = c, then a = c.

Edited July 25, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Prometheus]

 

I also imagine that a large number of the gun sales are related to hunting and sport, and so don't even fit in with the "preparedness" crowd.

 

Apparently about 60% of American gun owners site personal safety and 36% sports/hunting. Small sample though.

 

Is personal safety equal to fear in this context? I think so, although fear maybe too strong a word for some owners - maybe worry/concern.

[zapatos]

 

Apparently about 60% of American gun owners site personal safety and 36% sports/hunting. Small sample though.

 

Is personal safety equal to fear in this context? I think so, although fear maybe too strong a word for some owners - maybe worry/concern.

Yes, and again I might be making too big a deal of this, but I have a shotgun for personal safety, and am neither fearful, worried, or concerned.

I hike a lot, as do many of my friends. When we do so, we always carry things like a whistle, knife, lighter, and emergency poncho. These items are for personal safety, as getting lost in the woods can be a serious situation. So I suppose 'concern' might cover my reason for bringing these items, although I really don't have any negative feelings when I head into the woods. Getting lost is just a risk I'm aware of and have taken preparations in case that situation occurs. Similarly I have a gun in my house for the same sort of reason. It's just a tool that may come in handy under certain circumstances.

 

I know this is all just anecdotal but it is the same sort of feeling I get from others I know who own guns.

Edited July 25, 2016 by zapatos

[Ten oz]

Regarding the rape questions, you seem to be taking out other factors.

No matter how women dress there will be rape. It how they dress compared to everyone else that I personally believe matters. If 99% of the women in a country covered themselves from head to toe, and the other percent wore bikinis everywhere, who do you think is gunna get raped first?

 

 

Also, the blm protesters are quite obviously just protesting without full information. Take Michael Brown for example. People were rioting and complaining like there was no tommorow. Did you know he assaulted the cop, broke his orbital eyesocket, before he got shot? The medical report for the officer shows proof michael brown assaulted him, but did the media say even one word about that? And to blame the officer is kind of ludicrus. If some dude, obviously stronger then you, assaulted you, beat your face in breaking your orbital eyesocket, and mind you that probably hurts, and you had a gun, would you shoot?

 

There are a number of officers that I know of who were in the legal bounds to shoot, but didn't, and as a result died, were injured, or were seriously put in danger. In some situations there's only 2 choices for them. Shoot or don't shoot. One has the obvious outcome, the other one has two possible outcomes. 3 outcomes, only 1\3 preferable.

 

I went to police camp for a while. I know that's not the full experience, but they still do basically the same training the police go through for a week. One of the big training parts is how to respond to a situation. Usually they're planned situations and are meant to teach you to stay calm, but if your calm during a situation, isn't that better then panicking? Not everybody knows the full extent of every case,but at least look up details then just overall statistics.

Sexual predators are called so because they behave as predators behave. They assualt the weak and volnerable. Pimps don't exploit healthy women with strong supportive families. Child molesters aren't able to pray upon child that communicate openly with their parents. Your notion that the how one dresses is or can be a determining factor with regards to rape is simply wrong. Predators look for weakness not sex appeal. By your bikinis logic simply being more attractive or having naturally larger breast would increase ones chances of being raped. That isn't how it works. Predators seek target that they can rape and get away with it. If a girl covers herself from head to toe but has a bad relationship with her family and is thought by some to be untrustworthy that girl is a much more volnerable target than a girl in a bikini that has a healthy relationship with her family and is well regarded by others.

 

BLM operates on two assumption: Police violence against citizens in this country is far too common and that blacks receive worse treatment. The case you brought up (Michael Brown) isn't the best example but it isn't the only one BLM discusses. The Brown case is a reasonable example of how frivolous the life of suspects are treated by police and society at large. Simply saying Brown did something wrong has been all they evidence needed to justify the actions of the officer. Brown's life is so valueless in the eyes of many that any legal formality to explain why shooting him at distance was justified is accepted and rock solid proof Brown had to die. Meanwhile at the other information we know is disregarded. We know there were nurmerous racist emails circulating within the department. We also know the officer who killed Brown had by lay off from another department that was disbanned after it was determined to be mistreated people based on race. It is also laughable that the officer literally claimed that he looked into Brown's eyes and saw a demon. Obvilously there was a lot of history in Ferguson and many strained feelings. In my opinion it is not accurate to dismiss the whole thing with legal formalities. Someone died and perhaps they didn't need to. It is a very big deal.

[DrmDoc]

Yes, and again I might be making too big a deal of this, but I have a shotgun for personal safety, and am neither fearful, worried, or concerned.

I hike a lot, as do many of my friends. When we do so, we always carry things like a whistle, knife, lighter, and emergency poncho. These items are for personal safety, as getting lost in the woods can be a serious situation. So I suppose 'concern' might cover my reason for bringing these items, although I really don't have any negative feelings when I head into the woods. Getting lost is just a risk I'm aware of and have taken preparations in case that situation occurs. Similarly I have a gun in my house for the same sort of reason. It's just a tool that may come in handy under certain circumstances.

 

I know this is all just anecdotal but it is the same sort of feeling I get from others I know who own guns.

So, the reason you own a shotgun is because you feel confident and secure? Or, is owning a shotgun the source of that confidence and security?

[zapatos]

So, the reason you own a shotgun is because you feel confident and secure? Or, is owning a shotgun the source of that confidence and security?

Neither. I felt confident and secure prior to owning a shotgun, and I feel confident and secure now. I just feel like I'm prepared for a wider range of situations now.

 

Next time I go hiking I may bring a LifeStraw with me. Then I'll feel like I'm prepared for a wider range of situations.

 

Do you carry jumper cables in your car? Would you be fearful without them? Do you feel more prepared with them?

This is similar to how I feel about my shotgun.

[StringJunky]

Zapatos

 

You have a gun because everybody else does. This fact of firearms being highly prevalent increases your risk of harm by a firearm, therefore you need to own one. If you remove/reduce the prevalence you reduce or negate the need to own one.

Edited July 25, 2016 by StringJunky