Physical Revue says "Whiteboards are Racist"

[StringJunky]

On 6/20/2023 at 9:53 PM, Alysdexic said:

You're the first one with brains in the thread.

 

On 6/20/2023 at 10:06 PM, Alysdexic said:

Misunderstanding the whiteboards paper as badly as many'v here does harm to the subject itself (a new freshman in community college could interpret the arguments better than this; you'll learn simple content analysis in introductory courses).

That many would post all of these Clowneries rather than read the paper first shows you are likely a dropout who doesn't know how to tell between reality and fantasy, how to verify a belief, how to premise conditions for observations that should support and defy the belief, how to recognize observations that are irrelevant to the belief. Why do so many hate the scientific method? This kind reflects the American tolerated trash who are why America is with the last in first-world STEM aptitude and industry.

And who did this to them? Their parents? Their halfwitted teachers (who committed the fraud of letting them pass)? I shudder!

Your narcissism is palpable.

[MigL]

58 minutes ago, TheVat said:

This lack of need is rarely expressed when it's some other ethnic group.  Cinco de Mayo street festivals.  St Patrick's parades.  Columbus Day in Boston and New York. Czech festivals in Nebraska.  Russian festivals in Ann Arbor, NYC, etc. Chinatown festivals and lunar New Year all over the Western US.

You do realize those celebrate events ( you can easily look them up if confused by this info ), not 'races' or distinct groups of people.
Even when they do celebrate a heritage, like Canadian Multicultural celebrations, that is vastly different from celebrating an apparent 'race' od skin color.

[TheVat]

25 minutes ago, MigL said:

You do realize those celebrate events ( you can easily look them up if confused by this info ), not 'races' or distinct groups of people.
Even when they do celebrate a heritage, like Canadian Multicultural celebrations, that is vastly different from celebrating an apparent 'race' od skin color.

Of course they celebrate distinct groups.  Columbus Day in Boston celebrates Italian-Americans and their culture (in other places, it may just celebrate Columbus himself, though that's receded in the past few years).  The same with Chinatown festivals in San Francisco or Seattle.  Or the Czech Festival in Wilber, Nebraska (Czech-American girls are insanely pretty, based on reports from sixteen year old me).

 African-Americans are not just a race (a vague and discredited anthropological term), but a group with shared history and culture that came mainly from West Africa. and endured a couple centuries of chattel slavery.  Black Pride celebrates that particular ancestral experience, not melanin levels.  It's a distinct ethnic heritage, and different from that of, say, British Carribean Africans - one of whom is our vice president's father.  

Edited June 22, 2023 by TheVat
father, not grandfather

[MigL]

31 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Black Pride celebrates that particular ancestral experience, not melanin levels. 

Exactly !
A celebration of heritage; no need too celebrate skin color.

I would go one step further, and consider Southern US heritage essentially black heritage, whether it's the cooking ( fried chicken and grits ), the music ( jazz and the blues ), or even the Gospel singing in the church services.

Similarly, you can go to any St Patrick's Day celebration and find twice as many non-Irish ( even Brits ) as Irish revellers.
( bwe all just go for the beer )

Cinco de Mayo is the anniversary of the Mexican victory over the invading French, in1862.
And ironically enough, is a bigger celebration for Latinos in the US than for mexicans in Mexico.

Big difference between common heritage of a group, and perceived 'racial'groups.
The examples given show that differing 'racial' groups can have common heritage.
( I don't like using 'race' either, but it helps keep the discussion understandable )

[Intoscience]

18 hours ago, zapatos said:

If you were unfairly denied a loan which resulted in financial harm caused to you I would be in favor of you receiving financial restitution without delay. I do not think it would be fair to make you wait until the financial institution has reviewed, created, vetted and implemented new policies to ensure their unfair practices have been eliminated.

Even more so, if a government institution or company wronged you, I don't think your restitution should be dependent on first implementing a behavior change of the general population. I feel confident in labeling that as justice delayed.

That's not what we are arguing about, of course people should be compensated for injustice in these instances. We are arguing whether compensation should be made based on the colour of their skin or the way they where treated. Yes, they may have been discriminated against or mistreated due to the colour of their skin but the process to compensate people should not have to follow the same mechanism.

e.g -

"oh you have black skin and as a result, we will compensate you accordingly"

"we are sorry that you where discriminated against, we will compensate you accordingly" 

There is no reason invoke for the purpose of compensation anything other than the fact they have been ill treated. Each individual knows why they were mis-treated, the people making the compensation know why. The very mechanism that was used to discriminate in the first instance, doesn't need to be repeated for the purpose of reparation. 

However, for the purpose of improvement and mitigation the details of why they have been mistreated should be at the fore front and should be recognised and dealt with accordingly.   

I get a little exasperated when considering with racism based on skin color. 

There often seems to be a lack of consistency. 

There is a difference between recognising the differences and celebrating the differences in a way that encourages further racism.

My best friend is black, great, he is proud of his heritage, great. He is my very good friend who I love dearly, he has a darker skin tone than mine, so what.    

He is off to an event organised for black people, he apologises to me, he would love to invite me but can't. "Why? I'm your best friend", "yeah but you are not black".  

This attitude persists in current times, the exact same thing that white people (and I'm sure still do in some areas) did to black people in the past. The way black people were treated in the past, and some in modern times, was/is atrocious behaviour, they deserve compensation, agreed. 

However, so long as this attitude persists whether positive or negative, then racism based on skin color will never be eradicated. 

We need to get past this, and see people for who they are as people not what they look like. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[dimreepr]

3 hours ago, Intoscience said:

The very mechanism that was used to discriminate in the first instance, doesn't need to be repeated for the purpose of reparation.

I don't see how that could be true, other than in the aftermath of a revolution. If that's the only stumbling block for you, think of it in term's of the tyre metaphore, you don't need to kick the tyre to inflate it and the tyre is hardly in a position to kick you.

3 hours ago, Intoscience said:

My best friend is black, great, he is proud of his heritage, great. He is my very good friend who I love dearly, he has a darker skin tone than mine, so what. 

Think about, why you felt the need to mention your black friend?

It's not an accusation, so please don't get defensive; it's about the insidious nature of what our culture teaches us.

3 hours ago, Intoscience said:

He is off to an event organised for black people, he apologises to me, he would love to invite me but can't. "Why? I'm your best friend", "yeah but you are not black".  

This attitude persists in current times, the exact same thing that white people (and I'm sure still do in some areas) did to black people in the past.

It's not the same thing at all, you just didn't get invited to a party; the Windrush generation got invited to a party and when they got there, with a one way ticket, there's a sign on the door "No dog's, No Irish and No Black's", now get to work.

Edited June 23, 2023 by dimreepr

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, MigL said:

Exactly !
A celebration of heritage; no need too celebrate skin color.

I would go one step further, and consider Southern US heritage essentially black heritage, whether it's the cooking ( fried chicken and grits ), the music ( jazz and the blues ), or even the Gospel singing in the church services.

Similarly, you can go to any St Patrick's Day celebration and find twice as many non-Irish ( even Brits ) as Irish revellers.
( bwe all just go for the beer )

Cinco de Mayo is the anniversary of the Mexican victory over the invading French, in1862.
And ironically enough, is a bigger celebration for Latinos in the US than for mexicans in Mexico.

Big difference between common heritage of a group, and perceived 'racial'groups.
The examples given show that differing 'racial' groups can have common heritage.
( I don't like using 'race' either, but it helps keep the discussion understandable )

Most people are happy to have a party, even 😣 a themed one... 😉

How does it relate to the topic?

[Intoscience]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Think about, why you felt the need to mention your black friend?

It's not an accusation, so please don't get defensive; it's about the insidious nature of what our culture teaches us

And this is where the misconception arises. I mentioned about my friend being black because I was sharing an anecdote of an experience that I had as a result. However, skin color either way has no bearing on our friendship only when it is highlighted and forced upon us as in this example. In fact we never even consider the skin color difference because it doesn't matter, I don't see Mike as a black man and likewise, he doesn't see me as a white man, we just see, respect and love each other as dear friends. . 

But people are still insisting that it does when it suits! 

And this is my point, your reaction to my anecdote exemplifiers this very thing. You are assuming wrongly that it matters to me be it consciously or subconsciously when really, honestly really it matters not and is not even a consideration until its forced upon us by some system or other.

I'm saying its time to see past this, to change people's attitudes is to change their perception. Lets not make it a thing then that thing may cease to exist.  

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It's not the same thing at all, you just didn't get invited to a party; the Windrush generation got invited to a party and when they got there, with a one way ticket, there's a sign on the door "No dog's, No Irish and No Black's", now get to work

I wasn't comparing the atrocities towards one past or present over bad feelings towards another. I was sharing an example of where skin color discriminates (in an attempted positive manner), and that this is not necessary. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[Phi for All]

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I get a little exasperated when considering with racism based on skin color. 

There often seems to be a lack of consistency. 

Give me a break! EVERYONE here arguing for reparation has given the reasons for it, and nobody ever implied that it would be based on anything other than discrimination. It just so happens that the folks discriminated against also have black skin, so your argument here is obfuscation by semantics.

[zapatos]

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

That's not what we are arguing about,

Well, I said

"There is always an interesting group of "allies" who advocate for delayed or denied rights/justice, since that will be in the best interest of those who have been harmed."

 To which you replied

"Where do you get this idea from? Who wants to delay anything?"

At which point I gave an example of you using an analogy in your very next statement  that would delay compensation...

"But there's no point inflating the tyre without fixing the puncture properly first." 

So I guess we are arguing about it.

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Yes, they may have been discriminated against or mistreated due to the colour of their skin but the process to compensate people should not have to follow the same mechanism.

What mechanism would you propose then? We're dealing with often invisible unmeasurable daily injustices, both micro and macro-aggressions, due to how they look (skin color) and not who they are nor how they acted personally.

We can perhaps detect and respond to some of those macro aggressions, but when considered in context and over the course of centuries, to me that seems horribly insufficient.

If I stipulate your point, however, and wish to align with you to move this forward despite those concerns, it still remains unclear to me how we'd identify them. 

You suggest a different mechanism is needed here. What practical / useable / available mechanism might that be? I'm willing to be convinced, but honestly have my doubts any such mechanism exists. 

 

3 hours ago, Intoscience said:

skin color either way has no bearing on our friendship only when it is highlighted and forced upon us as in this example. In fact we never even consider the skin color difference because it doesn't matter, I don't see Mike as a black man and likewise, he doesn't see me as a white man, we just see, respect and love each other as dear friends.

But I suspect you might acknowledge, at least if Mike were black here in the United States, that his daily experiences and the experiences of all of his similarly black family elders has been far different than yours as a white man if you also lived in the US.

I'm sympathetic to the fact that you're not in the US, and I fully agree that our love and friendships ought to have nothing to do with skin color. I likewise agree that we must approach each other as individuals and not skin color based stereotypes. We are partners and allies there...

But... the fact that you're NOT in the United States DOES mean that some of your points here miss important underlying truths about how the experience of black americans has been much different than the experience of non-black americans... and that's what most of us in the thread are talking about... the United States which has suffered from this original sin since our founding. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by iNow

[zapatos]

This sort of debate seems to be happening in other places too.

Quote

It turns out that in some parts of Auckland, the country's largest city at 1.4 million people, clinicians have been using an algorithm to adjust where patients sit on elective surgery waitlists. Clinical need remains the top factor, but the algorithm also takes into account how long patients have been on the waitlist, where they live, their financial circumstances, and their ethnicity.

Indigenous Māori and Pacific Island patients are given a higher priority on the list, pushing down white New Zealanders and other ethnicities. The idea is to balance out longstanding inequities in the publicly funded health system.

https://news.yahoo.com/zealand-debates-whether-ethnicity-factor-042350944.html

[CharonY]

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

This sort of debate seems to be happening in other places too.

https://news.yahoo.com/zealand-debates-whether-ethnicity-factor-042350944.html

It is a huge issue in the medical field, and especially in medical research. There was basically a 180 in terms of having minorities in a cohort. Initially often such cohorts were deemed non-representative. Now in most applications you need to at least write a bit about inclusiveness in patient cohorts, to make sure that you do not selectively exclude folks. Medical algorithms are getting a hard look for the same reasons, though folks are often unsure how it should be tweaked. For the most part it is really that research shows that we have inequity here and there is some mechanism leading to it. But often it is difficult to pinpoint a clear mechanism, as quite a few of those can be part of a long pipeline. E.g. folks not living close to good medical facilities and being diagnosed later, or MDs having preconceptions and treating certain folks just a bit worse (or sometimes way worse, something that pops up a fair bit especially when it comes to indigenous folks), leading to delayed or sub-optimal treatment and so on. The issue is then that these data are then used to train algorithms than often perpetuate these inequalities.

7 hours ago, iNow said:

But... the fact that you're NOT in the United States DOES mean that some of your points here miss important underlying truths about how the experience of black americans has been much different than the experience of non-black americans... and that's what most of us in the thread are talking about... the United States which has suffered from this original sin since our founding. 

I will add that while specifics are different, systemic (not systematic) minority exclusion is not uncommon. It tends to be a bit invisible, unless you conduct some level of research into it.

In Germany, for example, there are about 1 million black folks, and in recent census it appears that certain false assumptions e.g. regarding pain tolerance in POC is still very prevalent. In contrast to the US that perception is not targeted exclusively against black folks, but also against minorities (especially Turkish folks, but also folks from the Mediterranean in general). There, whiteness is probably even more narrowly defined. It is so bad that among the medical community a term was coined (Morbus Bosporus sometimes also Morbus mediterraneus or "Anatolian pain" further back in the past it was coined on Italian immigrants, where it was called "Mamma-mia" syndrome). 

This "diagnosis" basically assumes that folks from that area are more likely to exaggerate their pain. This, of course, without actual evidence. This has resulted in differential pain treatment and some issues for immigrants to properly contextualize their pain to German MDs (at which point, the diversity issue raises its head again).

 

 

[dimreepr]

22 hours ago, Intoscience said:

And this is my point, your reaction to my anecdote exemplifiers this very thing. You are assuming wrongly that it matters to me be it consciously or subconsciously when really, honestly really it matters not and is not even a consideration until its forced upon us by some system or other.

I didn't assume anything, I just asked you to think about it and not get defensive.

So, why are you being defensive?

 

[Intoscience]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:19 PM, Phi for All said:

Give me a break! EVERYONE here arguing for reparation has given the reasons for it, and nobody ever implied that it would be based on anything other than discrimination. It just so happens that the folks discriminated against also have black skin, so your argument here is obfuscation by semantics.

Then I have mis interpreted many posts over the past 19 pages worth. 

On 6/23/2023 at 3:56 PM, zapatos said:

Well, I said

"There is always an interesting group of "allies" who advocate for delayed or denied rights/justice, since that will be in the best interest of those who have been harmed."

 To which you replied

"Where do you get this idea from? Who wants to delay anything?"

At which point I gave an example of you using an analogy in your very next statement  that would delay compensation...

"But there's no point inflating the tyre without fixing the puncture properly first." 

So I guess we are arguing about it.

Fair enough, I'm happy for you to compensate as required asap. 

On 6/23/2023 at 4:45 PM, iNow said:

What mechanism would you propose then? We're dealing with often invisible unmeasurable daily injustices, both micro and macro-aggressions, due to how they look (skin color) and not who they are nor how they acted personally.

We can perhaps detect and respond to some of those macro aggressions, but when considered in context and over the course of centuries, to me that seems horribly insufficient.

If I stipulate your point, however, and wish to align with you to move this forward despite those concerns, it still remains unclear to me how we'd identify them. 

You suggest a different mechanism is needed here. What practical / useable / available mechanism might that be? I'm willing to be convinced, but honestly have my doubts any such mechanism exists. 

 

But I suspect you might acknowledge, at least if Mike were black here in the United States, that his daily experiences and the experiences of all of his similarly black family elders has been far different than yours as a white man if you also lived in the US.

I'm sympathetic to the fact that you're not in the US, and I fully agree that our love and friendships ought to have nothing to do with skin color. I likewise agree that we must approach each other as individuals and not skin color based stereotypes. We are partners and allies there...

But... the fact that you're NOT in the United States DOES mean that some of your points here miss important underlying truths about how the experience of black americans has been much different than the experience of non-black americans... and that's what most of us in the thread are talking about... the United States which has suffered from this original sin since our founding. 

I can only imagine the situation in the US and comparing that to my own experiences within my own country they may not align. 

Likewise, someone from the US who has only experienced from that perspective may not be able to align their experiences with other countries across the world. 

Yet here we are often making arguments based on our own experiences and accusing each other of being wrong.  

On 6/24/2023 at 12:05 PM, dimreepr said:

I didn't assume anything, I just asked you to think about it and not get defensive.

So, why are you being defensive?

 

Because some people jump on this and twist it to make racist accusations against others. 

I have been accused of being racist for not recognising and celebrating a person's skin color. On the other hand when recognising and acknowledging a person's skin color I have also been accused of being racist.

So in the case of my anecdote I recognised that I could not attend the event because I'm not black, I was accused of being racist for stating that I was not invited to an event because it was for black people only. On the other hand I'm also a racist for not celebrating my friend's skin color, even though I recognise that Mike is a wonderful guy, a good, kind , honest and generous person.   

Edited June 26, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Then I have mis interpreted many posts over the past 19 pages worth. 

Fair enough, I'm happy for you to compensate as required asap. 

I can only imagine the situation in the US and comparing that to my own experiences within my own country they may not align. 

Likewise, someone from the US who has only experienced from that perspective may not be able to align their experiences with other countries across the world. 

Yet here we are often making arguments based on our own experiences and accusing each other of being wrong.  

Because some people jump on this and twist it to make racist accusations against others. 

I have been accused of being racist for not recognising and celebrating a person's skin color. On the other hand when recognising and acknowledging a person's skin color I have also been accused of being racist.

So in the case of my anecdote I recognised that I could not attend the event because I'm not black, I was accused of being racist for stating that I was not invited to an event because it was for black people only. On the other hand I'm also a racist for not celebrating my friend's skin color, even though I recognise that Mike is a wonderful guy, a good, kind , honest and generous person.   

People often don't get what being a racist actually is, especially when one's culture used to be overtly racist as a normal part of daily life; it gets woven into the narrative of your life, and like tweed it becomes almost impossible to see the colours of each thread amidst the noise of the cloth.

The reason I asked you to think about it, is that 'my best friend is black' is the first line of defence for a/ the guy in the pub innocently telling wildly racist joke's and b/ the guy in the pub who thinks they're innocently laughing at the joke. 

While it's perfectly possible that they don't hate POC and genuinely think they are innocent, what they lack is the empathy, to see that the smile on the black chap is rictus. 

[Intoscience]

39 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

People often don't get what being a racist actually is, especially when one's culture used to be overtly racist as a normal part of daily life; it gets woven into the narrative of your life, and like tweed it becomes almost impossible to see the colours of each thread amidst the noise of the cloth.

The reason I asked you to think about it, is that 'my best friend is black' is the first line of defence for a/ the guy in the pub innocently telling wildly racist joke's and b/ the guy in the pub who thinks they're innocently laughing at the joke. 

While it's perfectly possible that they don't hate POC and genuinely think they are innocent, what they lack is the empathy, to see that the smile on the black chap is rictus. 

Fair enough I see your point.

Again though this is an assumption from people who automatically assume the declaration is a defensive move as guise to cover the person's underlining racist attitude. And I get that people often use this as a defensive tact in many other contexts also. 

I think I'm probably blinded somewhat due to my own circumstances. My best friend is my partner's brother (that's how we met). 

I also accept that I'm not familiar with the situation in the US, so I understand that people from the US may not appreciate my comments. 

All this said, I still stand by my opinion that to eradicate racism (at least to reduce it to the extreme minority) we all need to change our attitudes. For me the first step is to divert attention away from the source of the issue, because the source of the issue really shouldn't matter and to make it not matter is to divert away from it. This doesn't mean we should ignore the problems that need fixing as a result of the source, on the contrary. Reparations, compensations... need to be made.   

[dimreepr]

27 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

For me the first step is to divert attention away from the source of the issue, because the source of the issue really shouldn't matter and to make it not matter is to divert away from it.

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about?

If the source of the issue is, someone's kicked me in the nuts, and you're the coach that hasn't explained the benefit of a box; your best tactic is to divert my attention??? 🖖 

Edited June 26, 2023 by dimreepr

[zapatos]

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Fair enough, I'm happy for you to compensate as required asap. 

I appreciate that you consistently make a real attempt to see things from the perspective of others. It encourages me to also put forth that effort with respect to those I seem to be at odds with.

[Phi for All]

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Then I have mis interpreted many posts over the past 19 pages worth.

I can consolidate my arguments on this subject.

We can discuss politics, because we can disagree on how much to spend on national defense or fixing the highways. Those are political issues. 

We can't discuss racism, child abuse, and discrimination in the same way, because these are moral issues. They're just wrong, and it's very frustrating that some folks here are trying to make it seem less wrong.

[iNow]

8 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I can only imagine the situation in the US and comparing that to my own experiences within my own country they may not align. 

Likewise, someone from the US who has only experienced from that perspective may not be able to align their experiences with other countries across the world. 

Yet here we are often making arguments based on our own experiences and accusing each other of being wrong.  

Thank you for responding. One other part of my post was asking about mechanisms to determine "yes - reparations are appropriate" versus "no - reparations are not appropriate."

I asked this bc you've been encouraging us all NOT to use skin color when making reparations decisions. I'm certainly open to using better metrics, but struggle to envision what those might be.

Are you able to please elaborate on your thinking on this "threshold for reparations appropriateness" so I may better understand what alternative mechanisms may be workable here?

[zapatos]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

Thank you for responding. One other part of my post was asking about mechanisms to determine "yes - reparations are appropriate" versus "no - reparations are not appropriate."

I asked this bc you've been encouraging us all NOT to use skin color when making reparations decisions. I'm certainly open to using better metrics, but struggle to envision what those might be.

Are you able to please elaborate on your thinking on this "threshold for reparations appropriateness" so I may better understand what alternative mechanisms may be workable here?

I know this wasn't asked directly of me, but...

I kind of envision a process where we look at the type of specific government policies/laws that led to harm, then try to assign some sort of reparation for that harm. The policies/laws could be slavery, housing, legal, etc. The reparations could take the form of money, education, preference, funding, etc.

A 'reparations office' could be set up, and the stronger the claim for harm, the greater the reparation. I don't think we can handle 60 million claims, so perhaps if your claim is not strong enough for an individual claim (evidence of a specific act that caused provable harm) claims might be filed in specific 'classes', like 'my family was impacted by school segregation'.

We need a reasonable limit as we don't want to sink the ship while trying to help the passengers.

We could probably do sort of a 'means test', where your reparations decline as your means increase.

I also think we have to accept the fact that any reparations will not make everyone whole again. We can't give what we don't have. I envision this being more than just a gesture, but less than 100% reparations.

I don't want to seem paternalistic, but I think we need to make reparations less in cash, and more in what I would call foundational support. We are trying to fix a long term problem we created and I don't thinks handing a bunch of people a pile of cash will fix a problem in the long term. Foundational support would be more in the form of supporting education, loans, opportunities, etc.

Obviously I've not completely thought this out, nor am I in a position speak for others. These are just my early thoughts on how we might address this issue.

[Phi for All]

33 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I don't want to seem paternalistic, but I think we need to make reparations less in cash, and more in what I would call foundational support. We are trying to fix a long term problem we created and I don't thinks handing a bunch of people a pile of cash will fix a problem in the long term. Foundational support would be more in the form of supporting education, loans, opportunities, etc.

If YOU were the victim of a discriminatory government policy that kept you from prospering on a par with others who weren't discriminated against, would anything other than cash be appropriate for all those concerned? If the .gov instead offered free college courses, interest-free loans, contracts for .gov work and other opportunities, would that be able to cover all the victims? Or would you prefer cash so everyone can apply the reparation in a way that best suits their circumstances?

[CharonY]

 

45 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I don't want to seem paternalistic, but I think we need to make reparations less in cash, and more in what I would call foundational support. We are trying to fix a long term problem we created and I don't thinks handing a bunch of people a pile of cash will fix a problem in the long term. Foundational support would be more in the form of supporting education, loans, opportunities, etc.

It depends, a couple of studies have shown that especially in the lower income brackets, cash injections especially coupled with counseling has some of the biggest immediate impacts.  

Another thing that is relevant for things like foundational support is proper representation. I.e. direct knowledge of affected communities and active engagement. The issue with setting up a good system is that folks deciding on them tend to solve problems that they are familiar with. Typically these approaches resulted in either benefitting the majority (especially if the initiatives are not minority focused) or even result in direct harm (i.e. the paternalistic approach you mentioned). There is a delicate balance, especially for systematically disenfranchised communities, who might often be wary to these kinds of approaches. There are increasingly initiatives that rely on community participation, which might be a way to go forward. 

[zapatos]

18 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

If YOU were the victim of a discriminatory government policy that kept you from prospering on a par with others who weren't discriminated against, would anything other than cash be appropriate for all those concerned? If the .gov instead offered free college courses, interest-free loans, contracts for .gov work and other opportunities, would that be able to cover all the victims? Or would you prefer cash so everyone can apply the reparation in a way that best suits their circumstances?

I think cash vs. programs is in large part dependent on what type of problem you are trying to solve. If you are trying to solve the problem that Bill and Marge lost financial advantages, then perhaps we should give them money. If we are trying to solve the problem that minorities are doing worse than whites in this country, then perhaps we should implement programs. 

So if someone can provide "evidence of a specific act that caused provable harm" then cash may be the way to go. After all, if you can show you are out $100 dollars, then you should get $100 in compensation. But if all you can prove is that 'my grandmother had to go to a crappy school because of segregation', how can you prove specific damages? Perhaps in these cases we should be looking at the bigger picture, where we work to get the group of people damaged by segregation on par educationally with those who were not harmed by segregation.

20 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It depends, a couple of studies have shown that especially in the lower income brackets, cash injections especially coupled with counseling has some of the biggest immediate impacts.  

 

Great point. Maybe there should be a floor where everyone gets at least x dollars to do with as they please. A nice combination of cash and programs to address a combination of problems.

22 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Another thing that is relevant for things like foundational support is proper representation. I.e. direct knowledge of affected communities and active engagement.

Agreed. As I said, I am in no position to speak for others and being an older white guy I obviously don't have as much knowledge as those who have been impacted.