Stonehenge A Neolithic Fire Signal: Architecture Supports Simulation of Moon Phases

[Flippingartist 0]

Now eroding, the shape of Stonehenge was once a large, full circle of large stones and small blue ones, with an inner, horseshoe shaped arrangement. A direct comparison with an image of the full moon, as seen from Stonehenge, also shows a similar, dark, horseshoe shape in the interior.

(See attached image)

As a gathering and ceremonial place, fires were lit at Stonehenge. Where exactly they were lit is unknown, however, when placed in certain patterns on or near the smaller, inner blue stones, they combine to simulate the waxing and waning moon. The larger interior stones and lintels resemble the dark shadows on the moon's surface. The architecture of Stonehenge allows light to escape outwards through the uprights, creating a starburst effect.

(See attached images)

Although Neolithic people could not see Stonehenge from above, they were aware of what a small fire pit looked like from overhead, how rock appears darker within and the light radiates out between stones. 

Consider that they did not know the true nature of planets and stars. They would have attempted to make sense of the night sky by relating the view to a familiar situation, and stars glow in the night sky like distant fires. Add clouds during the day, closely resembling smoke, and it can be reasonably speculated that they may have thought there was a distant civilization of fellow human beings gathering together by fires at night, up above. The moon would represent a massive gathering with a bonfire that notably changed shape.

Repeated attempts to make contact with the people at the largest bonfire - the moon - would result in a culture that tracks lunar cycles, and maps the stars (smaller or more distant fires). The Neolithic people perhaps called attention to their existence by striking the blue stones for the sound and signalled their whereabouts to the people gathered by the moon bonfire by lighting reciprocal fires within Stonehenge, mirroring the phases of the moon.

_____________________________________

Hello, I'm new here and hopeful for your learned feedback. I first believed Stonehenge was to imitate a star, with the uprights systematically blocking the light to create starburst. But I couldn't explain the horseshoe in the middle. Then I saw the crescent moon in my backyard the other night, with Venus above, and it hit.

I came to this by studying pictures of the art, the motifs, at other ancient sites, as I'm an artist. I'm hoping Art and Science are still great friends, because this feels like a Science issue and making paintings about this just doesn't cut it.

This speculation wipes out any religious, mystery cult, paranormal purposes for Stonehenge. They just wanted to connect with what or who was up there.

[Strange 4271]

47 minutes ago, Flippingartist said:

the full moon, as seen from Stonehenge

As seen from Stonehenge?

47 minutes ago, Flippingartist said:

This speculation wipes out any religious, mystery cult, paranormal purposes for Stonehenge. They just wanted to connect with what or who was up there.

The idea that it was built as a basic calendar, to measure events like the solstice, seems more plausible than a superficial resemblance between two circular objects.

[Flippingartist 0]

I included the view as seen from Stonehenge because the orientation of the "horseshoe" changes when seen from other parts of the world, and felt it may be important because of Stonehenge's alignment. 

It is the enormous size of Stonehenge that makes me wonder about the original motivation. Massive enough to be seen from very far away. If it was only a calendar, why isn't it smaller? The Neolithic would not have known these evening "lights" had anything at all to do with seasons until they'd been tracking the changes long enough to make the correlation, and then honed the calendar aspect. This suggests there was an original preoccupation with the moon that lead to their discovery of the relationship between the moon and the seasons.

 

[zapatos 1666]

20 minutes ago, Flippingartist said:

This suggests there was an original preoccupation with the moon

Actually it suggests a preoccupation with the sun, which is why they had the fires to represent the heat of the sun.

[Huckleberry of Yore 0]

7 hours ago, Strange said:

The idea that it was built as a basic calendar,

My understanding is that most prehistoric populations that survived had devised time keeping technology primarily to allow them to plant crops accurately enough to provide sustenance for their populations.  Cultures that failed to do so likely died out.  So Stonehenge probably served that purpose primarily, and secondarily had added cultural significance dealing with dead ancestors, funerals, and probably some really kick ass parties.

[dimreepr 1061]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge

Quote

Stonehenge was a place of burial from its beginning to its zenith in the mid third millennium B.C. The cremation burial dating to Stonehenge's sarsen stones phase is likely just one of many from this later period of the monument's use and demonstrates that it was still very much a domain of the dead.^[10]

Quote

Stonehenge evolved in several construction phases spanning at least 1500 years. There is evidence of large-scale construction on and around the monument that perhaps extends the landscape's time frame to 6500 years.

 

 

[John Cuthber 3814]

10 hours ago, Flippingartist said:

The Neolithic would not have known these evening "lights" had anything at all to do with seasons until they'd been tracking the changes long enough to make the correlation, and then honed the calendar aspect. This suggests there was an original preoccupation with the moon that lead to their discovery of the relationship between the moon and the seasons

So preoccupied with it that they built Stonehenge.

we know this because... they built Stonehenge.

 

10 hours ago, Flippingartist said:

If it was only a calendar, why isn't it smaller?

It may not have been "only" a calendar.

People don't build small cathedrals.

 

[Flippingartist 0]

In light of the comments I think the title of the post should be changed to focus only on similarities to the moon, and not speculate on the purpose. I can't edit it out now, but I'd change it to:

Stonehenge Architecture Supports Simulation of Moon Phases 

There are motifs at Newgrange (Ireland, tomb, built earlier) that also have a horseshoe shape. If it was their symbol for the moon (it has glow lines and is depicted moving around a rectangular shape, see pic) it may have informed the design of Stonehenge.

[zapatos 1666]

9 minutes ago, Flippingartist said:

There are motifs at Newgrange (Ireland, tomb, built earlier) that also have a horseshoe shape. If it was their symbol for the moon (it has glow lines and is depicted moving around a rectangular shape, see pic) it may have informed the design of Stonehenge.

Sorry if I missed it, but do you have any evidence that the horseshoe shape was their symbol for the moon?

[Flippingartist 0]

 

39 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Sorry if I missed it, but do you have any evidence that the horseshoe shape was their symbol for the moon?

It's speculation. When people communicate in symbol they break the subject down into its most basic recognizable elements. I understood the Triskele inside Newgrange to possibly represent the prominent triangular constellation visible in the eastern sky. (To the naked eye that constellation is much stronger)

If that Triskele is the symbol for those stars, that means the radiating lines would represent "glow". On the Kerb stone are similar spirals with the "glow" and an arc, with "glow". The "glowing arc" then moves around a rectangle. The arc may be their way of differentiating the moon from the stars in their symbols.

 

[John Cuthber 3814]

OK, if you think that three dots making a triangle is significant then you haven't thought it through.

Let me know when they make a square.

[Flippingartist 0]

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Let me know when they make a square.

 

[OldChemE 78]

With respect, I think this thread needs to be unified with the thread explaining the difference between correlation and causation.

[Flippingartist 0]

50 minutes ago, OldChemE said:

With respect, I think this thread needs to be unified with the thread explaining the difference between correlation and causation.

I'd like to delete this thread, but realize now that they cannot be deleted. I read the rule posts, the where to post posts, but not the you can't delete posts post. 

[Phi for All 5871]

11 hours ago, Flippingartist said:

I'd like to delete this thread

!

Moderator Note

I can close it, but I'm curious why you want it deleted. Have you changed your mind about your arguments, or are you finding them too difficult to support? 

 

[Flippingartist 0]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

!

Moderator Note

I can close it, but I'm curious why you want it deleted. Have you changed your mind about your arguments, or are you finding them too difficult to support? 

 

I'm embarrassed actually because I don't know the proper format in which to present this, i.e. correlation vs. causation, as mentioned above.  Now I realize it's obviously all about correlation. I guess I would still like a more serious crack at presenting why three dots making a triangle is important. lol.

[zapatos 1666]

So you had an idea and presented it here with diagrams and your thought process, received some feedback, and now are refining your thoughts on your idea.

Please don't be embarrassed. That is the format most threads take.

Around here, that is what we classify as a successful, quality thread! 

[Mordred 1371]

Another avenue I would recommend is gather research already done on Stonehenge. This would add to a good scientific approach particularly if you include support as well as competitive theories. 

For example if there were significant fires in the manner you described that could show up with a soil analysis. Ie carbon layers.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Mordred

[Flippingartist 0]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

So you had an idea and presented it here with diagrams and your thought process, received some feedback, and now are refining your thoughts on your idea.

Please don't be embarrassed. That is the format most threads take.

Thank you, you're right, I'm refining right now.

32 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Another avenue I would recommend is gather research already done on Stonehenge. This would add to a good scientific approach particularly if you include support as well as competitive theories. 

For example if there were significant fires in the manner you described that could show up with a soil analysis. Ie carbon layers.

Thank you - I know there's evidence of wooden posts there, and fire, (thought to be for cremation). I'd like to find out if the blue stones glow blue when heated. Need someone to set a fire around one over there. lol

[Flippingartist 0]

22 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

OK, if you think that three dots making a triangle is significant then you haven't thought it through.

Untrained artists naturally default to geometry when communicating an idea. i.e. when interpreting a landscape with trees and mountain, the horizon will bisect the central horizontal axis of the paper, the mountain will be a perfect triangle located in the center, the trees drawn as taller triangles on either side of the mountain, whose tips stop at all the same height. Classical art training is about looking for natural patterns and overcoming the human tendency to order.

The Triskele in the interior of Newgrange depicts three swirls, emanating from dots. It is inside a tomb, for the dead of an agrarian culture with a preoccupation for the sky. As untrained artists, if this was an abstract picture of their concept of life and death - an invented symbol not from direct observation, the base of the triangle would have both dots/swirls on the same implied horizon, and the upper dot would be located centrally above. (The Kerb stone at the entrance shows they did know how to depict straight lines)

Instead, the left base dot/swirl is higher than the right, and the upper dot/swirl is more to the right of the implied center. The Triskele "floats". This "floating" quality has already been deemed exceptional in studies of earlier Neolithic cave art. This quality suggests the image was created from direct observation, with it's off-kilter base a very important part of the message, especially because it's carved in stone.

The triangular constellation appearing in the eastern sky, at a certain time of year, is easy to see. It also has an elevated left-side. The upper star also appears off center and to the right. If this constellation is visible at a time of year that corresponds with harvest, the Triskele could be a perfect metaphor for death for Neolithic farmers: "they've been harvested" or they are "awaiting their new growth".

Over time the Triskele did become the abstract symbol for life and death, and it is represented by a balanced triangle.

[Flippingartist 0]

On 2/1/2020 at 8:19 PM, Huckleberry of Yore said:

My understanding is that most prehistoric populations that survived had devised time keeping technology primarily to allow them to plant crops accurately enough to provide sustenance for their populations.  Cultures that failed to do so likely died out.  So Stonehenge probably served that purpose primarily, and secondarily had added cultural significance dealing with dead ancestors, funerals, and probably some really kick ass parties.

Baha - I thought they're still having kick ass parties there?!

Everywhere I look are mentions of the calendar aspect, and how that must be the primary purpose. It's just such a massive effort, with specific blue stones hauled over from Wales, to predict seasons, when crops can grow year round in England. Also, the intense labour it took to build would take away from working the fields. I'm having a hard time believing that's the sole primary purpose. 

Like John said:

On 2/2/2020 at 6:36 AM, John Cuthber said:

It may not have been "only" a calendar.

People don't build small cathedrals.

 

A cathedral for communicating with their higher power

[Mordred 1371]

Well there may also be religious reasons for predicting key seasonal events such as summer solstice. During these events religious ceremonies may have been performed within Stonehenge.

There is significant indications of being of religious significance in particular a burial site. 

Others studies show that it was built at different ages and that the surrounding area had hidden details that relate to the structure.

Lmao it could even be as simple as "build a structure large enough that even the Gods will take note"

Edited February 5, 2020 by Mordred

[Flippingartist 0]

14 hours ago, Mordred said:

Well there may also be religious reasons for predicting key seasonal events such as summer solstice. During these events religious ceremonies may have been performed within Stonehenge.

There is significant indications of being of religious significance in particular a burial site. 

Others studies show that it was built at different ages and that the surrounding area had hidden details that relate to the structure.

Lmao it could even be as simple as "build a structure large enough that even the Gods will take note"

So I looked up their religious beliefs again, and there is not very much known . Although it was thought druids were responsible for this place and held rituals there, they arrived later.

There aren't any statues, idols, inscriptions or depictions of any gods at Stonehenge, which makes me think they were interacting directly with their god, or what they perceived to be in the sky.

I just ordered some small, blue stones from the Preseli hills, off of eBay this morning. I hope they're legit - seemed to be many samples from various sellers and they're distinctive looking. I'm going to put them in a fire and see what happens! I'm hoping they glow quite blue when heated, just like the moon. Don't think I'd be getting permission to set Stonehenge on fire...haha

 

 

[dimreepr 1061]

11 minutes ago, Flippingartist said:

I just ordered some small, blue stones from the Preseli hills, off of eBay this morning. I hope they're legit - seemed to be many samples from various sellers and they're distinctive looking. I'm going to put them in a fire and see what happens! I'm hoping they glow quite blue when heated, just like the moon

you get the moon isn't blue?

14 hours ago, Mordred said:

Lmao it could even be as simple as "build a structure large enough that even the Gods will take note"

It didnt work when it was small...

Edited February 5, 2020 by dimreepr

[Flippingartist 0]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

you get the moon isn't blue?

What!!? Haha I meant cooler light, as compared to the warm light of the sun. 

 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It didnt work when it was small...

Actually, now that you mention it, they found a smaller one nearby called Bluehenge:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluestonehenge

Bluestonehenge or Bluehenge (also known as West Amesbury Henge[1]) is a prehistoric henge and stone circle monument that was discovered by the Stonehenge Riverside Project about 1 mile (1.6 km) south-east of Stonehenge in Wiltshire, England.[2] All that currently remains of the site is the ditch of the henge and a series of stone settings, none of which is visible above ground.

 

 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Flippingartist
Forgot link