DrmDoc

What is faith?

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2 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Oneself can trust oneself that it exists. Once that is accepted, it can lead oneself down a path of faith.

Tell that to a schizophrenic. 

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

So you've chosen to focus inward to the exclusion of knowledge of the natural world. I think that's a mistake. It seems like trying to fix the notes of a song without playing/singing if through first. Or like trying to guess all the infinite possibilities of what might be inside a package without first trying to look at it from the outside, and at least measure the box (with all your senses) so you have a better idea of what it could hold. Or like deciding that you don't need to walk carefully across the lake of thin ice if you focus on leaping only to the bits that look safe.

This is one of the big flaws associated with faith. The faithful understand that if they searched for evidence they would find none and would undermine their own beliefs. so instead they attempt to create a standard where searching for evidence in itself either can't be done or is somehow disrespectful. . 

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According to my point of view, faith is a belief in something for nothing when you don't see that thing.

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7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

This is one of the big flaws associated with faith. The faithful understand that if they searched for evidence they would find none and would undermine their own beliefs. so instead they attempt to create a standard where searching for evidence in itself either can't be done or is somehow disrespectful. . 

WRT a deity who actually requests belief without support, like the Abrahamic god, I think it IS disrespectful to look for evidence to support your faith. It was considered a breach of faith to require the son of god to prove himself by showing his disciples the face of his father. Religious/mystical/supernatural beliefs are unique in that they don't require any trustworthy outside verification to match them with what we observe in nature, and that's why I insist on a separate definition for that type of belief, that's why we call it faith. The same is applicable to any unobservable higher power people choose to believe in. If there's no evidence to support its existence, you're using faith to believe in it. 

It's power is to unite people strongly, hopefully for good reasons. Faith in the basic goodness of humanity is not a bad thing.

That's partly why I think using faith is dangerous for a single human developing their belief system. It's like going into the jungle for the first time by parachuting alone into the middle with nothing but your faith, absolutely 100% assured you know the best route out.

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14 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

WRT a deity who actually requests belief without support, like the Abrahamic god, I think it IS disrespectful to look for evidence to support your faith. It was considered a breach of faith to require the son of god to prove himself by showing his disciples the face of his father. Religious/mystical/supernatural beliefs are unique in that they don't require any trustworthy outside verification to match them with what we observe in nature, and that's why I insist on a separate definition for that type of belief, that's why we call it faith. The same is applicable to any unobservable higher power people choose to believe in. If there's no evidence to support its existence, you're using faith to believe in it. 

It's power is to unite people strongly, hopefully for good reasons. Faith in the basic goodness of humanity is not a bad thing.

That's partly why I think using faith is dangerous for a single human developing their belief system. It's like going into the jungle for the first time by parachuting alone into the middle with nothing but your faith, absolutely 100% assured you know the best route out.

I almost got him to sleep, so don't blame me on page 21, when he throws it all up again...

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8 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

WRT a deity who actually requests belief without support, like the Abrahamic god, I think it IS disrespectful to look for evidence to support your faith. It was considered a breach of faith to require the son of god to prove himself by showing his disciples the face of his father. Religious/mystical/supernatural beliefs are unique in that they don't require any trustworthy outside verification to match them with what we observe in nature, and that's why I insist on a separate definition for that type of belief, that's why we call it faith. The same is applicable to any unobservable higher power people choose to believe in. If there's no evidence to support its existence, you're using faith to believe in it. 

It's power is to unite people strongly, hopefully for good reasons. Faith in the basic goodness of humanity is not a bad thing.

That's partly why I think using faith is dangerous for a single human developing their belief system. It's like going into the jungle for the first time by parachuting alone into the middle with nothing but your faith, absolutely 100% assured you know the best route out.

While this makes sense to the faithful it is actual just a mechanism to get around not have any evidence (any tangle reason for believing in what they believe in).  

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22 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

(any tangle reason for believing in what they believe in).  

You toggled your checker from "spelling" to "irony" again, didn't you? :lol:

And that's why it's hard to argue with faith. When something you've dreamt up makes such perfect sense to you, the emotional emphasis makes the idea SEEM tangible. You become convinced you're right, and you're sure there's a good way to explain it but you can never come up with the reasoning, it always seems just out of reach.

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6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You toggled your checker from "spelling" to "irony" again, didn't you? :lol:

Ironic on a couple levels. Without an external observer I wouldn't have noticed the error. 

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8 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

You could say that there is no ground for my personal faith. 

I believe many have been trying to tell you that over the last 16 pages or so.I

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would disagree because I see my faith as grounded in a particular set of beliefs, as part of a world view.

Faith has a basis in a personal worldview.

 

Your faith is grounded in the fact that man since he first climbed down out of the trees, has been asking many questions and wondered at the awesome nature of the universe that surrounds him. No satisfactory answer was forthcoming, so he turned to magic in those early days, and saw this mythical higher power in many things that he could not explain. This has carried on down through the ages. Then science came along, and all was revealed...at least up to t+10-43 seconds.

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Nice thinking, although it hardly defeats my statement....

Your statement/argument is defeated because it has no basis in what we observe nor any empirical evidence to support it.

Edited by beecee

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