StringJunky Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) Perhaps so, but it does not change the fact that there is nothing which suggests that a woman has the right to x amount of early term terminations. Your emotional stance on it is not relevant in terms of the legality. You are entitled to your opinion, but I am satisfied with the law in my state. Whether you can visualise the scenario whereby a woman may need multiple terminations is irrelevant to my point. In the UK the NHS will support three terminations.... You were expressing your opinion and I contradicted it with mine. My interpretation of your comment I picked up on was that you have no deference for life even if at that stage it is just potential and that it is expendable on a whim. The more it's done the more likely it is to cause mental harm to those concerned. This is in Ethics so legality is not the whole story. Edited November 12, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 What I find more troubling is the statement " a fetus is not a human being ". Does that mean that until the umbilical cord is cut, we are just dealing with a cancer-like 'growth' which can be simply cut out and discarded ? A lot of people and lawmakers have agonized over deciding when the fetus is accorded human rights. And I realize there will be extreme opinions ( some at conception and others at delivery ), but surely, at some point, the fetus has to be granted human rights. What would be your reaction if ( in a country like China ), as soon as the gender is known, couples abort their female fetuses ( or is it fetii ? ) simply because they prefer male offspring ? Would you say it is their right to do so, as the fetus doesn't have rights or legal standing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirona Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 In the UK the NHS will support three terminations.... You were expressing your opinion and I contradicted it with mine. My interpretation of your comment I picked up on was that you have no deference for life even if at that stage it is just potential and that it is expendable on a whim. The more it's done the more likely it is to cause mental harm to those concerned. This is in Ethics so legality is not the whole story. Then you grossly misinterpreted. What about the psychological impact of having a child you cannot provide or care for? One that you did not? I am not denying that a woman will not feel guilt and a range of other emotions, but that does not necessarily mean she made the wrong choice. It is not a choice you have to make. Whether you believe a woman is unethical for carrying it out or not is irrelevant because the status quo here is that it is not. My participation in this thread is done, because I have stated what I truly believe and I am quite frankly deeply hurt with the misogyny I see on this forum. I will admit that it's not as blatant as I have seen on other conversation boards and the majority of men truly do treat women with equal moral standing, but the reality is that the inequality exists, subconscious or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) My participation in this thread is done, because I have stated what I truly believe and I am quite frankly deeply hurt with the misogyny I see on this forum. I will admit that it's not as blatant as I have seen on other conversation boards and the majority of men truly do treat women with equal moral standing, but the reality is that the inequality exists, subconscious or not. I have expressed no misogyny. It dismays me the lack of acknowledgement or awareness that men have a stake in it as well. Pregnancy is nine months out of twenty years of invested time and effort by both parties. You should say what you believe but you should leave your emotions at home. We explore and challenge each others thoughts about different subjects and often we come out of these skirmishes a bit wiser and more complete as people. It is a bit of a shock to the system at first but you get used to it. First thing to learn is that it is ok to be wrong and corrected. Also, it is what you say that is being challenged not you as a person. We aim to attack ideas not people. It's OK to walk away from a conversation too when you feel you've said your piece.. It is not a competition with winners and losers. Edited November 12, 2016 by StringJunky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) I heard killing someone for the first time is the hardest.....then you become disensitize to it.. But then it's not like a fetus is a live being, it is just cancer growth to some . Edited November 12, 2016 by ModernArtist25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) I heard killing someone for the first time is the hardest.....then you become disensitize to it.. But then it's not like a fetus is a live being, it is just cancer growth to some . We are not going to get a mature conversation with you are we? Edited November 12, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 My apologies. I recognize this is a very sensitive issue. I should not have used the term 'cancer-like growth'. I hope that isn't what caused Sirona to leave the conversation. Any discussion of women's rights would be pointless without a woman's point of view and input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endy0816 Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) What are people's thoughts if it is medical related? Interestingly, with artificial insemination the situation can easily be reversed and the male victim end up financially responsible for millions of children. Edited November 12, 2016 by Endy0816 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 I meant I was curious about the amount of women who want abortion due to medical issue or inconvenience because a baby is just not the right time for them at the moment And I provided you with resources to help satisfy that curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 And I provided you with resources to help satisfy that curiosity. Yes, thanks for the link! It was helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Nobody likes abortion, and most of the arguments folks make on the topic are frankly irrelevant to the core issue at stake. We each have for ourselves a different threshold of "yes, this is okay," and, "no, this is not okay" as the cells continue to divide and multiply. We are afforded the freedom to choose for ourselves where that threshold is placed. Our autonomy and individual agency is respected, our opinion protected, our individual choice offered near universal deference. There is also strong consensus that abortion should be minimized and avoided wherever possible, regardless of where we place our personal yes/no threshold. That's not in question. That's not what this is about. Instead, this entire "debate" comes down to one uniquely simple question. On the issue of abortion: Would we rather the officials we elected to government make this choice for all of us or for the mother to make this choice in partnership with her doctor based on individual circumstances? Self-interested generally corrupt government cronies decide, or mothers and their doctors do. Let's not distract ourselves with peripheral irrelevancies. These are the two options from which we must choose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) The government can make laws on related to abortion, homicide, drugs, etc. And some people will still manage to do whatever they want...At the end of the day, we should all look within ourselves, so we can learn to lead and govern ourselves. What is right and wrong is a state of mind Edited November 12, 2016 by ModernArtist25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) Nobody likes abortion, and most of the arguments folks make on the topic are frankly irrelevant to the core issue at stake. We each have for ourselves a different threshold of "yes, this is okay," and, "no, this is not okay" as the cells continue to divide and multiply. We are afforded the freedom to choose for ourselves where that threshold is placed. Our autonomy and individual agency is respected, our opinion protected, our individual choice offered near universal deference. There is also strong consensus that abortion should be minimized and avoided wherever possible, regardless of where we place our personal yes/no threshold. That's not in question. That's not what this is about. Instead, this entire "debate" comes down to one uniquely simple question. On the issue of abortion: Would we rather the officials we elected to government make this choice for all of us or for the mother to make this choice in partnership with her doctor based on individual circumstances? Self-interested generally corrupt government cronies decide, or mothers and their doctors do. Let's not distract ourselves with peripheral irrelevancies. These are the two options from which we must choose. The question begs to be discussed from as many perspectives as are available. Better to look around the whole subject rather than from a single perspective, even if, ultimately, the final decision is made from one single perspective. Edited November 12, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 I find a judgement call from moral superiority deeply troubling. It implies that we can take away the right of an individual on the most private matter based on how we judge a person. "Obviously someone who goes through repeat abortion is making bad judgement calls. so we should take her rights away and limit those of others". Normally this would only be justifiable if someone may get harmed. And again, at the early stages of pregnancy I do not see it happening. Just remember that many mechanisms contraception do not prevent fertilization, but simply create an unfavorable environment for the pregnancy to proceed. So what does it leave us? It is not that much about officials making decisions on women, after all, they are the extension of the will of society. So we impose limits because once there is potential of life and then we argue that because someone contributed sperm will should also have a say in it. If we enshrine this legally, what does it tell about us as a society? That we value a person and give the rights only to waive them once pregnancy sets in? That a woman has the moral obligation to stay chaste in order not to fall into the trap? That a man that arguably would also have made a bad decision suddenly gets to decide how it is going to pan out for the woman? I appreciate that posters here do not think that the stance is inherent misogynist. However, it is hard to overlook the significant power imbalance in the situation. The discussion is entirely focused on our ability to take women's right away. And make no mistake, it really is about judging the morality of women as so far no propositions have been brought forward to fully support the child. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 My participation in this thread is done, because I have stated what I truly believe and I am quite frankly deeply hurt with the misogyny I see on this forum. I will admit that it's not as blatant as I have seen on other conversation boards and the majority of men truly do treat women with equal moral standing, but the reality is that the inequality exists, subconscious or not. Me, my children and my family are a victim of the inequality you talk about. The things I had to and still have to go through due to the inequality of men & women would give you nightmares. My whole life has been determined for the past 7 years and will be determined till the day that I die by the fact that there is an inequality between sexes - I've lost everything due to that inequality. I had to start my life over due to the simple fact of men & women not being equal, will I manage - we'll see (I'm a heterosexual male in my 40's) I do not see myself as a victim now, the world we live in is not just and surely there is no equality between sexes - neither in regular life nor in courts nor in any other area of our existence. This is the way it has been for thousands of years and neither your "mysoginy" shouting nor my story will change that. Get over it. PS. What you wrote about you not seeing a difference between one or five abortions is disturbing but hopefuly it's just your young age and/or lack of life experience speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdEarl Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Nobody likes abortion, and most of the arguments folks make on the topic are frankly irrelevant to the core issue at stake. We each have for ourselves a different threshold of "yes, this is okay," and, "no, this is not okay" as the cells continue to divide and multiply. We are afforded the freedom to choose for ourselves where that threshold is placed. Our autonomy and individual agency is respected, our opinion protected, our individual choice offered near universal deference. There is also strong consensus that abortion should be minimized and avoided wherever possible, regardless of where we place our personal yes/no threshold. That's not in question. That's not what this is about. Instead, this entire "debate" comes down to one uniquely simple question. On the issue of abortion: Would we rather the officials we elected to government make this choice for all of us or for the mother to make this choice in partnership with her doctor based on individual circumstances? Self-interested generally corrupt government cronies decide, or mothers and their doctors do. Let's not distract ourselves with peripheral irrelevancies. These are the two options from which we must choose. I am in favor of giving individuals as much freedom as possible; however, there must be limits, for example prohibition against murder. A controversy exists over the amount of government control v individual freedom, on an issue by issue basis. Many of the issues are emotional and unresolvable, for example abortion; thus, making a perpetual controversy. Government rules tend to handle all scenarios uniformly, and individual decisions tend to handle some scenarios differently. Both can lead to injustice, but government rules are slow to change when laws are poorly written. Thus, I tend to prefer a minimum number of laws and government regulations, but those needed are numerous in any case. It seems an abortion law that satisfies most people cannot be written; neither government nor individual control is satisfactory to most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 PS. What you wrote about you not seeing a difference between one or five abortions is disturbing but hopefuly it's just your young age and/or lack of life experience speaking. I saw that comment as a stance on the rights involved. It really shouldn't matter if a woman wants an abortion, or if circumstances force her to make that choice five times. It's her choice, because it's her body. That's the only way anyone can call themselves a free person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) I saw that comment as a stance on the rights involved. It really shouldn't matter if a woman wants an abortion, or if circumstances force her to make that choice five times. It's her choice, because it's her body. That's the only way anyone can call themselves a free person. I don't think that we are or can be completely free but anyway... I saw that comment for what it is and I agree with String that it is controversial. Come to think about it, it's not such a big deal though...hypothetical and/or surely highly isolated cases of pathological women who run around all their lives just to have abortions for the fun of it is very unlikely. What I find interesting is that people who are the loudest preachers of equality (especialy feminists) do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "equality" Edited November 12, 2016 by koti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Well, here we are... A bunch of guys sitting around discussing what rights women should, or shouldn't, have. Doesn't seem right ( or ethical ) to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) Well, here we are... A bunch of guys sitting around discussing what rights women should, or shouldn't, have. Doesn't seem right ( or ethical ) to me. So, women have the complete monopoly on discussion, development and future of young humans? I welcome the day that technology can emerge that will take that burden away from them and children may be conceived and gestated ex utero. Then we won't be having this conversation. Edited November 12, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 Well, here we are... A bunch of guys sitting around discussing what rights women should, or shouldn't, have. Doesn't seem right ( or ethical ) to me. FYI, I'm a woman. I am pretty sure I am not the only 1 though on this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 FYI, I'm a woman. I am pretty sure I am not the only 1 though on this thread With that being revealed, your issue is really with the ethics of abortion itself...is that so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 With that being revealed, your issue is really with the ethics of abortion itself...is that so? Yea, to me it just doesn't seem right. But it is my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Yea, to me it just doesn't seem right. But it is my opinion. OK. Women's rights on this matter are a negative for you then; you wish they didn't have them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daecon Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Yea, to me it just doesn't seem right. But it is my opinion.Well then, don't have an abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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