Ultimate Infinity Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 The number one way that the existence of God is undermined is because of the problem of evil. Which makes sense- how could an all powerful and all good God allow sin and suffering? I understand how this causes doubt. But the answer to why God allows evil is simple - free will. God gives us free will to improve the quality of his people. Think about it if we all could do no wrong how would we improve. We undergo trials and temptation it helps us be stronger and overall better. This is a support of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 The number one way that the existence of God is undermined is because of the problem of evil. Which makes sense- how could an all powerful and all good God allow sin and suffering? I understand how this causes doubt. But the answer to why God allows evil is simple - free will. God gives us free will to improve the quality of his people. Think about it if we all could do no wrong how would we improve. We undergo trials and temptation it helps us be stronger and overall better. This is a support of God Or it is support for a universe with no god... Does the devil have free will? So God allows innocents to suffer so we can all be better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 But the answer to why God allows evil is simple - free will. It only seems like a simple answer until you give it any thought. Upon any reflection, it's not even a plausible answer. (1) God can do all that is logically possible. [premise, def: "Omnipotent"] (2) Either Morally Perfect Natures are are consistent with Free Will or they are not. [premise, tautology] (3) If Morally Perfect Natures are consistent with Free Will, then God could have created beings with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will. [Conditional Proof; (1), (2): Modus Ponens] (4) If Free Will and Morally perfect Natures are inconsistent, then: (a) God does not have Free Will. [(2), (3): DeMorgan's Law] and/or (b) God is not morally perfect. [(2), (3): DeMorgan's Law] (5)If God exists, at least one of the following is true: God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will, God does not have Free Will, or God is not morally perfect. [(2), (3), (4): Constructive Dilemma] Now, the Free Will Defense assumes that a world in which there is moral evil but humans have Free Will is better than one in which there is no moral evil but humans do not have free will. Thus, Free Will is a "Great-making Property", which by definition means God has Free Will. So, using (5) as a premise: (1) God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will, God does not have Free Will, or God is not morally perfect. [conclusion of the first argument] (2) God has Free Will [premise, Free Will is a Great-Making property] (3) God is morally perfect [premise, definition of God] (4) God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will or God is not morally perfect. [(1), (2): Disjunctive Syllogism] (5)God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will. [(3), (4): Disjunctive Syllogism] 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 The number one way that the existence of God is undermined is because of the problem of evil. Which makes sense- how could an all powerful and all good God allow sin and suffering? I understand how this causes doubt. But the answer to why God allows evil is simple - free will. God gives us free will to improve the quality of his people. Think about it if we all could do no wrong how would we improve. We undergo trials and temptation it helps us be stronger and overall better. This is a support of God I would be interesting to know which god you are talking about as well.. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveworlds Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Humans define evil. What do humans do that is evil exactly?? Animals kill each other all the time we call that nature ... but when humans kill each other it is evil. So really evil is the imposition of ideology on yourself and others. Somebody came up with this ideal that people shouldn't kill and imposed it on everybody else because they could. It wasn't always that way at one point in time people died in the Roman Colosseum for sport and nobody cared. Edited June 29, 2016 by fiveworlds 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Think about it if we all could do no wrong how would we improve. OK, I thought about it. If we did no wrong we wouldn't need to improve. So why make a shoddy product (like us) in the first place. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Animals kill each other all the time we call that nature ... I watched a small pod of killer whales play with an exhausted seal. They could have killed it at any time, but spent most of the hunt tossing it with their tails playing keep-away, until it wasn't fun anymore. I've also seen a pod spend hours separating a baby whale from it's mother before tiring it out and then drowning it, and then they only ate its tongue (there were 14 killer whales in the pod). If any other creature besides man could be called evil.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 The number one way that the existence of God is undermined is because of the problem of evil. Which makes sense- how could an all powerful and all good God allow sin and suffering? I understand how this causes doubt. But the answer to why God allows evil is simple - free will. God gives us free will to improve the quality of his people. Think about it if we all could do no wrong how would we improve. We undergo trials and temptation it helps us be stronger and overall better. This is a support of God Why does He need us to improve? Why didn't He just create us perfect in the first place? Maybe He made a mistake? Or He could have given us free will but no desire to be bad. Or not bothered to create us at all. I assume He did that because He needs to be worshipped. He must feel very insecure... Or be very arrogant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Why does He need us to improve? Why didn't He just create us perfect in the first place? Maybe He made a mistake? Or He could have given us free will but no desire to be bad. Or not bothered to create us at all. I assume He did that because He needs to be worshipped. He must feel very insecure... Or be very arrogant. Or nonexistent... I watched a small pod of killer whales play with an exhausted seal. They could have killed it at any time, but spent most of the hunt tossing it with their tails playing keep-away, until it wasn't fun anymore. I've also seen a pod spend hours separating a baby whale from it's mother before tiring it out and then drowning it, and then they only ate its tongue (there were 14 killer whales in the pod). If any other creature besides man could be called evil.... Ummm that could be proof of the OP? Killer whales are certainly sentient creatures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Why does He need us to improve? Why didn't He just create us perfect in the first place? Maybe He made a mistake? Or He could have given us free will but no desire to be bad. Or not bothered to create us at all. I assume He did that because He needs to be worshipped. He must feel very insecure... Or be very arrogant. As I said He is no less if He isn't worshipped He created us because He loves us, we all would agree that existence is pretty amazing and all he wants in return for you know everything is for us to love him back which yes includes praising Him for being perfect I would be interesting to know which god you are talking about as well.. . I am Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 As I said He is no less if He isn't worshipped He created us because He loves us How could he love us if we didn't exist? He must have made us and then decided he loved us. So it sounds like he messed up by failing to make us perfect and then came up with a feeble excuse about "free will". I think He should have just admitted he made a mistake. all he wants in return for you know everything is for us to love him back which yes includes praising Him for being perfect I don't think I could a love a god who made such a bad world. He takes the credit for all the good bits and then blames us for the bad things he made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 ... all he wants in return for you know everything is for us to love him back which yes includes praising Him for being perfect It's a nefarious kind of love that demands worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Why does He need us to improve? Why didn't He just create us perfect in the first place? Maybe He made a mistake? Or He could have given us free will but no desire to be bad. Or not bothered to create us at all. I assume He did that because He needs to be worshipped. He must feel very insecure... Or be very arrogant. Abraham's god always sounded this way to me. The perfect god, imo, would have set things up exactly like this, counting on human intelligence to see through the BS to figure out that learning to deal effectively with our own evil is the only thing that matters. Then the god shows up, restores all the lost limbs from every amputee, rings the moon like a gong and says, "You got it right! Now forget about me and go explore!" As I said He is no less if He isn't worshipped He created us because He loves us, we all would agree that existence is pretty amazing and all he wants in return for you know everything is for us to love him back which yes includes praising Him for being perfect Well yes, but he also did that passive/aggressive BS where he made us imperfect, and then berates us for it, to the point of making us spend eternity in Hell if we don't go out of our way to please him. Seriously, that's a very messed up move. "I'm all powerful, could have made you any way I wanted, decided to make you sinful, which is the one thing I can't tolerate. Oh well." I am Christian Which one of the 9000+ sects do you belong to? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Well then, do you believe the bible is absolutely the word of god? 100% Abraham's god always sounded this way to me. The perfect god, imo, would have set things up exactly like this, counting on human intelligence to see through the BS to figure out that learning to deal effectively with our own evil is the only thing that matters. Then the god shows up, restores all the lost limbs from every amputee, rings the moon like a gong and says, "You got it right! Now forget about me and go explore!" Well yes, but he also did that passive/aggressive BS where he made us imperfect, and then berates us for it, to the point of making us spend eternity in Hell if we don't go out of our way to please him. Seriously, that's a very messed up move. "I'm all powerful, could have made you any way I wanted, decided to make you sinful, which is the one thing I can't tolerate. Oh well." Which one of the 9000+ sects do you belong to? I am Catholic and God did t create us sinful the devil tempted and introduced Adam and Eve into sin and God is all powerful and all good therefore he can do anything and and everything he does is the best most right thing therefore for some mysterious reason having us imperfect was the best way to make us better I mean don't you think God would be happier knowing that those with him in heaven chose him and chose to be good instead of just being created that way How could he love us if we didn't exist? He must have made us and then decided he loved us. So it sounds like he messed up by failing to make us perfect and then came up with a feeble excuse about "free will". I think He should have just admitted he made a mistake. God loved before us before he created us he knows everything g therefore past present and future so he did know before he created us that he loves us I don't think I could a love a god who made such a bad world. He takes the credit for all the good bits and then blames us for the bad things he made. Sorry my last quote reply went into your quite strange what I said is the second last paragraph How could he love us if we didn't exist? He must have made us and then decided he loved us. So it sounds like he messed up by failing to make us perfect and then came up with a feeble excuse about "free will". I think He should have just admitted he made a mistake. I don't think I could a love a god who made such a bad world. He takes the credit for all the good bits and then blames us for the bad things he made. That's because all the good things are because of Him ( the universe love etc) but everything bad is contained within the realm of consciencness which is everything thought word and action and result of those from sentient beings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 I am Catholic and God did t create us sinful the devil tempted and introduced Adam and Eve into sin and God is all powerful and all good therefore he can do anything Except get rid of the devil. and and everything he does is the best most right thing therefore for some mysterious reason having us imperfect was the best way to make us better I mean don't you think God would be happier knowing that those with him in heaven chose him and chose to be good instead of just being created that way So on the one hand, your justification is that He is "mysterious". But then you ask us how we think he would feel? I think he should feel very slightly embarrassed. That's because all the good things are because of Him Including the devil? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Except get rid of the devil. So on the one hand, your justification is that He is "mysterious". But then you ask us how we think he would feel? I think he should feel very slightly embarrassed. Including the devil? First of all he can get rid of the devil and why would he feel embarrassed and the devil is t good Edited June 29, 2016 by Ultimate Infinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus#Epicurean_paradox God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus#Epicurean_paradox God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them? That is a great question I believe the best answer is because evil is a kind of sifter that separates the good from the bad the people that give in to and choose evil are not worthy for heaven but those who face the decision and choose love will have their reward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 That is a great question I believe the best answer is because evil is a kind of sifter that separates the good from the bad the people that give in to and choose evil are not worthy for heaven but those who face the decision and choose love will have their reward But what about the innocents? Millions of children die everyday from horrific things that a god could prevent. God cannot even prevent his own earthly representatives from abusing children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Why do bad things happen to good people it is the age old question I believer is my faith in God perfection that makes sense to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Why do bad things happen to good people it is the age old question I believer is my faith in God perfection that makes sense to me Why do you believe in your god and not some other god or gods? How could making humans suffer be perfection to anyone but a sadist? Edited June 30, 2016 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 First of all he can get rid of the devil and why would he feel embarrassed and the devil is t good The devil is good? That is a new one. Why do bad things happen to good people it is the age old question I believer is my faith in God perfection that makes sense to me How can it be perfection to make a world where innocent people are killed by volcanoes, tornadoes and sharks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 The devil is good? That is a new one. How can it be perfection to make a world where innocent people are killed by volcanoes, tornadoes and sharks? That is a new one for sure! But god does do evil... Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 That is a new one for sure! But god does do evil... Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Well, obviously. After all He created Satan and humans with the will to do bad things, and venomous snakes, and deadly viruses, and earthquakes ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 That is a new one for sure! But god does do evil... Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV) 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. My apologizes I meant not good I just forgot the no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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