32 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Average of what? Owner? If I own 10 houses, how does that affect these statistics?

The wording implies the area per house, there is no indication of ownership. Moreover, considering that the colour suggests that the square footage of Germany appears to be above 1000, I think that it will also include multi-family homes, which are very common there. However, I am not sure whether high-rise buildings would be included.

2 hours ago, iNow said:

False dichotomy. Those aren’t mutually exclusive 😝

.... meth lab :D?

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The wording implies the area per house, there is no indication of ownership. Moreover, considering that the colour suggests that the square footage of Germany appears to be above 1000, I think that it will also include multi-family homes, which are very common there. However, I am not sure whether high-rise buildings would be included.

..this does not tell us anything about how many square meters per capita there are in these apartments/houses..

However, I am not sure whether high-rise buildings would be included.

This would exclude most cities. Where I live, no one has a single-story house in the city. That would be crazy. Even if someone builds a single-family house in the countryside, it has at least one floor (which in some countries means it has two floors). The ground floor is the ground floor. The first floor is the next level. And, of course, there's the basement. Nobody builds without a basement here.

If it occupies 10x10 m² of land, and because it has three levels including a basement, this gives a usable area of approximately 300 m².

And what about the basement? Is it also included in this area?

If someone has a sloping roof, this space, the attic, is still used and is then called an entresol.

Edited September 26Sep 26 by Sensei

On 9/25/2025 at 7:25 AM, CharonY said:

Freeeeeeedom: while freedom is hard to quantify, most freedom indices put the USA below a wide range of European Countries (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country)https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country) Unsurprisingly, as it turns out, extreme inequality does restrict a wide range of freedom. Who would have thought? And obviously, this year is going to be extremely bad for the US and I expect that for this year things like media freedom are going to drop further.

These indices are made by people who serve global elites.

On 9/25/2025 at 7:25 AM, CharonY said:

Alcohol: the idea that alcohol consumption is linked to freedom is quite laughable. Rather than relying on "someone totally real told me so" you could simply check out statistics on alcohol consumption. Based on that, Muslim countries like Afghanistan must be incredibly free. Or just, you know, think a bit. The US alcohol consumption is just where Burkina Faso is, but higher than, say Malta, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and also China. Does it line up with any pattern that you want to see?

Are you sure that in US people drink more than in Sweden?

Speaking of the Muslim countries, they just have a prohibition on alcohol because of their religion. They are not free.

Well, @linkey, I would propose you come here and visit me here in Switzerland, and look how it looks like the UdSSR...

I also thought, you can look at a few European newspapers. I can only advise newspapers I really know. Translation shouldn't be a problem today.

• volkskrant.nl

• nrc.nl

• tagesanzeiger.ch

• nzz.ch

You might get an impression.

17 hours ago, CharonY said:

Yeah, infrastructure was one of the initial shocks getting to the US (well, North America, really). It is a bit hard to describe and you'll get used to it eventually, but things are just built differently and even if new they have not the polished look and feel of newly built infrastructure in much of Europe.

Many American have a weird obsession with Europe and a lot of their knowledge gaps are filled with assumptions. In the beginning that was weird. It is not that Europeans do not have biases and assumptions, but at least they do not appear to be as confident in their wrongness (unless it is about local things, that is an entirely different ballgame). But to some degree it was a bit endearing, even as it got a bit tiresome trying to explain e.g. what a social democracy is.... But at some point it feels that this curious cluelessness turned malicious and I cannot really pinpoint when exactly it happened. Clearly along the way this lack of knowledge has been weaponized and at least for some, it solidified into an imagined reality from which they extrapolate, make decisions and justify actions.

And honestly, that is scary. It is a level of auto-propaganda that is already impacting society in way that I don't think we fully grasp.

And we Brits are happily skipping into the same abyss.

Every year, in my country "lest we forget" is being weaponised and directed against the very fight that inspired the words.

Willful ignorance of the uncomfortable facts that disagree with our chosen excuse for self interest; but in fairness, everyone has a price.

Humanities inability to learn from history, despite the number of PhD's from that dept, is a deliciously ironic tragedy...

5 hours ago, Linkey said:

These indices are made by people who serve global elites.

Are you sure that in US people drink more than in Sweden?

Speaking of the Muslim countries, they just have a prohibition on alcohol because of their religion. They are not free.

They're free of alcohol 😉, didn't you just say/infer that that's a good thing to aspire too?

What level of freedom is the best level of freedom?

6 hours ago, Sensei said:

..this does not tell us anything about how many square meters per capita there are in these apartments/houses..

This would exclude most cities. Where I live, no one has a single-story house in the city. That would be crazy. Even if someone builds a single-family house in the countryside, it has at least one floor (which in some countries means it has two floors). The ground floor is the ground floor. The first floor is the next level. And, of course, there's the basement. Nobody builds without a basement here.

If it occupies 10x10 m² of land, and because it has three levels including a basement, this gives a usable area of approximately 300 m².

And what about the basement? Is it also included in this area?

If someone has a sloping roof, this space, the attic, is still used and is then called an entresol.

Available land or property price's, seems like a tangent until you factor in location and then it becomes a distraction...

One topic at a time, please.

18 hours ago, Eise said:

Well, @linkey, I would propose you come here and visit me here in Switzerland, and look how it looks like the UdSSR...

I suppose, Switzerland is an exception to the EU countries. I really like the direct democracy there (referendums each 3 months).

8 hours ago, Linkey said:

I suppose, Switzerland is an exception to the EU countries.

Not really. Yes, it is richer than most European countries, except maybe some Scandinavian countries. But in general you won't get some culture shock if you move from one country to the other. Some things nearly all European countries have, including Switzerland

• a state pension

• for employees obligatory additional pension saving programs

• social security for unemployed, and for elderly where the state pension is not enough

• obligatory health insurance

• different degrees of job protection, so no 'hire and fire' culture

But we have free speech: no threatening of leftist or objective newspapers and TV- and radio stations as happens now under Trump. Political satire is not banned in (West-) European countries. There is no ban on scientific facts, as under Trump. If everything develops further as it does now in the USA, you will soon live under right wing dictatorship, and Europe is the last democratic bastion. Maybe until it also falls because of extremist right wing policies. Or Putin starts his war against Europe...

8 hours ago, Linkey said:

I really like the direct democracy there (referendums each 3 months).

Yes, there can be a maximum of one referendum day per 3 months. But that on itself does not make Switzerland the most democratic state, e.g. payments to political actors (referendum committees) may be done secretly, which is e.g. not allowed in Germany (see e.g. the CDU donations scandal), judges must be member of of political party, and even free press is partially threatened, by right wing parties.

On 9/25/2025 at 11:02 PM, Sensei said:

This would exclude most cities. Where I live, no one has a single-story house in the city. That would be crazy.

North America would like to have a word.

On 9/25/2025 at 11:45 PM, Linkey said:

These indices are made by people who serve global elites.

Oh good, so we should just make up stuff instead, yes?

On 9/25/2025 at 11:45 PM, Linkey said:

Are you sure that in US people drink more than in Sweden?

You could easily look up stuff yourself. And based on Wikipedia, yes they do if only slightly. North Korea, China Haiti have much lower alcohol consumption than the so obviously they are much freer according to your assumptions.

On 9/25/2025 at 11:45 PM, Linkey said:

Speaking of the Muslim countries, they just have a prohibition on alcohol because of their religion. They are not free.

Which then clearly shows that your measure is just silly.

Again, before trying to extrapolate, you might want to try to get at least a few facts right.

34 minutes ago, CharonY said:

You could easily look up stuff yourself.

I think Linkey is allergic to actually citing facts and providing sources.

34 minutes ago, CharonY said:

And based on Wikipedia, yes they do if only slightly. North Korea, China Haiti have much lower alcohol consumption than the so obviously they are much freer according to your assumptions.

Also from https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/alcohol-consumption-per-capita/country-comparison/

And given the slice of the US that is puritanical, the ones that drink, drink a bit more. I’ve lived in places that didn’t sell alcohol (even beer) on Sundays, and there are a fair number of “dry” counties and municipalities (which means there are likely still moonshiners out there and certainly home brewers)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dry_communities_by_U.S._state

While we are at it, many (but not all) European countries have stronger separation of powers as well as having parliamentary system. As such, it is more difficult to consolidate power as per the unitary executive theory. As such a president or chancellor would not be able to arbitrarily threaten individuals for exercising free speech or effectively cancel academic freedom as it is done now. Even before the recent event the "Americans have more freedoms" is a bit of a trope, but had some nuggets of truth. But given that apparently much of the freedom is actually not secured but relying on norms, we do see them getting destroyed in less than a year.

But then uninformed self-delusion is exactly what makes this type of norm-breaking possible:

On 9/27/2025 at 6:09 PM, swansont said:

I think Linkey is allergic to actually citing facts and providing sources.

In a broader sense at least part of it is that in most societies we have allowed rich folks to wield unaccountable powers. And this power extends beyond political influence. It includes our day-to-day lives, the way we consume information, the way we communicate with each other, the way understand or misunderstand each other, the way our attention is spent. Ultimately, the way we think. We have outsourced a vast amount of what makes us humans to companies, which have found a way to make money out of it. Heck, they make more money if we fight each other. The politicians that are aware and getting adapt at using this machinery are also feeding of it and get ridiculous individuals into position of power. It is an incredibly powerful, world-wide machinery that is actively lowering our attention span and critical thinking skills.

34 minutes ago, CharonY said:

While we are at it, many (but not all) European countries have stronger separation of powers as well as having parliamentary system. As such, it is more difficult to consolidate power as per the unitary executive theory. As such a president or chancellor would not be able to arbitrarily threaten individuals for exercising free speech or effectively cancel academic freedom as it is done now. Even before the recent event the "Americans have more freedoms" is a bit of a trope, but had some nuggets of truth. But given that apparently much of the freedom is actually not secured but relying on norms, we do see them getting destroyed in less than a year.

But then uninformed self-delusion is exactly what makes this type of norm-breaking possible:

In a broader sense at least part of it is that in most societies we have allowed rich folks to wield unaccountable powers. And this power extends beyond political influence. It includes our day-to-day lives, the way we consume information, the way we communicate with each other, the way understand or misunderstand each other, the way our attention is spent. Ultimately, the way we think. We have outsourced a vast amount of what makes us humans to companies, which have found a way to make money out of it. Heck, they make more money if we fight each other. The politicians that are aware and getting adapt at using this machinery are also feeding of it and get ridiculous individuals into position of power. It is an incredibly powerful, world-wide machinery that is actively lowering our attention span and critical thinking skills.

The only thing I would quibble with is this.

34 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The politicians that are aware and getting adapt at using this machinery

I would add the words "some politcians......................... some are just inept".

Small point, I assume you mean adept not adapt.

+1

2 minutes ago, studiot said:

The only thing I would quibble with is this.

I would add the words "some politcians......................... some are just inept".

Small point, I assume you mean adept not adapt.

+1

Yepp, well spotted

On 9/25/2025 at 4:16 AM, Linkey said:

As far as I can see, if we compare USA with Europe, the latter looks like USSR: it has more equality, but less freedom. The laws control everything in Europe; for example, cucumbers for sale must be of a strictly defined shape.

Comparing things to an institution which has not existed for about a third of a century is... odd.
On December 25, 1991, the Soviet hammer and sickle flag lowered for the last time over the Kremlin, thereafter replaced by the Russian tricolor.


I own a 3 necked flask.
It's just a bit of glass, but it is banned in Texas.

You can sell any cucumber you like in Europe, provided that it's fit to eat, or clearly marked as not being so.

You seem to have fundamentally failed to grasp the difference between US and UK (and, to an extent, the rest of Europe's) law.
Americans often point out that the UK has no "bill of rights".
That is true.
We don't need one.

We effectively have a "bill or wrongs".
We have a long list of laws which tell you what you are forbidden to do (and owning a gun is not on that list, no matter what Faux news told you)

Anything which is not forbidden is permitted by default.

Part of the reason that many UK houses are relatively small is that they are old.
Another is that they are not made of cardboard.

20 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

You seem to have fundamentally failed to grasp the difference between US and UK (and, to an extent, the rest of Europe's) law.
Americans often point out that the UK has no "bill of rights".
That is true.
We don't need one.

We effectively have a "bill or wrongs".
We have a long list of laws which tell you what you are forbidden to do (and owning a gun is not on that list, no matter what Faux news told you)

There is an interesting tale of Kurt Godel's application for US citizenship in Adam Kucharski's 2025 book 'Proof'.

When told that the US constitution could/would not allow a mad dictator he apparantly said that he could proove otherwise, noting that he had already shown the Prussian and Napoleonic codes to be logically flawed.

We think Yanks are bit nutty but they are our cousins so we love them.

42 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

We think Yanks are bit nutty but they are our cousins so we love them.

Only a bit ?

So compared to us they are pretty sane then.

😁

29 minutes ago, studiot said:

Only a bit ?

So compared to us they are pretty sane then.

😁

I have so many good Yank contacts on physics forums, very smart, real gents.

My favourite is a German guy, super smart mathematician. I am English and of all the peoples I have met the Germans were the closest.

Learning German for a few months then going to a festival where you are the only Brit was an eye opener.

What can I say, I like our German cousins, they are nuts and it was unexpected to see them that way, so close to us.

Yanks are us effectively, it's only been a few hundred years, by "us" I mean over here.

Irish, Italian, Jewish, Polish....

Art, literature, music, science and an ally when we needed them most.

Europe need to remember that WW2 would have been a different place if America would have decided not to send it's sons and daughters to war.

1 hour ago, pinball1970 said:

Europe need to remember that WW2 would have been a different place if America would have decided not to send it's sons and daughters to war.

Do you remember the 'Yanks always late sketch " ?

1 hour ago, pinball1970 said:

Art, literature, music, science and an ally when we needed them most.

Europe need to remember that WW2 would have been a different place if America would have decided not to send it's sons and daughters to war.

If, as many believe, the European theatre was won and lost on the Eastern front, do we not owe a greater debt of gratitude to the former USSR?

Just working through the logic of your argument 😉

7 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

If, as many believe, the European theatre was won and lost on the Eastern front, do we not owe a greater debt of gratitude to the former USSR?

Just working through the logic of your argument 😉

As the quote goes, the war was won by British brains, American steel and Soviet blood.

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

As the quote goes, the war was won by British brains, American steel and Soviet blood.

Roosevelt's support of the North Atlantic convoys to UK ports, and Barents Sea convoys to Arkangelsk and Murmansk prior to Pearl Harbor was a vital, if often overlooked contribution in the darkest days. My Dad lost a couple of cousins on the Hood and made sure I read The Cruel Sea by Nicholas Montserrat at a very tender age to make clear how brutal that episode was. Well over 50 years on, there are passages from that experience that still haunt my dreams. That and a visit to the site of Bergen-Belsen a few years later shaped a lifelong visceral reaction to Fascist ideology that the world needs now more than ever.

I seem to have let a ramble take over that post.

Hier legen funf tausand toten.

10 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Just working through the logic of your argument 😉

Absolutely. The road to Stalingrad was a slaughter house. You have probably already seen it but I recommend "the world at war" 1973, Narrated by Lawrence Olivier.

10 hours ago, studiot said:

Do you remember the 'Yanks always late sketch " ?

I don't remember the sketch but I remember the series. Harry Corbett died quite young from memory.

12 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Absolutely. The road to Stalingrad was a slaughter house. You have probably already seen it but I recommend "the world at war" 1973, Narrated by Lawrence Olivier.

O, don't get me started!

Oddly enough, I spent 1973 at a public boarding school that had an ambivalent attitude towards fascism that I was rather at odds with. 'World at War' wasn't on the approved viewing list so I used to skive off to my nearby Grandmother's house to watch it.

Later in life, I was invited to be lead cornet in the West Yorkshire Fire Service Band which among other duties, due to their close ties with the Barmy meant I got to do the Last Post at the Remembrance Day service alternately at Leeds and Bradford. That meant a lot to me. I was very lucky not to be born into 'interesting times', but at least I had some opportunity to show my respect for those who were, and who made the ultimate sacrifice.

8 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

the Last Post at the Remembrance Day service alternately at Leeds and Bradford

Nice.

All those working class towns and cities lost a lot of people in the wars. I read that the memorials were not merely to gather and remember but because there was no way they could get all those bodies back from the trenches. 900,000.

10 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

That and a visit to the site of Bergen-Belsen a few years later shaped a lifelong visceral reaction to Fascist ideology that the world needs now more than ever.

Couldn't agree more, but let's not forget that it's not the Fascism but the extent of Fascism that is the problem.
Same with Communism/Socialism; if taken to extremes, as was done by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, who between them killed more people than WW2 did, it is just as dangerous.

I'd like to think some countries, like Canada and European ones have found a reasonable mix of ideologies, but the US has started down the slippery slope towards extreme Fascism, not just due to its leaders, but the fact that almost half its population supports this slide. Unless righted soon, we could be in trouble.

I do hope it doesn't take a civil war to get the US back on track.