As far as I can see, if we compare USA with Europe, the latter looks like USSR: it has more equality, but less freedom. The laws control everything in Europe; for example, cucumbers for sale must be of a strictly defined shape. And this makes too difficult for a smart person to start its own business.

I have heard from many people, that in Europe, people drink more alcohol, than in the USA. This can be explained as the result of political situation. A psychologist have told me, that craving for alcohol is a consequence of the absence of aim in life; and it seems that the lack of freedom in Europe makes the Europeans more prone to alcohol. The Americans were at least able to elect a freak, who is not fully controlled by the global elites, while people in Europe don’t have such a possibility.

Edited September 25Sep 25 by Linkey

The way I see it, there is a case to be make that many Americans are woefully misinformed about the world and fill the gaps by making up narratives that at best are caricatures of the real situation. And perhaps more importantly, they don't care that they wrong.

Pretty much every statement here is either poorly informed our outright wrong. The only element I would tentatively agree on is that entrepreneurship is a bit harder as in the EU labor has more rights and the market is quite a bit more risk averse. But for the rest:

The cucumber example: there were guidelines and standards for cucumbers, but they have been abolished for more than a decade. While these regulations were not popular, it was not a way to control sales, but to classify the quality of the product. The USDA does have grades and labeling standards for certain foods, too. Comparing that to the restrictions of freedom of the USSR is, simply put, ignorant.

Freeeeeeedom: while freedom is hard to quantify, most freedom indices put the USA below a wide range of European Countries (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country)https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country) Unsurprisingly, as it turns out, extreme inequality does restrict a wide range of freedom. Who would have thought? And obviously, this year is going to be extremely bad for the US and I expect that for this year things like media freedom are going to drop further.

Alcohol: the idea that alcohol consumption is linked to freedom is quite laughable. Rather than relying on "someone totally real told me so" you could simply check out statistics on alcohol consumption. Based on that, Muslim countries like Afghanistan must be incredibly free. Or just, you know, think a bit. The US alcohol consumption is just where Burkina Faso is, but higher than, say Malta, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and also China. Does it line up with any pattern that you want to see?

Global elites: I mean that is just silly on its face and at minimum requires a proper definition of what the global elites are. The way I see it, in almost all countries corporations and the rich have outsized unchecked power and in the US they managed to to have one of them to take control of the highest office. It is the most direct case of an elite taking over governmental powers and that folks still somehow think that this is an anti-elitist movement is just weirdly fascinating to see. And extremely worrisome.

This also exemplifies why politics especially in the USA (but, to be fair, there is a world-wide trend in that direction) is just in such a bad shape. Folks do not bother to even check the simplest of facts and just make things up and expect not to be challenged on them. Heck, the US administration is taking the lead in that by contradicting themselves in the same sentence and yet expect the press to play along.

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

As far as I can see, if we compare USA with Europe, the latter looks like USSR: it has more equality, but less freedom.

You've never been to the USSR. In Soviet times, you got food ration cards, and you were allocated a certain amount of meat, milk, bread, butter, vodka, etc. per person per month. You couldn't just go and buy, say, 10 kg of beef because you were having a birthday party. You would have to take food ration cards from your guests, and even then, the store probably wouldn't give you the 10 kg of beef you needed.

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

The laws control everything in Europe; for example, cucumbers for sale must be of a strictly defined shape.

From what I know, these definitions apply to fruit and vegetables that are sold retail to the final customers. In other words, vegetables that do not meet the standards are used to produce juices, preserves, and animal feed. Nothing goes to waste.

These weird-looking creatures would be ignored by customers anyway, because in Europe, unlike in the US, customers can choose which fruits and vegetables they want.

You choose what you want, weigh it, and stick a label on it. You don't get something unknown in a sealed bag, which is disallowed to open, and then if you bought it, have to throw it away when it turns out to be rotten.

If something is ugly, does not meet aesthetic standards, it gets lower prices in stores.

This week, I bought garlic for $0.25 per bulb, which was a 50% discount, but then I realized that it was smaller than usual. What I saved on the price, I worked hard to get these little ones out of their shells.

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

And this makes too difficult for a smart person to start its own business.

What utter nonsense. Over the course of a year, 1% of the local population started their own business.

And what does it look like in the US? To have such statistics, 3.4 million single-member companies would have to be created per a year.

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

I have heard from many people, that in Europe, people drink more alcohol, than in the USA. This can be explained as the result of political situation.

When I read such nonsense on the Internet, I really need a drink... ;)

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

A psychologist have told me,

You should visit him more often. ;)

I think that statistics on having a private psychiatrist say more about the problems of a given society... ;)

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

The Americans were at least able to elect a freak, who is not fully controlled by the global elites, while people in Europe don’t have such a possibility.

Did those who voted for him go to a psychiatrist or not? Because I'm confused. Or maybe they did go and he hurt them?

3 hours ago, Linkey said:

And this makes too difficult for a smart person to start its own business.

Here, you can start your own business using your cell phone. And with a PC, it's even easier. You can even have a video conference with your future accountant, who will do most of the work for you. That's where it all starts.

It would take less time than writing this post.

5 hours ago, Linkey said:

And this makes too difficult for a smart person to start its own business.

Imagine how difficult it is to be a businessman in the US in today's political reality: you wake up in the morning and don't know if the containers you ordered a few weeks ago, which are sailing from another country, will bankrupt your company if you agree to pay the new customs duty, which changes every few days, weeks, or months.

You would like to have problems like European businessmen, such as making sure that bananas and cucumbers are reasonably attractive..

Anyone who imports, exports, or manufactures in the US will be living on tenterhooks until the end of this term.

Edited September 25Sep 25 by Sensei

6 hours ago, CharonY said:

The way I see it, there is a case to be make that many Americans are woefully misinformed about the world and fill the gaps by making up narratives that at best are caricatures of the real situation. And perhaps more importantly, they don't care that they wrong.

Having just watched the USA version of the reality show "Traitors" (I know, it's highly filtered), the level of "I know I'll be great" would have popped Popeye's thermometer, I think it's more of a cultural assumption.

8 hours ago, Linkey said:

As far as I can see, if we compare USA with Europe, the latter looks like USSR: it has more equality, but less freedom.

Have you seen the number of your fellow Americans that gets locked up, for essentially steeling a sandwhich bc their starving?

In Europe, we sometimes give sandwiches away, just in case your hungry.

Edited September 25Sep 25 by dimreepr

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Have you seen the number of your fellow Americans that gets locked up, for essentially steeling a sandwhich bc their starving?

You don't watch much American news, do you ?

Most Americans get locked up for simple dug possession, and then only if they are not white and rich.
Anybody who commits more serious crimes, like shooting up a school full of children, or driving while 'black', usually gets shot.
But apparently they've run out of jail space, as they're now starting to jail them ( don't want to call them convicts as they've never had a trial convict them ) in foreign countries with worse jail conditions than the Southern US.

Europe, the 'old world', is generally more 'liberal' than the US; that simply means they use different methods to 'control' their people.
While a 'conservative' US enacts strict laws and jails to control what you can do, a 'liberal' Europe tries to control how you think, by appealing to their morals or 'shaming' them,

Governments seem to be in the business of controlling their populace these days, not so much serving the populace, as that has become 'populism' and is now defined as a bad thing, where once it meant giving political power to the masses, not just the 'elites'.

8 hours ago, Linkey said:

for example, cucumbers for sale must be of a strictly defined shape

I’d ask you to back this up with a link, but you can’t. The law/regulation was repealed in 2009

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_09_1059

Was the USSR in the habit of modifying regulations in response to feedback?

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

You don't watch much American news, do you ?

Most Americans get locked up for simple dug possession, and then only if they are not white and rich.
Anybody who commits more serious crimes, like shooting up a school full of children, or driving while 'black', usually gets shot.
But apparently they've run out of jail space, as they're now starting to jail them ( don't want to call them convicts as they've never had a trial convict them ) in foreign countries with worse jail conditions than the Southern US.

Europe, the 'old world', is generally more 'liberal' than the US; that simply means they use different methods to 'control' their people.
While a 'conservative' US enacts strict laws and jails to control what you can do, a 'liberal' Europe tries to control how you think, by appealing to their morals or 'shaming' them,

Governments seem to be in the business of controlling their populace these days, not so much serving the populace, as that has become 'populism' and is now defined as a bad thing, where once it meant giving political power to the masses, not just the 'elites'.

I try to ignore as much news as possible...

What are you trying to tell me?

Just now, dimreepr said:

What are you trying to tell me?

Don't visit the US ...

LOL, I have done but it was far more clement back then...

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Having just watched the USA version of the reality show "Traitors" (I know, it's highly filtered), the level of "I know I'll be great" would have popped Popeye's thermometer, I think it's more of a cultural assumption.

getting them to cooperate is like pulling teeth, at a dental convention...

@Linkey Living in Europe, I can only tell you that it is complete bullshit what you are saying here about it. No idea what your sources are.

10 hours ago, Linkey said:

The Americans were at least able to elect a freak, who is not fully controlled by the global elites, while people in Europe don’t have such a possibility.

I am afraid that even in Europe people can be elected that are totalitarian as well. You are interested in political science, as I see in your profile. Why don't you start reading serious text books about it?

And thanks @CharonY for your patience to explain it all. @Linkey keeps on doing this: spouting some baseless prejudices about Europe, where he obviously knows nothing about how it is to live here.

A big +1

Oh, and btw, years ago I was in Morristown, New Jersey, and was astonished about the bad infrastructure. It reminded me of my trip to Indonesia, even longer ago. Badly maintained streets, walk ways, buildings, the motorway from the airport to Morristown, etc. Just say'n, @Linkey .

2 hours ago, Eise said:

Oh, and btw, years ago I was in Morristown, New Jersey, and was astonished about the bad infrastructure. It reminded me of my trip to Indonesia, even longer ago. Badly maintained streets, walk ways, buildings, the motorway from the airport to Morristown, etc. Just say'n,

Yeah, infrastructure was one of the initial shocks getting to the US (well, North America, really). It is a bit hard to describe and you'll get used to it eventually, but things are just built differently and even if new they have not the polished look and feel of newly built infrastructure in much of Europe.

2 hours ago, Eise said:

And thanks @CharonY for your patience to explain it all. @Linkey keeps on doing this: spouting some baseless prejudices about Europe, where he obviously knows nothing about how it is to live here.

Many American have a weird obsession with Europe and a lot of their knowledge gaps are filled with assumptions. In the beginning that was weird. It is not that Europeans do not have biases and assumptions, but at least they do not appear to be as confident in their wrongness (unless it is about local things, that is an entirely different ballgame). But to some degree it was a bit endearing, even as it got a bit tiresome trying to explain e.g. what a social democracy is.... But at some point it feels that this curious cluelessness turned malicious and I cannot really pinpoint when exactly it happened. Clearly along the way this lack of knowledge has been weaponized and at least for some, it solidified into an imagined reality from which they extrapolate, make decisions and justify actions.

And honestly, that is scary. It is a level of auto-propaganda that is already impacting society in way that I don't think we fully grasp.

I would just say the US is fifty states with wildly differing qualities of infrastructure. Almost choked on my coffee, imagining parts of New Jersey as representative of the US as a whole. Someone from Salt Lake City or Eugene, Oregon or Minneapolis or Lincoln, Nebraska or Boulder, Colorado would feel like they'd gone to another country in New Jersey. I do think the number one aspect of infrastructure where we fall way short of Europe is in mass transit - the stubborn insistence on using a personal vehicle for almost all trips is a cultural thing which influences many elements of quality of life: air quality, noise levels, traffic congestion, massive parking lots displacing parks and other human spaces, obesity rates, etc. Note that US cities that often get ranked highest in quality of life are more "European" in being pedestrian friendly and having protected greenspace and reliable mass transit and safe bike lanes.

7 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I would just say the US is fifty states with wildly differing qualities of infrastructure. Almost choked on my coffee, imagining parts of New Jersey as representative of the US as a whole. Someone from Salt Lake City or Eugene, Oregon or Minneapolis or Lincoln, Nebraska or Boulder, Colorado would feel like they'd gone to another country in New Jersey. I do think the number one aspect of infrastructure where we fall way short of Europe is in mass transit - the stubborn insistence on using a personal vehicle for almost all trips is a cultural thing which influences many elements of quality of life: air quality, noise levels, traffic congestion, massive parking lots displacing parks and other human spaces, obesity rates, etc. Note that US cities that often get ranked highest in quality of life are more "European" in being pedestrian friendly and having protected greenspace and reliable mass transit and safe bike lanes.

While not wrong, I would argue that on average, European infrastructure on many levels at least seems to outperform their US equivalent. One could also try to look at the highest end in Europe and compare to the best structures in the US, but I don't have any data to do so. But living in and traveling through the respective regions, there is a marked difference. There are areas in Europe with notoriously bad infrastructure, too. However, the EU has invested quite a bit in certain areas and those just look much better than most newly built infrastructure in I have seen, at least in the US southwest, for example.

The difference is a bit hard to describe, though I suspect there are engineering reasons. Many roads, and especially buildings in the US are built with a lower life-time in mind, it seems. Things are built much faster in the US, but especially up close there significant differences. You can repair a significant part of the house with paint, mud and drywall which I still find somewhat funny.

Let's throw in a few facts and figures shall we ?

The population density is around 98 persons per square mile.
That of Germany is around 625 persons per square mile.
Eise comes from an area of even more densely populated.

This has two results.

1) Germany has far less scope for the spread out american housing estates we see in the movies.

2) Germany is also pushed for food production space.

The first time I visited our friends in North West Germany I was struck by their typical house construction, which always included a huge basement.

My friends explained that since we had flattened the industrial heartland of Germany in the war everything was new (unlike France or England).

And the new building regulations required a bomb shelter basement for all new houses.

32 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The difference is a bit hard to describe, though I suspect there are engineering reasons. Many roads, and especially buildings in the US are built with a lower life-time in mind, it seems. Things are built much faster in the US, but especially up close there significant differences. You can repair a significant part of the house with paint, mud and drywall which I still find somewhat funny.

Oh yes, I agree Europe is generally ahead on multiple aspects of infrastructure. Many places here grew quite rapidly, and there was a pressure to slap up developments quickly, and not build sturdy or storm/fire-proof. And now we have places where insurance companies just abandon a whole region because homes were not built to withstand hurricanes or flooding. Back in New York's rough years in the 70's, landlords would burn their properties in the Bronx for quick money because they were impossible to sell to anyone. Then the insurance companies pulled out, obviously. So no new projects could be built there. The whole country has major problems with zoning and insurance and other things that need to resolved if new better housing and infrastructure is wanted.

The areas I'm most familiar with would be Niagara Falls ( New York ), Buffalo and Rochester.
In my younger days I spent most of my weekend nights in the seediest areas of those cities.
And you think New Jersey's bad ?

The bridges connecting Grand Island between Niagara Falls and Buffalo always scared the bejeesus out of me when I crossed them.
The only thing holding them together was the rust

1 hour ago, studiot said:

The population density is around 98 persons per square mile.
That of Germany is around 625 persons per square mile.
Eise comes from an area of even more densely populated.

Population density has a huge impact on infrastructure, no doubt. But there are also engineering guidelines and practices, some of which are adapted to varying densities and other parameters, of course. In much of Europe brick construction is standard, whereas in NA most dwelling are wood based. It is not to say that one is fundamentally better than the others, but they create a different feel and also long-term durability. When I arrived in the US, I was basically told that folks are basically moving every 15 years or so, which is a fair bit of a different attitude regarding homes than e.g. in Germany (not sure about the UK).

1 hour ago, studiot said:

1) Germany has far less scope for the spread out american housing estates we see in the movies.

2) Germany is also pushed for food production space.

I am not really sure whether Germany is pushed for space. It is certainly more limited than the USA, and around half of the area is used for agriculture. I believe it was always assumed that food sovereignty was lower than the USA, but was more self sufficient than, e.g. the UK, for what it is worth.

1 hour ago, studiot said:

And the new building regulations required a bomb shelter basement for all new houses.

I never heard of that regulation. From what I understand these basements became increasingly rare postwar and quite a few of the buildings I have seen that were built shortly after the war had tiny basements (in North-Rhine Westphalia), while others were older and more cavernous. I always thought that during WWII a lot of basements were expanded and depending on what was left, the new buildings might or might not use them.

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Oh yes, I agree Europe is generally ahead on multiple aspects of infrastructure. Many places here grew quite rapidly, and there was a pressure to slap up developments quickly, and not build sturdy or storm/fire-proof. And now we have places where insurance companies just abandon a whole region because homes were not built to withstand hurricanes or flooding.

Yes, it is a different building philosophy and it does make sense considering the availability of resources, but also the simple fact that in Europe you have homes still standing (though hopefully renovated) that were built way before the USA existed. One of the homes I lived in had still original parts from the 15th century.

The basement, however was basically a catacomb (nothing was straight for more than 1.5m) and I always kind of expected the undead to rise from there eventually.

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

I am not really sure whether Germany is pushed for space. It is certainly more limited than the USA, and around half of the area is used for agriculture. I believe it was always assumed that food sovereignty was lower than the USA, but was more self sufficient than, e.g. the UK, for what it is worth.

Source https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/house-size-by-country

Sorry, I meant to say, pushed for space specifically for agriculture. At least lack of agricultural space was never much in discussion, from what I recall. Plus, the Netherlands, which has an even higher population density than Germany is a famously huge net food exporter. I.e. free area is not the sole factor in that regard.

5 hours ago, CharonY said:

The basement, however was basically a catacomb (nothing was straight for more than 1.5m) and I always kind of expected the undead to rise from there eventually.

Our basement has cats but no catacomb. Sometimes they make noises down there that will raise the dead - there is a constant struggle where I try to figure out how to secure all materials in the workbench area and storage area and they figure out how to dislodge them and knock them around, then hide them. Cats have 50% more cortical neurons than a dog, and they are all devoted to mischief. (And none to obedience, which is why I like them)

5 hours ago, CharonY said:

One of the homes I lived in had still original parts from the 15th century.

Impressive. In this area, our house built in 1906 is considered quite old. The foundation is heavy fieldstone walls, two foot thick in some places, which is atypical of US basements.

4 hours ago, studiot said:

Source

Gosh… who are all those folks in the US with such tiny 2500 sq.ft. houses? 😂

It’s a shame they used average instead of median

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Gosh… who are all those folks in the US with such tiny 2500 sq.ft. houses? 😂

It’s a shame they used average instead of median

You do know that it's not about the size, but how you use it, right ;)?

6 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Cats have 50% more cortical neurons than a dog, and they are all devoted to mischief. (And none to obedience, which is why I like them)

I am pretty sure that the number was made up by cats.

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

You do know that it's not about the size, but how you use it, right ;)?

False dichotomy. Those aren’t mutually exclusive 😝

I see a lot of room for misinterpretation here. “House size.” Do these statistics literally include only houses or apartments in skyscrapers? If I have an apartment in a tenement building and I rent it out, will it also be counted, and how? Just because someone owns an apartment, house, or tenement building does not mean that they cannot sublet it to someone else—in which case, the space per capita for themselves will decrease.

Average of what? Owner? If I own 10 houses, how does that affect these statistics?

The area of the house may include the garage area and areas that are completely unsuitable for living. Or even utility areas. How do you calculate the average?

In the US, many houses stand empty because banks have taken them away from their owners. Are they also included in these statistics?

Edited September 26Sep 26 by Sensei