For the first time since the good old days, a far-right Nazi-affiliated party has won a state election. Both states are located in the East. The party is buoyed by anti-EU and foreigner sentiments (though, as per usual, in these areas the percentage of foreigners is very low). Also, they are pro-Russia, as it is often the case in European far-right parties.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/01/europe/far-right-germany-regional-election-win-intl-latam/index.html

Surveys suggest that especially young people are voting for the extremes and about half of the voters indicated that they did not vote for them out of protest but out of ideological agreement. Considering that they, similar to Trump as an example, provide a bizarre view on society, which is disconnected with reality (e.g in terms of crime rates), it does not bode very well for traditional parties. I suspect that there is a big role for social media to be uncovered, and as it turns out, the young ones might be more likely to be susceptible to disinformation.

Another troubling example in a larger trend that’s being amplified by bad actors intentionally tuning media diets 

I wonder if it is right wing Christian base like the GOP is in the US?

23 minutes ago, nec209 said:

I wonder if it is right wing Christian base like the GOP is in the US?

Nope, it glorifies European culture, is anti-Muslim but not explicitly Christian (other than claiming that Europeans, and Christians are suppressed). However, due to their past, East Europe is generally very atheist.

People who don't learn from history ...

Strange how 'traditional' NAZIs hated and opposed Communist Russia, while the 'new improved' version seems to admire Russia's style.

Well, they do not pretend to be communist anymore. It is now a happy authoritarian family.

6 hours ago, MigL said:

People who don't learn from history ...

Strange how 'traditional' NAZIs hated and opposed Communist Russia, while the 'new improved' version seems to admire Russia's style.

Same shit, different labels.

Also, the practical line between capitalism and communism has mostly eroded. Heck, folks nowadays are getting confused that Nazis had "socialist" in their name. The distinction is mostly to establish ideological lines, it seems to me, with very little practical impact. While xenophobia being an unsurprising aspect, it seems that gender roles plays a surprisingly high role of far-right pro Russia sentiments (and which also shows in the gender gap in voters).

Just to getting back to OP: in Thuringia the AfD won 38% of the male voters, but only 27% of the female voters. This 11% gap is more than double of the next largest gap (4%, then 2%).

It feels strange as intuitively it does not seem to be such a big thing, but it is something that starts to be persistent in multiple countries (we see similar trends with Trump voters). For the US it was assumed that overturning Roe v Wade was a critical point, but the trend was already there before, and it does not apply to Germany (and other countries).

12 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Same shit, different labels.

Yep. Under capitalism humans exploit other humans. Under communism, it is the other way round.

(Not mine of course...)

22 hours ago, MigL said:

People who don't learn from history ...

Strange how 'traditional' NAZIs hated and opposed Communist Russia, while the 'new improved' version seems to admire Russia's style.

Isn't that all of us? 

We can't even learn from simple fiction, it seems...

The grapes of wrath, et al... (the clues, often, in the title.)

On 9/1/2024 at 6:29 PM, CharonY said:

For the first time since the good old days, a far-right Nazi-affiliated party has won a state election. Both states are located in the East. The party is buoyed by anti-EU and foreigner sentiments (though, as per usual, in these areas the percentage of foreigners is very low). Also, they are pro-Russia, as it is often the case in European far-right parties.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/01/europe/far-right-germany-regional-election-win-intl-latam/index.html

Surveys suggest that especially young people are voting for the extremes and about half of the voters indicated that they did not vote for them out of protest but out of ideological agreement. Considering that they, similar to Trump as an example, provide a bizarre view on society, which is disconnected with reality (e.g in terms of crime rates), it does not bode very well for traditional parties. I suspect that there is a big role for social media to be uncovered, and as it turns out, the young ones might be more likely to be susceptible to disinformation.

Pro-Russia? That's ironic given the history German has had with Russia in WWII.

The AFD has now won Saxony-Anhalt with ca. 44% of the votes according to latest results. It is the state with the oldest population and among the lowest percentage of foreigners. They are projected to barely miss the absolute majority, which would have made them take over the government. They still can, if they are tolerated by at least one other party. The only likely party is a populist one with mixed left and right populist messages but they already signaled that they likely won't. That all being said, it does show that the pivot to the right by the conservatives (CDU) did not pan out, rather then gaining votes from the far right, they lost over 19%, whereas the Afd won 23%.

OH-Oh!

Next thing you know Germany will be signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop II Pact with Russia ...

Well, they do do have a strong pro-Russia bias, which I am sure has nothing to do with financing of pro-Russian far-right influencers and sponsored trips of party members.

Reading some media outlets, such as the UK dailyfail (dailymail) website you would think they had won in the whole of Germany and not simply in a region in the former East Germany.

Interesting point is about low immigration, prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall, West Germany would have benefitted from immigration, joined the EU etc, this brought culture, much needed skills etc. Meanwhile East Germany probably lost out (or was their free movement within what would I think have been the USSR?.

So a few questions, I was only 12/13 when the wall fell, so I have some memories of this being on the news, but also that I may not have understood the full implications at the time.

After the Berlin wall fell and Germany was unified, what happened?

Did the same anti immigration / xenophobic sentiment linger on?

Did they find a way to benefit from immigration bringing in skills etc?

Was their free movement within the old USSR?

If the Former East Germany got left behind was this a problem of their own making?

5 hours ago, paulsutton said:

was this a problem of their own making?

It’s seems more likely the result of amplified tribal propaganda prioritized through algorithms by state actors in competing power centers

6 hours ago, paulsutton said:

If the Former East Germany got left behind was this a problem of their own making?

Yes, the region has been largely deindustrialised via economic austerity policies resulting in a braindrain to the West leaving an aging population many of whom feel betrayed by 'liberal democracy' and yearn for a return to the certainties of authoritarian rule.

In addition to @iNow 's comment on the influence of social media, it should also be noted that Merz is really unpopular just now so the ruling centre-right CDU party is leaking votes like a sieve.

11 hours ago, paulsutton said:

After the Berlin wall fell and Germany was unified, what happened?

A lot of things happened. Essentially the country unified overnight and among the many things, a bit change was that the East German currency was converted 1:1 to the West German currency. A big issue arising from there was economic issues. In the former DDR (East Germany) companies were run by the state and had poor productivity. The currency exchange resulted in East Germans suddenly made ca. 70% of the income for their West German conterparts, however the industries had about 30-40% of their productivity. I.e. when converted to private companies, none of them were really viable.

A second big change was the rebuilding of East Germany to address the issue. West Germans paid additional tax on their income, which got transferred to East Germany for big infrastructure projects. While it was supposed to be short-term, it ended up to be permanent. Ca. 400 billion euros were collected from it, and in addition to other project over 2 trillion euros were ultimately poured into East Germany in attempt to balance the economy between east and west. However, this was only partially successful and mostly worked in some of the larger cities (e.g., Dresden). A big issue was that Germany's economy was heavily built on middle-sized companies creating a supply-chain infrastructure for the larger ones (a model that is now in crisis, but worked very well in the past). But ultimately it was not seen as attractive to create companies in East Germany on that scale. Moreover, due to wage imbalance, many young folks moved to West Germany for better opportunities.

Likewise, foreign investor saw West Germany as a better place for investment with adding issues later with xenophobia to the mix (though probably only a minor economic concern).

12 hours ago, paulsutton said:

Did the same anti immigration / xenophobic sentiment linger on?

Germany always had a somewhat xenophobic, ethnonationalist undertone, both in the West and East. In the West it was more covert, but especially in the 90s and early 2000s Germany did reject the idea of immigration as positive thing and for the longest time considered foreign workers as guests rather than members of society. This ultimately clashed with the reality of the need to get foreign talent in, and, unsurprisingly folks living there for a long time wanted to make a home, rather than return to their home countries after years or decades living in Germany and building a life and family there. However, few foreigners went to East Germany outside of the major cities and xenophobia remained much more overt. There had been cases of black workers and university students chased by groups of far-right youths, for example and open racism is still frequently reported by folks I know.

12 hours ago, paulsutton said:

Did they find a way to benefit from immigration bringing in skills etc?

Germany as a whole didn't like the idea of bringing talent in politically. Companies wanted to, but the most citizens resented that idea. There was a large discussion over it during the dot com boom and the government was loath to issue work visa for highly qualified folks. The idea really was to only bring temporary, low wage worker who then can be sent back rather rapidly. Again, something that didn't really worked like this in reality.

12 hours ago, paulsutton said:

Was their free movement within the old USSR?

No, the unification was complete and East Germans had not difference there. Except perhaps that they were fluent in Russian.

12 hours ago, paulsutton said:

If the Former East Germany got left behind was this a problem of their own making?

Yes and no, see above. One could argue that the privatization of the east was mismanaged, but the roots were formed in the DDR.

5 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Yes, the region has been largely deindustrialised via economic austerity policies

I don't this is fully accurate as such. As mentioned, a lot of money was poured in, though as a whole the German welfare system was suffering as a consequence. There were austerity principles, but still more money went from west to east, something that at some point built resentment in the west. The de-industrialization was more of a consequence of low productivity and even rebuilding infrastructure didn't fully resolve this.

5 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Merz is really unpopular just now so the ruling centre-right CDU party is leaking votes like a sieve.

The idea was to move the CDU further to the right with Merz (he was ousted back in the day, in part because he was on the right fringe of the CDU and Merkel consolidated more towards the center). They hoped to gain votes from the AFD, and we can see that this is backfiring rather spectacularly. He is now despised by both right and left.

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Likewise, foreign investor saw West Germany as a better place for investment

It seems strange, then, that countries like the Czech Republic and Slovakia have become automotive manufacturing hubs for companies like VolksWagen Group, Hyundai and Toyota, and, VolksWagen ( again ), Kia, Stellantis, Jaguar/Land Rover, and Volvo, respectively.
What benefits did the former Czechoslovakia have over the former East Germany ?

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

It seems strange, then, that countries like the Czech Republic and Slovakia have become automotive manufacturing hubs for companies like VolksWagen Group, Hyundai and Toyota, and, VolksWagen ( again ), Kia, Stellantis, Jaguar/Land Rover, and Volvo, respectively.
What benefits did the former Czechoslovakia have over the former East Germany ?

I am not sure if this is the right answer, but companies seem to leave or arrive when the taxation and other systems are in place to make more attractive or changed so they are less attractive. May not be related, but BP have pulled out of the North Sea due to it being less viable.

So a change of government and then policy on a range of issues can either attract, deter or force companies to move. I know the National Insurance rises for employers in the UK is causing a good few issues with regard to recruitment.

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

What benefits did the former Czechoslovakia have over the former East Germany ?

Škoda vs Wartburg & Trabant

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

I don't this is true as such.

Fair comment. There's only so much nuance I could fit into a ten word critique of 30 years of a national economy.

Suffice to say that the GDP of the former East Germany has stubbornly remained at ca. 75% of that of the West, and the median family wealth distribution ratio is even more marked at ca. 3:1 in favour of the West.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

It seems strange, then, that countries like the Czech Republic and Slovakia have become automotive manufacturing hubs for companies like VolksWagen Group, Hyundai and Toyota, and, VolksWagen ( again ), Kia, Stellantis, Jaguar/Land Rover, and Volvo, respectively.
What benefits did the former Czechoslovakia have over the former East Germany ?

VW did invest into east Germany. What recall is that they reworked facilities such as in Zwickau. So there were heavy west German investment into the east.

51 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Suffice to say that the GDP of the former East Germany has stubbornly remained at ca. 75% of that of the West, and the median family wealth distribution ratio is even more marked at ca. 3:1 in favour of the West.

Yes, and much are historic structural issues. The fact that the west is draining talent and that Germany as a whole was resistant to immigration didn't help. Outside of major university cities the East especially didn't like to recruit foreigners, which would have helped the economy somewhat, so there is some self-inflicted pain and we see some of the worst elements happening in the east (aging community, stagnating economics and so on).

The big one however is that the DDR was built on industries that were on the decline already and while service economy become more relevant in the West, they were largely absent in the East. Entrepreneurs would ultimately go West Germany for more opportunities. It is a bit like the situation between Canada and the US, only that mobility within Germany, and given the short distances is way higher.

Fundamentally, there are folks full of nostalgia regarding their memories of the DDR, in which the government was propping up unproductive structures.

Another challenge is perceptions not rooted in reality. Many in east Germany have felt like they’re missing out and getting left behind, thus causing anger and resentment and a search for simple scapegoats. They do this despite having largely kept up / caught up with the rest of the country across most every metric over the last several years. Truthiness over truth.

11 minutes ago, iNow said:

Many in east Germany have felt like they’re missing out and getting left behind, thus causing anger and resentment and a search for simple scapegoats.

Do they actually feel that way, or are they being told by political parties, and social media, that they should be feeling that way ?
If people don't take an interest in what is going on around them, either because they are too dumb, or just don't care, you end up with a situation like the US.
The old Germans who remember, and know better, are becoming old and scarce.
The new generations are too 'hopped up' om social media, or they just don't care.

Just now, MigL said:

Do they actually feel that way, or are they being told by political parties, and social media, that they should be feeling that way ?

There is both. Even before social media some resentment was there between East and West, after the honeymoon period of reunification.

1 minute ago, MigL said:

The old Germans who remember, and know better, are becoming old and scarce.

Unfortunately there were also many old folks who actually want all that, minus the defeat in WWII and they taught their kids (now the old generation) accordingly. But yes crucial memory is fading.

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

The new generations are too 'hopped up' om social media, or they just don't care.

They do care but mostly for themselves and they lack the critical thinking skills to align that with reality.

27 minutes ago, iNow said:

Another challenge is perceptions not rooted in reality. Many in east Germany have felt like they’re missing out and getting left behind, thus causing anger and resentment and a search for simple scapegoats.

There is significant degree of that, though there are other factors at play. Almost everyone seems to feel left behind somehow. It is just some groups radicalize faster than others. But something weird is happening to society.