Is humanity inevitably heading toward disaster led by idiocy?

[AnimaAeterna]

It seems those in power tend to be greedy and not very inclined toward science. I often wonder if this is simply human nature. It seems that in order to attain a position of power you require certain inclinations and mindsets that tend to include a certain level of greed, among other things. 

I suspect It's far more complicated. Positions of power often involve stepping on eggshells and trying to please several parties (or at least not offending some parties). But I also feel a lot of it is related to greed and lack of empathy for other people. 

If this trend continues, and corruption along with it, where are we heading? How can we solve this problem? I feel like this topic would easily unravel into several subtopics but still I could discuss this for days. There's so much I'd like to understand about why things are this way, and what we can do about it.

It feels like, in our pursuit of knowledge and mastering nature, human nature is one of the things we understand and can adapt to the least. 

[mistermack]

Of course we are heading for disaster. I'm 73, so my own disaster isn't far off. Humanity's might be some way off, but we all get it in the end. And so what about human nature? You might as well moan about the nature of foxes. You are what you're born with, and there is no right or wrong, just a current consensus. 

[exchemist]

28 minutes ago, AnimaAeterna said:

It seems those in power tend to be greedy and not very inclined toward science. I often wonder if this is simply human nature. It seems that in order to attain a position of power you require certain inclinations and mindsets that tend to include a certain level of greed, among other things. 

I suspect It's far more complicated. Positions of power often involve stepping on eggshells and trying to please several parties (or at least not offending some parties). But I also feel a lot of it is related to greed and lack of empathy for other people. 

If this trend continues, and corruption along with it, where are we heading? How can we solve this problem? I feel like this topic would easily unravel into several subtopics but still I could discuss this for days. There's so much I'd like to understand about why things are this way, and what we can do about it.

It feels like, in our pursuit of knowledge and mastering nature, human nature is one of the things we understand and can adapt to the least. 

What makes you think those in power are any greedier than other people? Do you have evidence for that? Could it not simply be that, when one is in power, the opportunities to satisfy greed are greater?  

After all, many people enter politics to make the world a better place, as they see it. Most able people, if they are motivated simply by greed, can get greater rewards in other professions.

[AnimaAeterna]

6 minutes ago, exchemist said:

What makes you think those in power are any greedier than other people? Do you have evidence for that? Could it not simply be that, when one is in power, the opportunities to satisfy greed are greater?  

After all, many people enter politics to make the world a better place, as they see it. Most able people, if they are motivated simply by greed, can get greater rewards in other professions.

Well you make a valid point. If we assume everyone is equally greedy, then what we're trying to solve is human greed in general. But regardless if greed is more common with those in power or not, It's still a big thorn in our shoe. It could be indeed that the opportunities to satisfy greed are greater for those in power, but it could also be that greed finds success in the system and bears an advantage to acquire power. In fact it might be a complex combination of these and much more. Figuring that out is one of the first steps to solve the problem I think.

Your second paragraph really put things in perspective though. I mean, most certainly there are good politicians. Could the problem lie with those in power who have a large influence in politics?

18 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Of course we are heading for disaster. I'm 73, so my own disaster isn't far off. Humanity's might be some way off, but we all get it in the end. And so what about human nature? You might as well moan about the nature of foxes. You are what you're born with, and there is no right or wrong, just a current consensus. 

 

Well, It's not like there's nothing we can do. We could have moaned about a wide range of things we've managed to solve or improve over the years. We can extend the estimated span of existence for humanity. We are indeed, to a great extent, what we are born with. But we are also what we are exposed to. And we are also what we choose to be. It's a combination of these, at different levels. We can adapt, and in fact that is probably the most important feature of our species.

[Phi for All]

40 minutes ago, AnimaAeterna said:

It seems those in power tend to be greedy and not very inclined toward science. I often wonder if this is simply human nature. It seems that in order to attain a position of power you require certain inclinations and mindsets that tend to include a certain level of greed, among other things. 

We're seeing a lot of fascist tactics around the world, which tend to diminish the works of science and freethinkers, while glorifying both the military and corporate establishments, and simultaneously degrading labor, unions, marginalized peoples (LGBTQA, PoC, etc), civil rights, free media, fair elections, and constitutional protections.

I don't know about other countries, but the US has a tax structure that lets individuals sit on billions of dollars in personal wealth, and most people don't understand how much money that is, and how dangerous it is to allow individuals to keep that much without re-investment. For instance, let's pretend you get paid one US dollar every second. That's $60/minute, or $3600/hour, 24 hours/day, 365 days/year. Pretty outrageous pay, right? At that rate, it would take you between 11 and 12 days to make a million dollars. But at the same rate of pay, to earn a billion dollars would take almost 32 years. It's ludicrous that anybody needs that much money, and furthermore it's obvious that the folks who make multiple billions of dollars in just a few years are doing so off the  work of others while those others are barely making ends meet.

I don't think this is human nature at all. I think most people aren't extremists, but we've allowed the extremists in leadership positions where they've lobbied to make their money do things it shouldn't be able to do. This is NOT normal.

But it also doesn't have to lead to disaster. I'd like to see an end to rampant capitalism. We need a much better mix of social, state, and private spending, imo, where capitalism keeps it's greedy fingers out of socially-funded programs.

[exchemist]

48 minutes ago, AnimaAeterna said:

Well you make a valid point. If we assume everyone is equally greedy, then what we're trying to solve is human greed in general. But regardless if greed is more common with those in power or not, It's still a big thorn in our shoe. It could be indeed that the opportunities to satisfy greed are greater for those in power, but it could also be that greed finds success in the system and bears an advantage to acquire power. In fact it might be a complex combination of these and much more. Figuring that out is one of the first steps to solve the problem I think.

Your second paragraph really put things in perspective though. I mean, most certainly there are good politicians. Could the problem lie with those in power who have a large influence in politics?

 

Well, It's not like there's nothing we can do. We could have moaned about a wide range of things we've managed to solve or improve over the years. We can extend the estimated span of existence for humanity. We are indeed, to a great extent, what we are born with. But we are also what we are exposed to. And we are also what we choose to be. It's a combination of these, at different levels. We can adapt, and in fact that is probably the most important feature of our species.

It seems to me the way to control the effects of greed in political life is laws, standards and codes of conduct against corrupt practices, transparency, and a vigorous, free and serious press. (The role of law is vital, which is why recent events in Israel are so troubling.) 

[Phi for All]

19 minutes ago, exchemist said:

It seems to me the way to control the effects of greed in political life is laws, standards and codes of conduct against corrupt practices, transparency, and a vigorous, free and serious press. (The role of law is vital, which is why recent events in Israel are so troubling.) 

Exactly, and yet the fascists keep pushing for more control of people and less control of businesses. In the US, almost half the population has been tricked into thinking that "small government" is better. Those voters think "small government" means "stay out of my personal life", but to the corporations it means "little to no regulation". This is one area where idiocy is leading us towards disaster.

[StringJunky]

7 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Exactly, and yet the fascists keep pushing for more control of people and less control of businesses. In the US, almost half the population has been tricked into thinking that "small government" is better. Those voters think "small government" means "stay out of my personal life", but to the corporations it means "little to no regulation". This is one area where idiocy is leading us towards disaster.

They hark about "freedom", but only for  people that follow their selfish ideology.

Edited July 26, 2023 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

They hark about "freedom", but only for  people that follow their selfish ideology.

And ultimately, the ideology is just being used by capitalist extremists to split the lower classes and keep any kind of labor movement from happening. Something has to give though. We have too many people in the US who have to decide between living in a home or apartment and having a car. It's getting too expensive to have both, even with multiple incomes. The greed of capitalist extremists is astounding. 

[StringJunky]

15 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

And ultimately, the ideology is just being used by capitalist extremists to split the lower classes and keep any kind of labor movement from happening. Something has to give though. We have too many people in the US who have to decide between living in a home or apartment and having a car. It's getting too expensive to have both, even with multiple incomes. The greed of capitalist extremists is astounding. 

A glaring symptom of maintaining their autocratic aspirations is their persistent resistance to employment unionization. 

[Intoscience]

Greed is nothing new, people in power and wealth throughout history have continued to oppress the weaker less fortunate, while they continue to compound their personal wealth and power even further.

The difference now is the internet exposes, but also provides people with the opportunity to exploit. In addition the internet provides a platform for idiocy and the proponents of such to promote their ridiculous ideas.  At the same time it opens access to a wider audience (world wide) and thus people get to see how other people live, what they posses etc... where often people are exposed to a false sense of reality. 

Then we have the threat of AGI, whether that be independent A.I (self controlling and programming) or that which powerful wealthy people may use to manipulate the general population even further.  

It's interesting times but also quite alarming and certainly scary. Whether human society is doomed or not is too hard to say but there is going to be change that's for sure. for good or for bad, well that depends on your point of view. 

[Phi for All]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:06 PM, StringJunky said:

A glaring symptom of maintaining their autocratic aspirations is their persistent resistance to employment unionization. 

I think fascism and our new breed of strongman billionaire are overly compatible. Elon Musk is quite the little Mussolini, decrying woke stances (or any thoughts that threaten his lopsided status quo), making all kinds of ignorant COVID remarks in opposition to experts, bandwagoning with the ultra right to claim the entire left are pedophiles (while the evidence shows the opposite), ignoring public health over profits, threatening worker stock options if they unionize, and he shows disdain for women and minorities (I recall the misogynist crap he said about Elizabeth Warren when she said Musk should pay more in taxes). Jeff Bezos is even worse in some ways. 

Part of the systemic problems in the US are the efforts to keep us in as small a group as possible. We're supposed to shun anyone who isn't our ethnicity, kick our kids out of the house at 18 so they can learn how to do/buy EVERYTHING with no support, drive cars instead of use mass transit, and generally maximize the sheer amount of goods and services we have to pay for. Besides discouraging unions, our present system also discourages folks from organizing for anything that might bring us together or allow us to compare situations so we can figure out who the real enemies are. The two exceptions seem to be church groups and political groups (mostly right-leaning; the left has never been as organized), and those groups seem focused on stopping others from doing something rather than being focused on helping the most people. And, of course, US corporations still benefit from slavery, with the police rounding up millions of citizens and forcing them to work, which also helps keep the rest of us docile and tractable.

[StringJunky]

52 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm think fascism and our new breed of strongman billionaire are overly compatible. Elon Musk is quite the little Mussolini, decrying woke stances (or any thoughts that threaten his lopsided status quo), making all kinds of ignorant COVID remarks in opposition to experts, bandwagoning with the ultra right to claim the entire left are pedophiles (while the evidence shows the opposite), ignoring public health over profits, threatening worker stock options if they unionize, and he shows disdain for women and minorities (I recall the misogynist crap he said about Elizabeth Warren when she said Musk should pay more in taxes). Jeff Bezos is even worse in some ways. 

Part of the systemic problems in the US are the efforts to keep us in as small a group as possible. We're supposed to shun anyone who isn't our ethnicity, kick our kids out of the house at 18 so they can learn how to do/buy EVERYTHING with no support, drive cars instead of use mass transit, and generally maximize the sheer amount of goods and services we have to pay for. Besides discouraging unions, our present system also discourages folks from organizing for anything that might bring us together or allow us to compare situations so we can figure out who the real enemies are. The two exceptions seem to be church groups and political groups (mostly right-leaning; the left has never been as organized), and those groups seem focused on stopping others from doing something rather than being focused on helping the most people. And, of course, US corporations still benefit from slavery, with the police rounding up millions of citizens and forcing them to work, which also helps keep the rest of us docile and tractable.

There isn't anything I disagree with there.  Quite the shifty Pinnochio, Musk is. In Reuters today it turns out Tesla were pulling the same dodgy stunt as Volkswagen with their fiddling, except Tesla lied about the true range their cars could go and systematically made things very difficult for buyers to deal with them about it.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

The galling thing is they had a xylophone thing that call Tesla 'repair' operators used to celebrate with when they successfully fobbed someone off. I would call that kind of strategizing evil.

Edited July 27, 2023 by StringJunky

[Ken Fabian]

I think that for wealthy and powerful - industrialists etc - the nation's good usually pares down to what is good for the near term profitability of their businesses and their interactions with politicians are largely transactional, making deals towards that end. Not surprising, they tend to oppose regulation or taxation and anything that they perceive as negatively affecting them (but they aren't necessarily good at the bigger picture and longer term; giving them what they think they want can end up worse, even for them, than not giving them what they want). Which makes politicians and parties that espouse such things - Right leaning - usually more to their liking, but not always if the deals others offer are good enough.

The transactional nature of mixing politics and business has a "soft" corruption element (legal means of influence - advertising, PR, tankthink, lobbying, strategic donating, tactical lawfare, post politics payoffs) ultimately means influencing the making of the rules including ensuring the nature of legislation intended to limit corrupt influence doesn't limit their influence. I think corrupt influence and the inability or unwillingness within political parties to address it is one of the greatest impediments to improved governance - and we need governance that is capable of dealing with the profoundly serious challenges we collectively face.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Ken Fabian

[iNow]

On 7/26/2023 at 8:50 AM, AnimaAeterna said:

those in power tend to be greedy and not very inclined toward science.

Hasty generalizations are always wrong all the time and this never varies. Not ever. Not once. Never. 

I don’t accept your premise. I bet we also define science differently 

Edited July 28, 2023 by iNow

[dimreepr]

On 7/26/2023 at 2:50 PM, AnimaAeterna said:

It seems those in power tend to be greedy and not very inclined toward science. I often wonder if this is simply human nature. It seems that in order to attain a position of power you require certain inclinations and mindsets that tend to include a certain level of greed, among other things. 

I suspect It's far more complicated. Positions of power often involve stepping on eggshells and trying to please several parties (or at least not offending some parties). But I also feel a lot of it is related to greed and lack of empathy for other people. 

If this trend continues, and corruption along with it, where are we heading? How can we solve this problem? I feel like this topic would easily unravel into several subtopics but still I could discuss this for days. There's so much I'd like to understand about why things are this way, and what we can do about it.

It feels like, in our pursuit of knowledge and mastering nature, human nature is one of the things we understand and can adapt to the least. 

It seems to me that we're, finally, entering Marx's capitalist end game vision, so 'hopefully' we're not all doomed...

[Genady]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It seems to me that we're, finally, entering Marx's capitalist end game vision

What does make you think so?

[TheVat]

Agree with @Ken Fabian that good governance must contain the excesses, corruptions and narrow goals of a capitalist system.  Capitalism seems to trend towards predation and plutocracy, especially in countries like USA where more people get their information from advertising than from books and real journalism.

 

[dimreepr]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:24 PM, Genady said:

What does make you think so?

The ever widening wealth gap approaching critical mass, it's a little like Asimov's, Hari Seldon's psychohistory...

Quote

Seldon develops psychohistory, an algorithmic science that allows him to predict the future in probabilistic terms. On the basis of his psychohistory he is able to predict the eventual fall of the Galactic Empire and to develop a means to shorten the millennia of chaos to follow.

 

[Genady]

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The ever widening wealth gap approaching critical mass, it's a little like Asimov's, Hari Seldon's psychohistory...

 

Does the wealth gap between classes widen?

What is the critical mass?

How far is there to keep approaching it?

 

[dimreepr]

36 minutes ago, Genady said:

Does the wealth gap between classes widen?

That's a different question...

39 minutes ago, Genady said:

What is the critical mass?

Critical mass is reached when the shit creator's doesn't understand the value of the shit removers...

45 minutes ago, Genady said:

How far is there to keep approaching it?

It's more of an event horizon type deal...

[Genady]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That's a different question...

I've asked this question because of your mention of "Marx's capitalist end game vision" and because this is what Marx's theory is about.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Genady said:

I've asked this question because of your mention of "Marx's capitalist end game vision" and because this is what Marx's theory is about.

But class is a stabalising feature in society, capitalism breaks class, it's the revolution that sows its own seeds...

[Genady]

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

But class is a stabalising feature in society, capitalism breaks class, it's the revolution that sows its own seeds...

I wouldn't say that I fully understand what you mean, but I'm quite sure it is not in accord with the Marx's theory.

A connection to the Marx's theory was the only reason I've asked.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Genady

[dimreepr]

30 minutes ago, Genady said:

but I'm quite sure it is not in accord with the Marx's theory.

Please explain...