Andrew William Henderson Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 2 hours ago, swansont said: Nothing about this has been about "dissimilar natural process producing something the same" You claimed that "Nothing in nature is observered (sic) to happen again or twice ...have a look yourselves! " You said nothing about processes or results. But you keep returning to a particular, narrowly-defined example that doesn't happen, where nobody is surprised that it doesn't happen, or rarely happens. This is known as moving the goalposts, and it's a dishonest debating tactic. ... I remember someone I knew long ago that argued that evolution is false because a dog never gave birth to a cat. He thought that was a persuasive argument, when in fact it just showed how little he understood about evolution. I see a similar phenomenon happening here. Yes I did ...that's the essence of the argument ...you can not produce either so it doesn't matter if you dont understand what are the phenomena then ....what have I have said that shows a lack of knowledge about chemistry evoulution or how science establishs current certaintys ....you haven't produced one example of anything happening the same twice or a dissimilar chemical reaction producing another same.. ....its not the goal posts shifting it's just theres two goals you need to get threw at either end of the argument ....and have made no suggestion why or how another chemical reaction has a requirement to resemble life or function that can be construed as life ...anything you place on it would be a biological trait .....like the example of eyes we call them eyes because we assume they are doing the same job ..when in fact they are just seperate evolved organs that exploit deviations of light that help interpretate the enviroment ...a bat uses the the area of the brain we use to taste to interpretate its returning echo location you could say it tastes sound threw its ears ..a octopus eye isnt a human eye or a blue bottles ...eyes (organs ) have happened twice but human or octopus eyes haven't..eyes haven't happened twice ....even the octopus can not produce the exact same eye ..which octopus and which eye would be the comparison.... 12 minutes ago, zapatos said: That's kind of a wide open question. Which beliefs and assumptions of mine would you like to discuss? You believe in the possibilty of extraterrestrial lifeforms when there is very little scientific evidence to its suggestion ...a hypothesis on the exsitence of faireys would hold more scientific basis of there suggested and possible exsitence.. Faireys where actually a small hairless primate that like flying squirrel developed a mebrane of skin that enabled them to glide from tree to tree there rareitey and eventual extinction before early zoology and its path into myth and folklore placed it into the realm of magic .....load of rubbish I KNOW but more scientifically plausible that ETL ... -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 18 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: You believe in the possibilty of extraterrestrial lifeforms when there is very little scientific evidence to its suggestion Life exist in the universe, as I'm sure you'll agree. That tells me life is possible. Not really a big stretch of the imagination. Similarly stalagmites exist on Earth and while I have no evidence of them anywhere else in the universe, I'm convinced it is possible stalagmites exist elsewhere. I'm not sure why that seems so outlandish to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 Just now, zapatos said: Life exist in the universe, as I'm sure you'll agree. That tells me life is possible. Not really a big stretch of the imagination. Similarly stalagmites exist on Earth and while I have no evidence of them anywhere else in the universe, I'm convinced it is possible stalagmites exist elsewhere. I'm not sure why that seems so outlandish to you. Copper exsits in the universe but it can not be made from another process .. stalagmites are formed by a lot less causation and the forces that make them are a constant pressure as they still exsit and are been made as we speak ..but you would agree that there is no two exact stalagmites...they dont happen twice ..and falling rocks in a river can not make one ..a stalagmite has only happened as much as a planet or a river or another human..they are just repeated processes of a process that can not happen again and what they do produce is never an exact of the last the current or the next Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: .but you would agree that there is no two exact stalagmites... Sure. Does that mean both are not stalagmites? I'm not sure why that matters. I didn't say an exact replica of a stalagmite can exist elsewhere, I only said a stalagmite can exist elsewhere. Is you overall position simply that an exact set of humans do not exist elsewhere in the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 12 minutes ago, zapatos said: Sure. Does that mean both are not stalagmites? I'm not sure why that matters. I didn't say an exact replica of a stalagmite can exist elsewhere, I only said a stalagmite can exist elsewhere. Is you overall position simply that an exact set of humans do not exist elsewhere in the Yeah but it's just a stalagmite as we are just humans but none are the same and they can not exsit again from other means .no two same humans can exsit that's an observed certainty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Andrew William Henderson said: It's easy....why would we expect life to happen on another planet again ..when nothing else in nature is observed to ...become twice ...happen again ...appear the same from different chemicals and causations ...its not hog wash it's a diamond bullet of reality to the forehead you can not answer it despite your training....not once have you asked how I draw my conclusions but just threw the same answered questions back at me ...or another question because you couldn't dismiss my point and if you seriously believe the possibilty of extraterrestrial life your going to need more than the hog wash of probability and possibilty .... If you could, for once, make a single coherent point, I might be able to respond to it. As it is, I feel I am trying to have a conversation with a barking dog. All you do veer around all over the place, not even completing your sentences half the time, and repeating this demonstrably false assertion that nothing in nature is observed to "......become" twice (I assume you mean "happen" or "occur"). Several people, including me, have pointed out to you, quite politely, that this is obviously wrong, yet you continue to repeat it as if nobody had replied at all. My patience is now exhausted. There is no point trying to have a conversation with someone who doesn't listen and can't string two thoughts together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Andrew William Henderson said: Yes I did ...that's the essence of the argument ...you can not produce either so it doesn't matter if you dont understand what are the phenomena then I can’t produce something when something is as ill-defined as your parameters are 1 hour ago, Andrew William Henderson said: ....what have I have said that shows a lack of knowledge about chemistry evoulution or how science establishs current certaintys ....you haven't produced one example of anything happening the same twice or a dissimilar chemical reaction producing another same. 1. You only asked for this after asking for something else 2. If that’s what you want: there are multiple chemical reaction that will produce e.g. H2O - there is the familiar combustion of H2 and O2, but this will happen with hydrocarbons as well. CH3—COO—H + C2H5—OH → CH3-COO—C2H5 + H2O CH4 + 2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O Multiple dissimilar reactions producing the same common product <awaiting a moving of the goalposts in 3…2…1…> 1 hour ago, Andrew William Henderson said: but you would agree that there is no two exact stalagmites... Which is a narrow requirement for no legitimate reason. Why must stalagmites be identical? What scientific principle is at stake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 17 minutes ago, exchemist said: If you could, for once, make a single coherent point, I might be able to respond to it. As it is, I feel I am trying to have a conversation with a barking dog. All you do veer around all over the place, not even completing your sentences half the time, and repeating this demonstrably false assertion that nothing in nature is observed to "......become" twice (I assume you mean "happen" or "occur"). Several people, including me, have pointed out to you, quite politely, that this is obviously wrong, yet you continue to repeat it as if nobody had replied at all. My patience is now exhausted. There is no point trying to have a conversation with someone who doesn't listen and can't string two thoughts together. You sound defeated....your the one claiming nothing of substance ..all your saying is I'm wrong because I am ....with no substance to counter anything I've said it's you that's changing goalposts with irrelevant replys and further questions when I've answered them with the weight of scientific fact ..if you're tired dont reply it is not required you understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: You sound defeated....your the one claiming nothing of substance ..all your saying is I'm wrong because I am ....with no substance to counter anything I've said it's you that's changing goalposts with irrelevant replys and further questions when I've answered them with the weight of scientific fact ..if you're tired dont reply it is not required you understand Woof woof. Have a nice day. Edited June 29, 2021 by exchemist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 5 minutes ago, swansont said: I can’t produce something when something is as ill-defined as your parameters are 1. You only asked for this after asking for something else 2. If that’s what you want: there are multiple chemical reaction that will produce e.g. H2O - there is the familiar combustion of H2 and O2, but this will happen with hydrocarbons as well. CH3—COO—H + C2H5—OH → CH3-COO—C2H5 + H2O CH4 + 2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O Multiple dissimilar reactions producing the same common product <awaiting a moving of the goalposts in 3…2…1…> Which is a narrow requirement for no legitimate reason. Why must stalagmites be identical? What scientific principle is at stake? H2o is not H20......is it ? the posts haven't moved your just not hitting the ball Just now, Andrew William Henderson said: H2o is not H20......is it ? the posts haven't moved your just not hitting the ball Can you distinguish one from another ...???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 15 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: H2o is not H20......is it ? the posts haven't moved your just not hitting the ball Can you distinguish one from another ...???? AYFKM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Andrew William Henderson said: .no two same humans can exsit that's an observed certainty Okay. So we assume that is true. What does that prove to you? What is the point you are making with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Andrew William Henderson said: H2o is not H20......is it ? ! Moderator Note Yes, water is water. Please retract your claim that "you haven't produced one example of anything happening the same twice or a dissimilar chemical reaction producing another same." It's the intellectually honest thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Fabian Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 (edited) All individual humans are different... therefore we don't have an absolutely precise definition of a human there is no such thing as a group of humans - just one and all the rest are flawed imitations... No, this discussion looks like a problem with words and their definitions - and the aspects shared are the unifying characteristics that make "human"; the differences between individuals (even identical twins) don't negate what is shared. The potential for abiogenesis in the universe isn't going to go away with a redefinition of what "abiogenesis" means. Edited June 29, 2021 by Ken Fabian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Andrew William Henderson said: You believe in the possibilty of extraterrestrial lifeforms when there is very little scientific evidence to its suggestion ...a hypothesis on the exsitence of faireys would hold more scientific basis of there suggested and possible exsitence.. No that's just silly. While we do not as yet have direct or extraordinary evidence of any extraterrestrial life, the known facts that [1] the universe is "near infinite" in extent, [2] The universe is "near infinite" in content, [3] The stuff of life and the chemicals that make up life on Earth, are spread throughout the universe, wherever we have looked. The probability of life of some sort arising elsewhere is valid. Fairies on the other hand are nothing more then a mythical unscientific concept for children. Edited June 29, 2021 by beecee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 7 hours ago, swansont said: I can’t produce something when something is as ill-defined as your parameters are 1. You only asked for this after asking for something else 2. If that’s what you want: there are multiple chemical reaction that will produce e.g. H2O - there is the familiar combustion of H2 and O2, but this will happen with hydrocarbons as well. CH3—COO—H + C2H5—OH → CH3-COO—C2H5 + H2O CH4 + 2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O Multiple dissimilar reactions producing the same common product <awaiting a moving of the goalposts in 3…2…1…> Which is a narrow requirement for no legitimate reason. Why must stalagmites be identical? What scientific principle is at stake? Nothing in nature happens the same again ....its basic . They are not my parameters they are natures Just now, Andrew William Henderson said: Nothing in nature happens the same again ....its basic . They are not my parameters they are natures H20 is not H2o .....is it ! Are they distinguishable 13 hours ago, Phi for All said: ! Moderator Note You need to address the questions that have been posed to you by other members, rather than continuing to quote yourself and repeat yourself over and over. Otherwise you are soapboxing, and that's not allowed in a discussion here. Especially address the non-mainstream aspects of your ideas, and support them with some kind of evidence, or be more rigorous in your reasoning. I've addressed the questions .. I haven't moved the goalposts ...the point still stands .....I will word it so there is problems with semantics.. Can show an example in nature where a process produces the same thing again ... Same = exact....similar is not exact that's why it has a different name from same ...you can look yourself if you dont believe me but I can assure you there isnt ...there is theorys that explain why this is so ..entropy and the Lorenz effect so with this established scientific fact why would biology happen again ? Happening again is producing the the same thing twice ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartazion Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 23 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: Nothing in nature happens the same again ....its basic . They are not my parameters they are natures H20 is not H2o .....is it ! Are they distinguishable Nothing happens the same. However, the molecule H₂O are all identical ... as two drops of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 7 hours ago, zapatos said: Okay. So we assume that is true. What does that prove to you? What is the point you are making with that? If nature can produce the same thing twice why would we expect the exsitence of extraterrestrial lifeforms ..if it's not the same prebiotic materials it can not become Abiogenesis and Abiogenesis can only be Abiogenesis if it produces biology 4 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: If nature can not produce the same thing twice why would we expect the exsitence of extraterrestrial lifeforms ..if it's not the same prebiotic materials it can not become Abiogenesis and Abiogenesis can only be Abiogenesis if it produces biology .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartazion Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 minute ago, Andrew William Henderson said: If nature can produce the same thing twice why would we expect the exsitence of extraterrestrial lifeforms The existence of extraterrestrial life forms may all be different. But that does not prevent it from being extraterrestrial life 6 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: ..if it's not the same prebiotic materials it can not become Abiogenesis and Abiogenesis can only be Abiogenesis if it produces biology If they are not the same prebiotic materials, they can also be extraterrestrial life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 8 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: If nature can produce the same thing twice why would we expect the exsitence of extraterrestrial lifeforms Do you know what a nonsequiter is? Given the above, I’m assuming No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 10 minutes ago, Kartazion said: Nothing happens the same. However, the molecule H₂O are all identical ... as two drops of water. Are they distinguishable by Inspection....two drops of water are the same as two mountains .. everest and K2 2 minutes ago, Kartazion said: The existence of extraterrestrial life forms may all be different. But that does not prevent it from being extraterrestrial life If they are not the same prebiotic materials, they can also be extraterrestrial life. Life = biology if can only be life if its biology ...surley ! What non biolgical traits would you place on a non biological lifeform to define it as life ....a hairy arse 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartazion Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: Life = biology if can only be life if its biology ...surley ! What non biolgical traits would you place on a non biological lifeform to define it as life ....a hairy arse 🙂 If you eliminated the life process from the universe, then there would be no life indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 Just now, Kartazion said: If you eliminated the life process from the universe, then there would be no life indeed. What's the life process ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartazion Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: What's the life process ...? Abiogenesis? 18 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: Are they distinguishable by Inspection No. 18 minutes ago, Andrew William Henderson said: two drops of water are the same as two mountains .. everest and K2 Of course no. Two drops of water was an expression. Sorry about that. But a hydrogen atom will be the same with all hydrogen atoms. Each isotope being the same of each of them. Edited June 30, 2021 by Kartazion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew William Henderson Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 9 minutes ago, Kartazion said: Abiogenesis? No. Of course no. Two drops of water was an expression. Sorry about that. But a hydrogen atom will be the same with all hydrogen atoms. Each isotope being the same of each of them. At what point in time will all the hydrogen atoms be identical ...,? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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