interested

Is it possible to distort space?

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Posted (edited)

Due to a thread on the Abercrombie drive I have another question :( Also involved was this link on zero point energy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

If gravity is caused by the absorption of virtual particles/gravitons by mass (giving the appearance of stretched space), is there a way of generating virtual particles at one side of an object whilst allowing or increasing absorption on the other, creating a gravitational gradient as in warp drive, or putting it another way, rather than having a uniform stretching of space in all directions round an object due to gravity, create a distortion in the stretching of space.

Is there any way of absorbing virtual particles or stretching space in the direction you want to go. Briefly the Casimir effect at the quantum level blocks quantum fluctuations in the vacuum between the plates and the plates are forced towards each other via quantum fluctuations occupying the full spectrum of frequencies. Can these quantum fluctuations be blocked or enhanced in any other way? Is it possible to distort space either electrically or magnetically in any way creating more or destroying quantum fluctuations/virtual gravitons.

Would generating UHF waves create or destroy virtual particles, would a very short wavelength radio signal create the casimir effect between the waves and reduce the quantum fluctuations in the direction of the radio waves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

 

Edited by interested
grammar spelling

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Nasa are not investigating warp drive https://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html only ion drives.

Can radio waves destroy or absorb virtual particles?

Could the Casimir effect be repeated between wave troughs from a radio signal in the terra hertz range, rather than between two metal plates.

Could a large curved surface producing multiple out of phase radio waves in the terra hertz range, create a greater response.

 

 

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On 11/03/2018 at 2:59 PM, interested said:

If gravity is caused by the absorption of virtual particles/gravitons by mass (giving the appearance of stretched space), is there a way of generating virtual particles at one side of an object whilst allowing or increasing absorption on the other, creating a gravitational gradient as in warp drive, or putting it another way, rather than having a uniform stretching of space in all directions round an object due to gravity, create a distortion in the stretching of space.

Basically, what you are asking seems to be "is there any way of manipulating gravity (apart from the existence of mass or energy)?"

It doesn't really make any difference whether you describe gravity in terms of gravitons (which we can't currently) or space-time geometry or Newtonian forces: we don't know any way to manipulate it.

Would a theory of quantum gravity (i.e. a theory including gravitons) change that? Maybe. Maybe not. Any other answer is a complete guess.

 

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11 hours ago, Strange said:

Basically, what you are asking seems to be "is there any way of manipulating gravity (apart from the existence of mass or energy)?"

It doesn't really make any difference whether you describe gravity in terms of gravitons (which we can't currently) or space-time geometry or Newtonian forces: we don't know any way to manipulate it.

Would a theory of quantum gravity (i.e. a theory including gravitons) change that? Maybe. Maybe not. Any other answer is a complete guess.

 

Basically you are correct, except I was thinking along the lines of manipulating space to create a gravitational distortion or some kind of pressure by trying to manipulate something like the Casimir effect. I also mused over various ideas of quantum teleportation of space but kicked them into touch.

If we manipulate space or gravity it would be interesting, apart from the Albercrombie drive no one seems to be thinking about it, or even remotely interested in speculating and as Swansont said the speculations forum is for new theories not questions. So I guess the thread is dead via lack of of interest, but thanks for the reply anyway. I had a few more amusing lines of thought but will keep them to myself.

 

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I looked up albercrombie drive and found a utube on alcubierre drive. Is this what you meant?  The shawyer EM idea, which has been looked at by eagleworks uses microwaves to produce a tiny drive, according to what I have seen on utube , but doesn't not seem to distort space, and is more of an ion type drive with the waves themselves penetrating the barrier and delivering the thrust. I am interested in the idea of path alterations of virtual particles as a way of simulating gravitational effects by a manipulation of the  natural architecture of the geometric paths of of the appearance/annialation of said particles. It does seem that a major question as regards to this is, do VPs actually make up space, or mere carriers "floating" in a more fundamental space-time structure...

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13 minutes ago, hoola said:

It does seem that a major question as regards to this is, do VPs actually make up space, or mere carriers "floating" in a more fundamental space-time structure...

The question is one of definitions and which theory you are talking about.

In GR, for example, space-time is just a set of coordinates (distances between things and events). So space is just geometry.

In quantum theory, space is the background in which things like virtual particles exist - because "empty" space has a non-zero energy level.

It is possible, even likely, that in a future theory that combines quantum theory and gravity, space and time will not be fundamental properties but will emerge from some lower-level structure. 

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7 hours ago, hoola said:

do VPs actually make up space, or mere carriers "floating" in a more fundamental space-time structure.

exactly, that is why I was pondering the idea of trying to recreate the casimir effect using radio waves instead of metal plates.

7 hours ago, Strange said:

It is possible, even likely, that in a future theory that combines quantum theory and gravity, space and time will not be fundamental properties but will emerge from some lower-level structure. 

yes

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2 hours ago, interested said:

exactly, that is why I was pondering the idea of trying to recreate the casimir effect using radio waves instead of metal plates.

Can you derive the expression for the Casimir force?

 

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Posted (edited)

 from one of Suskind's lectures,  if I am correct in my understanding,   he has speculated that gravity is a result of a high "density of entanglement" and that the resultant entanglement is indeed gravitation itself and not a model of the effect. Verlinde has stated that gravitation is not fundamental, but is emergent from a deeper order.  Given these two concepts, and adding in the entanglement of virtual particles appearing briefly everywhere all the time, is this not an avenue into thinking of the architechure of the orbital paths of these particles as they appear and annialate, and distortions of this natural path into an elongation in a geometric sense, causing the path duration to increase, and equivalently, Suskind's "density of the entanglement" of said particles to increase, thus providing Verlinde's "emergent feature" ?

Edited by hoola

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8 hours ago, swansont said:

Can you derive the expression for the Casimir force?

I posted this earlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect a derivation and explanation is included.

3 hours ago, hoola said:

Suskind's "density of the entanglement" of said particles to increase, thus providing Verlinde's "emergent feature" ?

Are you thinking possible extra spacial dimensions could be involved?

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11 hours ago, interested said:

that is why I was pondering the idea of trying to recreate the casimir effect using radio waves instead of metal plates.

How do you propose to produce the boundary conditions created by two conducting metal plates by using radio waves (which are neither static nor conducting)

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1 hour ago, Strange said:

How do you propose to produce the boundary conditions created by two conducting metal plates by using radio waves (which are neither static nor conducting)

Speculating, by the use of intense short wavelength radio waves, the quantum fluctuations might be restricted to wavelengths similar to the wavelength of the radio waves or the gap in the casimir plates, but over a much wider area.

Amusingly with enough power you might get slightly heated and the air may become ionized and glow a little as some electrons recombine, just like a UFO :) . I understand there is a weapon developed by the military for crowd control that uses 3mm wavelength radio waves to make peoples skin feel like it is burning. :(

 

  

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21 minutes ago, interested said:

Speculating, by the use of intense short wavelength radio waves, the quantum fluctuations might be restricted to wavelengths similar to the wavelength of the radio waves or the gap in the casimir plates, but over a much wider area.

The wavelength of radio waves goes down to about 1mm. I think you need much, much smaller spacing to measure the Casimir effect, which is very small and decreases with the 4th power of distance.

And there is no reason to think that radio waves would do what you think because electromagnetic waves do not interact.

This is more guesswork than scientific speculation.

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3 hours ago, interested said:

I posted this earlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect a derivation and explanation is included.

That's not what I asked. Can YOU derive it?

 

But if you look at the derivation in the link, the very first paragraph says what I stated earlier about boundary conditions. There is no mention of gravity, so why would gravity be affected?

2 hours ago, interested said:

Speculating, by the use of intense short wavelength radio waves, the quantum fluctuations might be restricted to wavelengths similar to the wavelength of the radio waves or the gap in the casimir plates, but over a much wider area.

Tha Casimir force is measured for plate separations much shorter than a mm. These are not radio waves.

But why would the fluctuations be restricted?  How would these photons interact with each other to do this?

This is not speculating. This is an uninformed WAG.

 

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On 11/03/2018 at 2:59 PM, interested said:

Due to a thread on the Abercrombie drive

Abercrombie is an American manufacturer of casual wear. :)

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, interested said:

WAG? Wifes and girl friends

Wild Assed Guess...  one is talking out of ones bottom. :) 

Edited by StringJunky

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7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Wild Assed Guess...  one is talking out of ones bottom. :) 

I new it would be something simple :) 

 

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8 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Wild Assed Guess...  one is talking out of ones bottom. :) 

I prefer "Argumentum ad anus extractus"

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Posted (edited)
On 3/14/2018 at 10:53 AM, swansont said:

But if you look at the derivation in the link, the very first paragraph says what I stated earlier about boundary conditions. There is no mention of gravity, so why would gravity be affected?

It is clear that the casimir effect exists between the plates, this effect must also exist in materials between atoms. I read some where on this forum that space does not exist without quantum fluctuations. So restricting said quantum fluctuations might cause space to shrink also. Gravity is caused by the stretching of space due to mass, it just kind of followed. And then I remembered this I saw posted earlier, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam and found this and tons of other stuff https://www.space.com/29629-quantum-foam-bubbly-universe-search.html.

Viewing the absorption of quantum foam by mass as gravity and the none absorption of quantum foam as dark energy, is an interesting concept. The idea of being able to suppress it in any way or increase via the use of radio waves/ fluctuating magnetic fields etc was to me intriguing.

14 minutes ago, koti said:

I prefer "Argumentum ad anus extractus"

Its is more commonly known as Bull Shit abbreviated to BS to be polite :) 

 

Edited by interested

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5 minutes ago, interested said:

It is clear that the casimir effect exists between the plates, this effect must also exist in materials between atoms. I read some where on this forum that space does not exist without quantum fluctuations. So restricting said quantum fluctuations might cause space to shrink also. Gravity is caused by the stretching of space due to mass, it just kind of followed.

 

Its is more commonly known as Bull Shit abbreviated to BS to be polite :) 

 

AFAIK the casimir effect is all around the plates, it's the difference in pressures between the plates - which is less in between - vs around them. As you decrease the distance, the longer wavelengths won't fit which creates a pressure deficit relative to the outside.

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29 minutes ago, interested said:

It is clear that the casimir effect exists between the plates, this effect must also exist in materials between atoms. I read some where on this forum that space does not exist without quantum fluctuations. So restricting said quantum fluctuations might cause space to shrink also. Gravity is caused by the stretching of space due to mass, it just kind of followed. And then I remembered this I saw posted earlier, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam and found this and tons of other stuff

In other words ... WAG

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1 minute ago, Strange said:

In other words ... WAG

So you think the work of Physicists looking into Quantum Foam and other theories to try and unify quantum theory and relativity is WAG or BS or something in Latin. I guess your just being Strange and not Interested :) 

In string theory space has a membrane that each end of a strings is connected to, these little strings way down at the quantum level represent quantum foam, or quantum fluctuations they are all talking about the same thing just describing it differently. Ifs buts and maybes. If space contracts when quantum fluctuations or virtual photons are restricted as MIGHT be happening in the Casimir effect and between Atoms then it MIGHT cause the stretching of space. 

The big question is can these quantum fluctuations be restricted or affected in anyway over a large area. Clearly if a single photon travels through the quantum foam, it may smooth it, leaving a gravitational effect that might draw photons together etc. Using radio waves or magnetic fields, virtual photons or distortions in space MIGHT actually momentarily smooth it and cause it to contract. etc   

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6 minutes ago, interested said:

So you think the work of Physicists looking into Quantum Foam and other theories to try and unify quantum theory and relativity is WAG or BS or something in Latin.

No. Obviously not.

But you grabbing a few buzzwords from unrelated work and sticking them together without any understanding ...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, interested said:

So you think the work of Physicists looking into Quantum Foam and other theories to try and unify quantum theory and relativity is WAG or BS or something in Latin. I guess your just being Strange and not Interested :) 

In string theory space has a membrane that each end of a strings is connected to, these little strings way down at the quantum level represent quantum foam, or quantum fluctuations they are all talking about the same thing just describing it differently. Ifs buts and maybes. If space contracts when quantum fluctuations or virtual photons are restricted as MIGHT be happening in the Casimir effect and between Atoms then it MIGHT cause the stretching of space. 

The big question is can these quantum fluctuations be restricted or affected in anyway over a large area. Clearly if a single photon travels through the quantum foam, it may smooth it, leaving a gravitational effect that might draw photons together etc. Using radio waves or magnetic fields, virtual photons or distortions in space MIGHT actually momentarily smooth it and cause it to contract. etc   

Interested: If we are able to survive any  potential cosmological mishap, and our own Earthly follies, say to possibly 100,000 years or more hence, in my opinion the possibility exists that we "may" be advanced enough to modify spacetime to our demands, similar to the alcubierre warp drive or similar: But just as our stone age ancestors would see a jumbo jet as magic, such possible technology from the future, is at this time also magic and totally out of our league. The difficulties though in achieving such technology, also apparently means discovering some type of exotic energy and/or matter. No scientist/cosmologist expects anyone to find any such stuff anytime soon, if it at all exists. And of course if wormholes exist at all! 

The only thing really in its favour other then "over the top optimism" [which I have been told I have] is that entities such as wormholes and ERB's are solutions of GR, which has a pretty good track record. What I'm trying to say is that pessimism must be tempered with realism. We do know a lot more about GR today then when Einstein first gave it to us in 1916, and part of that is that even GR has limitations, particularly at the quantum/Planck level.

The same applies of course to string theory and its derivitives: Mathematically beautiful they have been described, but as yet we are just not smart enough to invent technology to observe at such quantum/Planck levels and lower, and further no idea how we would/could implement any of the predictions or properties at such levels.

I don't believe Strange is saying its all bullshit, rather that at this time, it is like magic to us and we have as yet no idea how to achieve any thing of that sort, if it is at all achievable, or even allowable.

The same applies to time travel. 

https://plus.maths.org/content/time-travel-allowed

Quote

 

In brief: The laws of physics allow members of an exceedingly advanced civilisation to travel forward in time as fast as they might wish. Backward time travel is another matter; we do not know whether it is allowed by the laws of physics, and the answer is likely controlled by a set of physical laws that we do not yet understand at all well: the laws of quantum gravity. In order for humans to travel forward in time very rapidly, or backward (if allowed at all), we would need technology far far beyond anything we are capable of today.

more at link....

 

I would love to believe that all this can be achieved by human kind at some time, and I would further love to believe that it can be achievable in my own time, before I kick the bucket. It certainly won't on the latter, and actually we have no idea as to the former.

Edited by beecee

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