Function Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Also, I want to point out something interesting...Most of these arguments are focused on the human's perspective - whether the human is right or wrong. This reflects the inherent self-centeredd nature of the human species. Forgive us for being human. I'm not convinced a lion thinks about those poor human beings when he tears one apart. I'm sick of this "humans are not natural" nonsense. Of course we are natural. We are as natural as any other living animal. If you shot the bird for fun or for food the bird will hate you the same either way... I hope if I get shot and get to die from that shot, I won't think anything anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Forgive us for being human. I'm not convinced a lion thinks about those poor human beings when he tears one apart. I'm sick of this "humans are not natural" nonsense. Of course we are natural. We are as natural as any other living animal. I hope if I get shot and get to die from that shot, I won't think anything anymore. When did I say humans are not natural? My whole point is that humans are nothing but savage primate animals with very little of any genuine logical morality. Yeah the bird dies instantly and won't be thinking anymore. That is also my whole point. Shooting a bird (for fun) that dies instantly is much less evil than locking it in a cage for food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Dude...you are MISSING the entire point I am making. You keep making comments about Me and You... No I'm not, your entire argument ignores the fact that you can't possible know the animals perspective (unless some shoots you), so it remains an excuse for you to indulge yourself. This has NOTHING to do with me or you... This has nothing to do with me because I have my reason; and everything to do with you, because you don't have your excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 (edited) No I'm not, your entire argument ignores the fact that you can't possible know the animals perspective (unless some shoots you), so it remains an excuse for you to indulge yourself. This has nothing to do with me because I have my reason; and everything to do with you, because you don't have your excuse. Ok...this is fading into ridiculousness as I expected. Let me bring you the current facts. You can't verify sentience or consciousness in ANYONE but yourself. Morality is based on 2. ASSUMED assumptions, 1. that people are not pzombies, and 2. They have feeling responses similar to yours. Thus, stabbing people is immoral, because it is assumed 1. their family is not pzombies, and 2. the person feels the pain of injury thus ANIMAL MORALITY is also based on the assumption that 1. animals are not pzombies, and have some form of awareness 2. They have feeling responses similar to humans. NEITHER can be proven...it can NOT be proven that Joe is not a pzombie, it can NOT be proven that Joe feels the pain of injury. Neither can it be proven that animals are not pzombies or feel the pain of injury. So we err on the safe side, assuming that humans and animals are probably not pzombies, so we should err on the side of caution in dealing with them, and thus the foundations of moral logic begin. Thus, whether or not something is right or wrong depends on whether or not the victim and their familys would incur damages. Right and wrong is NOT determined by whether or not the perpetrator feels good about themselves afterwards. If someone butchers 10 people for no reason, just to make themselves feel good, their feeling is irrelevant because we assume the damages to the victim outweight the feeling good of the butcher. Just like if someone has a choice to shoot a cow for no reason, but keeps 10 cows in cages for food, we ask the VICTIM which would they rather...NOT the perpetrator...We say...hmm, which made the cow worse off, being in a cage or killed quickly, the perpetrators perspective is irrelevant. Thus if a Serial Killer goes around killing humans for sport, and he shoots his victims in the head, but Cannibal starves his victims for years in terrible conditions before killing them and eating them, we say Serial Killer is less evil than Cannibal. Edited April 15, 2017 by quickquestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 You can't verify sentience or consciousness in ANYONE but yourself. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Why not? Because its fundamentally impossible at this current stage of technology and I doubt it ever will be possible even after an extreme advance in technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Because its fundamentally impossible at this current stage of technology and I doubt it ever will be possible even after an extreme advance in technology. What about the mirror test of sentience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 You seemed like the one programmed not me. You seem to think that keeping someone alive is inherently good for some reason. Why is keeping someone alive inherently good? If I am starving someone in my basement, and they are saying "Kill me, kill me", how does that make it good if I keep them alive. Just like how does it make it good to keep millions of cows in cages against their will and breed them into miserable low quality lives. Also, the majority of animals in meat are not raised in humane farms, most are factory farms and the amount of pleasant lives are very few. Also, I am not "programmed" to feel a certain way about liberals...I had to live with liberals and live in a town with liberals deal with their crap on a daily basis. I would not want to live in a society ran by liberals, Bernie Sanders or any other politician...I am a free-spirit and modern liberals tend to be authoritarian and totalitarian...Sanders is more democrat than liberal anyway. Now, the actual practical interpretation of liberal is not what modern liberals are...an actual dictionary definition of a liberal is just someone who is open minded, deep thinkers to change traditional values....Modern liberals want to be thought and word police, tend to be closeminded and shallow philosophers with generic status-quo morality and wish to regulate and punish everything. Same with modern fake-anarchists like on Anarchist memes. Modern liberals are basically fake liberals. I apologize for my rudeness, but your arguments are so specious and firmly rooted in emotion that you ignore any critical reasoning, and thus I find my interest in this discussion has fled. Good luck, or whatever helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 I apologize for my rudeness, but your arguments are so specious and firmly rooted in emotion that you ignore any critical reasoning, and thus I find my interest in this discussion has fled. Good luck, or whatever helps. If you want to talk about critical reasoning, you should examine the fact that I took the time to write several paragraphs of response to you, and all you can close it with is a pithy remark filled with irrelevance. What about the mirror test of sentience? It only heightens assumptions, proves nothing. A clone is no guarantee of sentience, nor a gauranteed path of reincarnation. -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Can't believe you actually plussed one that. It's an emotional rant and completely logically hysterical. It's the equivalent of saying "Daddy I want a pony." dimreepr's comment is logical, straight to the point and very accurate. I'd plus it again if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 dimreepr's comment is logical, straight to the point and very accurate. I'd plus it again if I could. Wow, what a complete load of bollox; killing for fun usually means a dickhead wannabe who wants to control the world, with a very limp dick; killing for food is a person trying to live. You must be joking me. You call that logical, straight to the point and accurate? You can't be serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 I choose my medicines wisely. I don't fully forsake anything until I have given it careful review. I have largely had adverse affects to anti-biotics so that is out the window. But if I am having a dark depths of depression, I will take my anti-depressions as a quick fix. If I broke a bone or something, I will use synthetic anesthesia to ease the pain over herbal remedies any day. I just don't make it the norm, just usually a "last resort, commanders, we have to switch to Plan X" kind of thing. Like if I have a migraine, and the tea doesn't do anything, I may take a advil or something. But there are often unexplored options due to certain social constraints and taboos, for instance, Massage is made socially taboo and difficult to obtain, so I take advil instead, when massage would often be the healthier option. Perhaps, if you took your anti depressants as prescribed, it would work better? Rather then just taking them when you want a quick fix? My argument is from the animal's perspective - whether or not killing them is right or wrong for the animal. An animal does not care if you shoot him or for fun or shoot him for food....he despises you regardless. If I were say a gazelle, and there was this lion about to kill me, I'd be pretty pissed off if he was doing it to show off to his buddies rather then actually having to kill me to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 (edited) Perhaps, if you took your anti depressants as prescribed, it would work better? Rather then just taking them when you want a quick fix? Didn't mean to negative 1 your post, my mouse glitched. Anyway, I am sick of being a guinea pig for corrupt politicians and corporate interests. I used to take the pills everyday but they didn't help. And in the future I don't wish to take meds everyday so doctors can use me to test their experimental medications. Edited April 15, 2017 by quickquestion -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Didn't mean to negative 1 your post, my mouse glitched. Anyway, I am sick of being a guinea pig for corrupt politicians and corporate interests. I used to take the pills everyday but they didn't help. And in the future I don't wish to take meds everyday so doctors can use me to test their experimental medications. Most of them aren't experimental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Most of them aren't experimental. Depends on your definition. I view 10 years as an experiment in progress. Also, the attitude of many doctors is to scoff at any side effects I mention to them, as if they have the unshakeable attitude that their meds are fully safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Depends on your definition. I view 10 years as an experiment in progress. Also, the attitude of many doctors is to scoff at any side effects I mention to them, as if they have the unshakeable attitude that their meds are fully safe. Find better doctors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Find better doctors. Better doctors takes better money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Also, I want to point out something interesting...Most of these arguments are focused on the human's perspective - whether the human is right or wrong. This reflects the inherent self-centeredd nature of the human species. I'm afraid you are focused on humans.How can the animal despise humans? You also talk about good and evil like they are real and absolute. Citation needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 If I were say a gazelle, and there was this lion about to kill me, I'd be pretty pissed off if he was doing it to show off to his buddies rather then actually having to kill me to survive. I'd always be pissed. Someone's trying to kill you, does it matter why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 You would be a gazelle, so you wouldn't know anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 I'm afraid you are focused on humans. How can the animal despise humans? You also talk about good and evil like they are real and absolute. Citation needed. To paraphrase Dr Who ' no-one is evil, they're just hungry, evil depends on which side of the cutlery you're on.' You must be joking me. You call that logical, straight to the point and accurate? You can't be serious. Please explain why he's wrong, rather than try yet another logical fallacy; I'm not asking you to jump in with both feet, just dip your toe and answer a question, I don't care which one, anything you like, even if it's only your age. You would be a gazelle, so you wouldn't know anyway. LOL +1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 (edited) To paraphrase Dr Who ' no-one is evil, they're just hungry, evil depends on which side of the cutlery you're on.' Please explain why he's wrong, rather than try yet another logical fallacy; I'm not asking you to jump in with both feet, just dip your toe and answer a question, I don't care which one, anything you like, even if it's only your age. LOL +1 Do I really have to explain why he's wrong? He literally said that people who kill animals for fun have limp penises. I'm afraid you are focused on humans. How can the animal despise humans? You also talk about good and evil like they are real and absolute. Citation needed. Despise means a kind of animosity towards someone, after they violate you. Good and evil were made up words so that primitives would live comfortable lives and avoid pain and torture. Thus anything which has an intent of torture or pain is said to be evil. Thus keeping animals in cages is more evil than shooting them instantly. Edited April 16, 2017 by quickquestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Do I really have to explain why he's wrong? Yes please... He literally said that people who kill animals for fun have limp penises. No he didn't, I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickquestion Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Yes please... No he didn't, I did. Like OMG dude... He said you were right and then I said he was wrong for saying you were right... SO I LITTERALLY EXPLAINED WHY HE WAS WRONG FOR SAYING YOU WERE RIGHT. Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Like OMG dude... He said you were right and then I said he was wrong for saying you were right... SO I LITTERALLY EXPLAINED WHY HE WAS WRONG FOR SAYING YOU WERE RIGHT. Get it? Dude... Your not the 'Donald' are you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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