NerdyNerdson Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Ahem, before I begin please forgive me for any spelling or grammar errors. We look at our world as it is, but going to another world, studing its materials would be like entering another universe. In Earth we look at Hydogen as a normal thing, but alien life might look at it like a jewl, as they may have some unknown element that was part of everyday life in they're society, we would also look at it like a jewl. Now, this would trigger some sort of way to get that jewl, theres two options in this case. Our first idea would be to start some sort of trade route, but a trade route to us might look like a friendly jesture, but to them it could seem like a threat, causing a intergalactic war. The other choice would to be take it by force, which would still seem like a threat. again, causing mass genicide. How do we solve this problem? well most likely this option would never come to us, as we are measly humans are they are super intellegent beings, if they got some sort of commucation of us, they would most likely brush it off, as they have most likely found other life, and we are no surprise that there is life. As humans we are extonished by finding any evidence of life, our excitement getting out of hand, starting an accidental war. So, what I have learned from this is to just expect alien life to a point that we aren't surprised, just saying hello, then moving on. Once again, please forgive me for any spelling errors, criticism is accepted, thank you and have a wonderful day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe, so of course they would have it abundance. I guess you meant that as just an example but we know all the elements that exist so ... It might turn out that we are the superior intelligence and they are like that weird guy who was the janitor at school. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Assuming another world would be the home of intelligences is putting the cart before the horse a bit. Not to mention the only life we know anything about is us... Lots of speculation about your basic question and even life as we know it might be difficult to spot. Here on Earth we are still finding odd life forms, desert varnish is a good example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_varnish https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/apr/14/shadow-biosphere-alien-life-on-earth This also interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_biosphere. Chris Mckay of NASA fame has suggested that Titan might have life that uses methane and ethane in place of water. https://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/titan20100603.html If you want to visit another world i would suggest scuba diving, our land based ideas about life and what it should look like breaks down under water. a weird example but not as odd as it looks once you know what it really is: http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/201576/a-horrifying-living-rock-that-bleeds-when-you-cut-it-open/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NerdyNerdson Posted March 30, 2017 Author Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe, so of course they would have it abundance. I guess you meant that as just an example but we know all the elements that exist so ... It might turn out that we are the superior intelligence and they are like that weird guy who was the janitor at school. I see your point, but we know all the elements that exist on Earth.. they're could be endless possibilities behond our planet. Assuming another world would be the home of intelligences is putting the cart before the horse a bit. Not to mention the only life we know anything about is us... If we were to fall in contact with them, they would have to be at least slightly more advanced than us. Edited March 30, 2017 by NerdyNerdson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I see your point, but we know all the elements that exist on Earth.. they're could be endless possibilities behond our planet. No, we really do know all stable elements that can exist. There were a few holes, such as the radioactive technetium that does not naturally exist on earth, but we managed to make those artificially. If we were to fall in contact with them, they would have to be at least slightly more advanced than us. Not if we only contact them through radio telescopes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I see your point, but we know all the elements that exist on Earth.. they're could be endless possibilities behond our planet. Not for stable elements and isotopes. We know all of those. Abundance varies depending where you are in the galaxy, but chemistry and physics would have to be fundamentally different for there to be new stable elements we don't know about, and we see zero evidence for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Ahem, before I begin please forgive me for any spelling or grammar errors. We look at our world as it is, but going to another world, studing its materials would be like entering another universe. In Earth we look at Hydogen as a normal thing, but alien life might look at it like a jewl, as they may have some unknown element that was part of everyday life in they're society, we would also look at it like a jewl. Now, this would trigger some sort of way to get that jewl, theres two options in this case. Our first idea would be to start some sort of trade route, but a trade route to us might look like a friendly jesture, but to them it could seem like a threat, causing a intergalactic war. The other choice would to be take it by force, which would still seem like a threat. again, causing mass genicide. How do we solve this problem? well most likely this option would never come to us, as we are measly humans are they are super intellegent beings, if they got some sort of commucation of us, they would most likely brush it off, as they have most likely found other life, and we are no surprise that there is life. As humans we are extonished by finding any evidence of life, our excitement getting out of hand, starting an accidental war. So, what I have learned from this is to just expect alien life to a point that we aren't surprised, just saying hello, then moving on. Once again, please forgive me for any spelling errors, criticism is accepted, thank you and have a wonderful day. Your question is an intriguing one and has fostered many diverse opinions among Cosmologists. One well-known advocate of NOT furthering attempts at SETI or any other sort of effort to contact ET intelligent civilizations is of course Stephen Hawking. He uses the example of how, throughout world history, we have seen that, in cases where a tecnologically superior peoples comes a-callin' (LOL) on another, more primitive and indigenous peoples, that, well, things do not usually go so well for the latter. Columbus and his butchery and cruelty of the indigenous peoples he encountered is only--and sadly--ONE example of this dynamic. So...speculates Hawking, IF we were visited by another civilization, the odds are great--given the youngish 4.6 BYO age of our planet v the 14 BYO age of the Universe--that this ET civ. would be vastly superior to us. Maybe even to MORE of a degree than the Spaniards were to those natives. Maybe even to the degree of, say, you and your pet cat. If this were indeed the case, we would simply have to hope they were not hostile. If they were, they could pretty much take anything of ourse they wanted. Such speculation is, IMHO, not at all unwarranted. After all, given the fact that A--we know there is no intelligent life in our own Solar System, and thusly, B--that an ET visitor would have to travel from at LEAST 4.3 light years away--since that's the distance to Proxima Centauri--this means that they have far far superior propulsion techniques than do we. The pretty much have mastered speed-of-light-travel. They're doing something like folding the STC or utilizing wormholes. This of course os tantamount to magic for us, at this juncture. I for one do not believe we have been visited as of yet. But I DO believe the Universe is teeming with INtelligent Life. I DO think most of it is more advanced than are we. But I feel that the distances have precluded them from visiting us, or, we are simply of no interest to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousStudent Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 You also need to consider if the alien life is advanced enough to pick up on this. We commonly think of alien life as being an advanced race, but for all we know they could be at a point in there civilizations which could be likened to our Stone Age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 You also need to consider if the alien life is advanced enough to pick up on this. We commonly think of alien life as being an advanced race, but for all we know they could be at a point in there civilizations which could be likened to our Stone Age. Well, yeah, sure. Given the fact that the sheer number of planets in the universe offer the possibility of millions of planets with intelligent life, said civilizations are bound to be all over the spectrum insofar as their respective intelligence is concerned. So done if them may be less advanced than we. However, these civilizations would not have been able to visit us. Nor will they piss s threat. Which were the main issues being discussed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I see your point, but we know all the elements that exist on Earth.. they're could be endless possibilities behond our planet. Nope. We know all the elements that can exist. (And, they all exist on Earth.) If we were to fall in contact with them, they would have to be at least slightly more advanced than us. Or, we would be slightly more advanced than them. Why not? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) Nope. We know all the elements that can exist. (And, they all exist on Earth.) Or, we would be slightly more advanced than them. Why not? Whoa. Surely you're not claiming that it is impossible for an element to exist somewhere in the universe that we already do not have listed on the Periodic Table? That's an absurd notion. Please tell me I've read that wrong.Whoa. Surely you're not claiming that it is impossible for an element to exist somewhere in the universe that we already do not have listed on the Periodic Table? That's an absurd notion. Please tell me I've read that wrong.Also, there is no way any civilizations that contact us is less advanced than us. My OP above explains why. Or, can you refute anything I said in that post? (#7) I'd be very interested in reading your attempt at that. Thanks. Edited March 31, 2017 by Velocity_Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Whoa. Surely you're not claiming that it is impossible for an element to exist somewhere in the universe that we already do not have listed on the Periodic Table? That's an absurd notion. Please tell me I've read that wrong. Also, there is no way any civilizations that contact us is less advanced than us. My OP above explains why. Or, can you refute anything I said in that post? (#7) I'd be very interested in reading your attempt at that. Thanks. Yes, Strange is correct, we do know what elements can and do exist and all of them are listed on the periodic table. The fact you question this speaks volumes to your own grasp of science. As for the second, another civilization less advanced than us could contact us as long as they are relatively close by. Radio signals are not exactly 21st century technology... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Whoa. Surely you're not claiming that it is impossible for an element to exist somewhere in the universe that we already do not have listed on the Periodic Table? That's an absurd notion. Please tell me I've read that wrong. It is possible, but seems very unlikely, that there are stable transuranic elements. All the evidence suggests that atoms with molecular weights above 92 are very unstable. But any such elements can be put in their place on the periodic table. So, yes, that is what I meant. Also, there is no way any civilizations that contact us is less advanced than us. My OP above explains why. Or, can you refute anything I said in that post? (#7) I'd be very interested in reading your attempt at that. Thanks. I can't see anything that is evidence for another civilisation being more advanced than us. Just an assertion. I suppose if they came here, in some sort of advanced spaceship, then they would be more technologically advanced in terms of space travel (kinda obviously). But as the opening post of the thread was about us going to other planets, it seems more likely it would be the other way round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I would submit that there is every possibility that there are naturally-occurring elements in the Universe we know nothing about. And certainly elements which have been synthesized by Intelligent Alien civilizations that we cannot fathom. To think otherwise is hubris of cosmic (no pun intended) proportions, given the tiny, mind-numbingly small sliver of the Galaxy--let alone the Universe!--that we have observed or sampled. Please. We now know that we DON'T KNOW what some 95% of the Universe is comprised of! LOL> This, given the discoveries of Dark Energy and Dark Matter. We have zero clue what any of that stuff is. Those names, in fact, are simply place-holders. Given this fact, and the fact we have not yet figured how abiogenesis even happened, I am amazed how a person familiar with Cosmology and chemistry can think the science of the folks here on the 3rd Rock have already compiled an complete and exhaustive list of the stuff of the total Cosmos. -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I would submit that there is every possibility that there are naturally-occurring elements in the Universe we know nothing about. And certainly elements which have been synthesized by Intelligent Alien civilizations that we cannot fathom. How would that work, exactly? Atoms with six and three-quarter electrons? Or ... To think otherwise is hubris of cosmic (no pun intended) proportions, given the tiny, mind-numbingly small sliver of the Galaxy--let alone the Universe!--that we have observed or sampled. It is nothing to do with hubris. We know how atoms "work". I am amazed how a person familiar with Cosmology and chemistry can think the science of the folks here on the 3rd Rock have already compiled an complete and exhaustive list of the stuff of the total Cosmos. I don't think anyone claimed that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) I would submit that there is every possibility that there are naturally-occurring elements in the Universe we know nothing about. And certainly elements which have been synthesized by Intelligent Alien civilizations that we cannot fathom. To think otherwise is hubris of cosmic (no pun intended) proportions, given the tiny, mind-numbingly small sliver of the Galaxy--let alone the Universe!--that we have observed or sampled. Please. We now know that we DON'T KNOW what some 95% of the Universe is comprised of! LOL> This, given the discoveries of Dark Energy and Dark Matter. We have zero clue what any of that stuff is. Those names, in fact, are simply place-holders. Given this fact, and the fact we have not yet figured how abiogenesis even happened, I am amazed how a person familiar with Cosmology and chemistry can think the science of the folks here on the 3rd Rock have already compiled an complete and exhaustive list of the stuff of the total Cosmos. You are amazed because you do not understand what stable elements are or why they are stable. There could be a basket ball in orbit of Uranus, but since that would go against everything we know about out solar system I see no need to speculate it's existence. Why should we speculate about stable transuranic elements when that goes against everything we know about nuclear physics? Edited March 31, 2017 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) You are amazed because you do not understand what stable elements are or why they are stable. There could be a basket ball in orbit of Uranus, but since that would go against everything we know about out solar system I see no need to speculate it's existence. Why should we speculate about stable transuranic elements when that goes against everything we know about nuclear physics? Thanks for telling me what I don't understand. Your pedantry and hubris are impressive. Rather, I'll put myself up against you in chemistry any day of the week, amigo. And it's not my field of emphasis. You made my point although you don't understand that ....Lol...With your basketball analogy. Yes...There Could Be! Just as I said there Could Be elements in the universe we are yet unaware of. If we can create here on earth some 25 or so, last I checked we are at 117? Then why could not other more advanced civilizations create more? And even with natural elements. Who is to say we know them all? What is Dark Energy composed of? You sir have not a clue. Could be another element. True when you said the basketball would go against all we know. So what? Scientific progress and discovery happens because of instances and observations yield facts that contradicted previous thought. To think that we in the backwater s of one out of hundreds of billions of galaxies have cornered the element market is absurd. It is the sort of closed minded hubris that better suits religious fundamentalists than it does men of science. http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160115-how-many-more-chemical-elements-are-there-for-us-to-find Edited April 1, 2017 by Velocity_Boy -4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 Thanks for telling me what I don't understand. Your pedantry and hubris are impressive. Rather, I'll put myself up against you in chemistry any day of the week, amigo. And it's not my field of emphasis. You made my point although you don't understand that ....Lol...With your basketball analogy. Yes...There Could Be! Just as I said there Could Be elements in the universe we are yet unaware of. If we can create here on earth some 25 or so, last I checked we are at 117? Then why could not other more advanced civilizations create more? And even with natural elements. Who is to say we know them all? What is Dark Energy composed of? You sir have not a clue. Could be another element. True when you said the basketball would go against all we know. So what? Scientific progress and discovery happens because of instances and observations yield facts that contradicted previous thought. To think that we in the backwater s of one out of hundreds of billions of galaxies have cornered the element market is absurd. It is the sort of closed minded hubris that better suits religious fundamentalists than it does men of science. http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160115-how-many-more-chemical-elements-are-there-for-us-to-find I would wipe the floor with you in chemistry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 How would that work, exactly? Atoms with six and three-quarter electrons? Or ... It is nothing to do with hubris. We know how atoms "work". I don't think anyone claimed that. Fractional electrons are not needed in order for a new element to be created. It discovered. As far as knowing how atoms work. They said that back with the plum pudding and then the Rutherford models. Quantum mechanics has added more uncertainty to the nuances of sub atomic particle machinations. Who's to say that the probability fields put forth in QM follow the same rules elsewhere in the universe? Or during a supernovae explosion and attendant GRB? You? As Richard Feynman said, there is still plenty of room at the bottom. This means we may not know how atoms Always work, or if we have fathomed all possible combinations of them. -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 There may be other forms of matter, but there are not other elements. Elements are specific things. They are atoms with specific proton counts. By definition, you cannot fit any more elements between the ones we already know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 One well-known advocate of NOT furthering attempts at SETI or any other sort of effort to contact ET intelligent civilizations is of course Stephen Hawking. He uses the example of how, throughout world history, we have seen that, in cases where a tecnologically superior peoples comes a-callin' (LOL) on another, more primitive and indigenous peoples, that, well, things do not usually go so well for the latter. Columbus and his butchery and cruelty of the indigenous peoples he encountered is only--and sadly--ONE example of this dynamic. Off-topic, but that is an horrible and inaccurate representation. The conquistadors were not successful due to technological superiority. That alone would have been insufficient as they ware vastly outnumbered. Rather, a key element was securing alliances with the enemies of the Aztecs (something that was repeated in North America). According to letters from Cortés they had over 100,000 indigenous allied troops whilst the Spanish troops amounted to maybe 1k. And as mentioned, during the early days up to maybe the late 18th or so century (or probably a bit later) the technological gap between indigenous people and settlers in North America was not really that large to overcome numerical superiority. There is, after all, a reason why there were some many treaties with the various nations. Only after the then US created a modern army did the power of balance shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Just as I said there Could Be elements in the universe we are yet unaware of. If we can create here on earth some 25 or so, last I checked we are at 117? 118. Did you check what are their half-lives... ? Then why could not other more advanced civilizations create more? Elements (as long as made of proton(s) and neutron(s) bound together), with Z > 82 are unstable, very unstable or extremely unstable. There are known exotic atoms. Extremely unstable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_atom They could have nucleus made of not proton nor neutrons at all.. With normal proton-neutron nucleus elements, the rule is that the last electron ionization energy is approximately E=13.6 eV * Z^2 For Z=1 E= ~13.6 eV For Z=2 E=13.6*2^2 = ~ 54.4 eV For Z=118 E=13.6*118^2 = ~ 189366.4 eV You can see this trend on ionization energy table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energies_of_the_elements_(data_page) For theoretical element with Z=119 it would be E= ~192589.6 eV but electron mass-energy is 510998.928 eV... Do you see how closely we're approaching to rest-mass of electron with increasing Z... ? Edited April 1, 2017 by Sensei 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 Rather, I'll put myself up against you in chemistry any day of the week, amigo. And it's not my field of emphasis. How can you say this but claim we don't know all the stable elements? It's like you're claiming you could beat us all in rugby if you could find a racket with the right grip. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 I've known the stable elements since the 9th grade. So....How about we get somebody to find a test we can both do online and submit our answers? I bet I outscore you. As far as that racket grip nonsense, we will see who has the best grip on chemistry. Though, I am quite sure you won't take me up on the offer. Can't wait to hear your reason. Have a great weekend! -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endy0816 Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 ... Anyways... We don't have much that could not be found or made easily enough elsewhere in the solar system. Aliens may wish to remove us as a threat though, so they don't have to worry about us lobbing something their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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