Meltdown at Fukushima

[granpa]

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

A 3.5 year-old video is not news (so this has been moved), and video-only posts are not normally allowed by rule 2.7.

 

However, people are probably familiar enough with the subject that there may be discussion possible without watching the video

[John Cuthber]

"Meltdown at Fukushima"

Which?

There were 3.

[Sensei]

Such videos from the all nuclear plants failures should be watched all day long by every engineer/physicist dreaming about building nuclear plant in the future.. To avoid mistakes in the future..

Edited July 14, 2016 by Sensei

[Enthalpy]

Has any serious information been published about the state of the cores at Fukushima?

 

I haven't followed the situation for several years now, but during several months after the accident, Tepco had published nothing, and many other actors have run their own suppositions, supputations, hypothesis, theories that relied on nothing, nada, niente.

 

I don't even know if the head of the vessel #3 (and of #1) is still in place. I suppose it's blown away, but Tepco has not shown the location, despite it was accessible to cameras.

 

From the little I've read recently, Tepco doesn't know neither where the fuel is, or hasn't published it: still in the vessels or below them. I believed up to recently that the individual fuel pellets were still in the vessels, but the observation of microscopic radiocesium glass beads suggests that the fuel has reacted with concrete or soil. An ongoing imagery by muons may have told it meanwhile.

 

I still want an explanation about what exploded in #4. Hydrogen produced locally doesn't suffice to my numerical opinion, far less so since the building was punched for several days, and a hydrogen leak from #3 to #4 even less, since the building #3 was already destroyed. (Well, I had suggested to open the buildings so the explosions were less bad, which was done at #2, and since people took heroic risks for that, I had proposed that a combat airplane opens the hole instead. If that was done at #4 and the building exploded, I understand that Tepco won't release the video, for fear of wrong interpretations )

 

Under such circumstances, I don't see how the IRSN - which I consider credible people - can make an explanatory video about the accident. Maybe they have better information. But maybe it's only their best guess, and then diffusing such a video is a bad idea.

 

By the way, I heard several times "unstable" recently, a code referring to this accident, and also "hot", which tells radioactive.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Enthalpy

[CharonY]

Have you taken a look at the IAEA report? It is rather lengthy and I have not read it myself, but I would assume that it would be a good place to start.

[Enthalpy]

I've read so much nonsense from IAEA about this accident! And from Areva and most actors, by the way. Blunders as big as "the confinement has withstood it" one day after #1 exploded, as the building was open to the air and fission products spewed outside. Tepco's website is a better place.

[CharonY]

Except this is a summary report which should have collected the available information. There are also reports from various task groups looking at water discharge etc. I.e. as far as I can see there is a whole lot of lit out there. I am not sure whether someone has chopped it in simple bite-sized summaries yet, though.

[Sensei]

I've read so much nonsense from IAEA about this accident!

 

Then you should have no problem providing links and examples here on forum so we will learn about these "nonsenses"..

 

Waiting to see data you're talking about.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Sensei

[Strange]

I've read so much nonsense from IAEA about this accident! And from Areva and most actors, by the way.

 

 

How do you know it is nonsense?

 

 

 

Blunders as big as "the confinement has withstood it" one day after #1 exploded, as the building was open to the air and fission products spewed outside.

 

Now that is nonsense.

[Enthalpy]

Well, I'm not in the mood of going through my archives on the topic, so don't believe me if you prefer so.

 

Let me just mention that I've spent all my time, several months long, on the accident, studying the reports from Tepco which are factual, and proposing solutions, among which several where adopted:

- The concrete pump lorry to douse the spent fuel pools

- The radio-controlled heavy equipment to process the site and make it accessible to humans

- Several interpretations of radioactivity analyses, for instance the reported ³⁸Cl.

- and more

The reports I saw from about every foreign nuclear agency and company were nonsense. Disturbing when considering that they are in charge of the reactors elsewhere, and supposed to react to such an acident.

[Sensei]

Well, I'm not in the mood of going through my archives on the topic, so don't believe me if you prefer so.

You made statement, so it's your job to support it by data.

"Believe" is good in Religion section. We're not in this section.

 

Let me just mention that I've spent all my time, several months long, on the accident, studying the reports from Tepco which are factual, and proposing solutions, among which several where adopted:

- The concrete pump lorry to douse the spent fuel pools

- The radio-controlled heavy equipment to process the site and make it accessible to humans

Have you been personally at Fukushima after accident happened and instructed rescue teams what they have to do.. ?

 

- Several interpretations of radioactivity analyses, for instance the reported ³⁸Cl.

Sea water has obviously NaCl,

Cl has two stable isotopes Cl-35 (~75%) and Cl-37 (~25%).

If you will bombard Cl-37 by free neutrons,

there will be created Cl-38.

[Sensei]

But it's unstable isotope and will decay to Ar-38. Half-life 37.24 min.

Chlorine-38 -> Argon-38 + e- + Ve + 4.91645 MeV

Edited July 23, 2016 by Sensei

[Enthalpy]

Have you been personally at Fukushima after accident happened and instructed rescue teams what they have to do.. ?

 

That would be a stupid claim. It is your claim, not mine.

I proposed solutions on an internet forum and they were adopted. Which is a more constructive action than denigrating other people.

If you will bombard Cl-37 by free neutrons, there will be created Cl-38.

 

As everyone knows.

My contribution was to tell that it didn't happen.

You made statement, so it's your job to support it by data.

"Believe" is good in Religion section. We're not in this section.

 

But if Sensei doesn't believe it I shall survive it without any sequel, so I better invest my time in more useful activities.

[John Cuthber]

I've read so much nonsense from IAEA about this accident! And from Areva and most actors, by the way. Blunders as big as "the confinement has withstood it" one day after #1 exploded, as the building was open to the air and fission products spewed outside. Tepco's website is a better place.

I wondered where this statement

"the confinement has withstood it"

came from and I googled it.

Apparently, you made it up- because it doesn't seem to appear elsewhere on the web.

[Strange]

I proposed solutions on an internet forum and they were adopted.

 

 

I can only assume that you are totally delusional.

[Moontanman]

Such videos from the all nuclear plants failures should be watched all day long by every engineer/physicist dreaming about building nuclear plant in the future.. To avoid mistakes in the future..

 

 

Possibly they should be more aware of what is possible with modern technology instead of trying to make ancient technology work...

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/540991/meltdown-proof-nuclear-reactors-get-a-safety-check-in-europe/

 

[Enthalpy]

"the confinement has withstood it"

Apparently, you made it up- because it doesn't seem to appear elsewhere on the web.

 

It was a report by Areva, published on the day following the first explosion.

[Quoting my:"I proposed solutions on an internet forum and they were adopted."]

I can only assume that you are totally delusional.

 

Why assume something like this? Any reason for it?

 

I proposed a concrete pump truck to douse the nuclear fuel, there on Mar 17, 2011

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2657&start=60#p31130

the trucks were sent thereafter and used

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2657&start=100#p31257

 

I proposed to add remote controls to hydraulic heavy equipment, there on Mar 17, 2011

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2657&start=60#p31131

and it took about a week to make the adaptation before using them on site.

 

I told there why the ³⁸Cl observation was a mistake

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2657&start=160#p31368

while nobody else could make a sensible interpretation of it, criticity again or not.

 

and so on.

[John Cuthber]

 

It was a report by Areva, published on the day following the first explosion.

 

http://xkcd.com/285/

 

Incidentally, while you say that you pointed out that the sort of truck that pumps cement could be used to pump cooling water - and I think you did; do you not accept that probably every concrete-pump-truck driver in Japan made the same suggestion?

And they would, of course, have made that suggestion in Japanese, so their suggestion wouldn't have needed translation.

So why do you think that it was your posting that someone listened to- rather than stacks of home-grown suggestions of something that was, in fact, pretty obvious?

Believing that they did it because they saw your post on some web site or read your email is what suggests that you are delusional.

The same goes for your other points; do you really think that you were either the first, or somehow most important, person to suggest what's pretty obvious?

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by John Cuthber

[Enthalpy]

I know someone else can make the same proposals. But I feel my suggestions less immediate than that.

 

Radio-controlling excavators and cranes isn't done usually, and I had not heard about it before. A crane driver would improbably have suggested that one.

 

The interpretation of the ³⁸Cl didn't exist on the Internet before I told it. Quite the opposite, several academics tried to model how much ³⁸Cl would be produced depending on the fuel's condition and position, to inconclusive results.

 

Other proposals were accepted, less spectacular than these.

 

It took the reaction time (by people in a hurry!) before my suggestions were applied on site. The time to commission the Antonov after I proposed the concrete pump, the time to adapt the excavators, and just the time to read my intepretation about radiochlorine. Other people can (and often do) have the same ideas as I, but improbably at the same time.

[swansont]

Radio-controlling excavators and cranes isn't done usually, and I had not heard about it before.

 

 

Chernobyl used remote/radio-controlled concrete pumps.

http://www.putzmeistermedia.com/Other/Chernobyl_Site%20Report2.pdf

 

"the largest truck-mounted con- crete pumps available at the time, with “special equipment”. The extras included two adjustable video cameras per machine, mounted on the rear left-hand supporting leg and on the tip of the boom. These were intended for observing the filling of the feeder container and the actual concreting work from a distance. Moreover, it had to be guaranteed that the truck-mounted con- crete pump could even be operated from a distance of 600 to 800 m via remote control and by cable radio control. "

[Sensei]

saposjoint.net is blocking me,

and I am not able to see what you wrote about Cl-38.

 

Please be so kind and explain in what amount Cl-38 was found,

what was other people interpretations, you said that you disagree with them,

and then share your own interpretation.

[Enthalpy]

Thanks Swansont!

 

Just one other example is the cooler for the #4 spent fuel pool, since dousing with more and more water wasn't sustainable. I wrote "Liebherr manufactures truck coolers of the proper size" on Mar 29, 2011 and immediately, the government proposed to ship some to Japan. This proposal wasn't adopted, but it shows that my suggestions were read.

 

One nice report by Areva, possibly the one I had in mind

http://hps.org/documents/areva_japan_accident_20110324.pdf

on page 22 about reactors 1 and 3

"The reinforced concrete reactor building seems undamaged"

have a look

 

Nor is it reasonable from Areva to speculate about the reactor's status while noone had firm information. At that date, only Tepco was on site. Areva's drawings are merely speculations, and titling "accident progression" doesn't help. Did they have any kind of evidence that the drywell's tap was still on place on #3?

[Strange]

I wrote "Liebherr manufactures truck coolers of the proper size" on Mar 29, 2011 and immediately, the government proposed to ship some to Japan. This proposal wasn't adopted, but it shows that my suggestions were read.

 

And, of course, you are the only person on the planet who knows what products Liebherr manufactures.

[swansont]

Just one other example is the cooler for the #4 spent fuel pool, since dousing with more and more water wasn't sustainable. I wrote "Liebherr manufactures truck coolers of the proper size" on Mar 29, 2011 and immediately, the government proposed to ship some to Japan. This proposal wasn't adopted, but it shows that my suggestions were read.

 

 

No, actually it doesn't. It shows that post hoc ergo propter hoc is a real fallacy.