 # granpa

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894

## Everything posted by granpa

1. If their rule is lick our ass and call it ice cream like it is here then yes they will
2. No no my thread was locked. Oh boo hoo hoo hoo. please don't ban me mr. Moderator. Oh that would be the end of the world. Please don't ban me mr. Moderator. Oh I'm shaking in my boots. Oh where will I go? What will I do?
3. http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/19228/physical-meaning-of-the-energy-density-of-an-electrostatic-field And the rest is trivial
4. As for like repelling like that is the normal expected behavior for any field who's energy density is proportional to the square of the field strength. Combining two like particles doubles the field strength and multiplies the energy by 4. It therefore takes energy to push them together. When the two particles repel that energy is released. It is therefore passive gravitational mass that is weird even though that is what we are used to seeing
5. Repulsive passive gravitational Mass? Gamma ray bursts fully explained: The explosion is driven by the energy in the gravitational field when the mass defect (nuclear binding energy) reaches 100%. 100% mass defect means that 100% of the passive gravitational mass (inertia) has been converted to energy. Passive gravitational mass causes like to attract like. Without it all that is left is active gravitational mass and like repels like just as it does for electric charge so the quasar explodes in a grb. Ordinary matter has both active and passive gravitational Mass. But the passive gravitational Mass dominates.
6. God hath spoken
7. Well of course the equation isn't exact. Have you ever seen a graph of the Isotopes? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NuclideMap_stitched_small_preview.png#mw-jump-to-license
8. You demand evidence and then ignore it when it's presented. I assumed you would be able to figure it out yourself but since you evidently can't I will explain it to you. Active gravitational mass is mass that actively creates a gravitational field. It is the equivalent of charge. Passive gravitational mass does not create a gravitational field but it is affected by it. I did not invent either concept. Both are old ideas.
9. http://beyondearthlyskies.blogspot.com/2015/07/classifying-planets-brown-dwarfs-stars.html
10. The size of a brown dwaef or neutron star is a function of atomic mass only
11. no. thats what the equation says pressure at which an orbital becomes degenerate = 1/radius^6 thats why all brown dwarfs are the same size
12. Evidence for active gravitational Mass? The evidence is gravitational fields. As for like repelling like that is the normal expected behavior for any field who's energy density is proportional to the square of the field strength. Combining two particles doubles the field strength and multiplies the energy by 4. When the two particles repel energy is released. It is passive gravitational mass that is weird Evidence for large atomic mass: A "neutron" star is >11.5 km in radius. This is <6900 times smaller than Jupiter. This is what would be expected if it were made entirely of material with atomic mass<13800 Yes. Due to time dilation. That was the point. Are you deaf?
13. The only affect gravity has on photons is time dilation
14. Gamma ray bursts fully explained: The explosion is driven by the energy in the gravitational field when the material becomes massless! (100% mass defect!) A "neutron" star is >11.5 km in radius. This is <6900 times smaller than Jupiter. This is what would be expected if it were made entirely of material with atomic mass<13800 It's also possible that the neutron star has a dense core of atomic mass 16384 surrounded by a material of atomic mass 8192. atomic mass 8192 atomic number: 1215 Density: 2.35 * 10^14 g/cm^3 Pressure: 3.1 * 10^28 bar atomic mass 16384 atomic number 1808 Density: 1.55 * 10^15 g/cm^3 Pressure: 3.35 * 10^29 bar Atomic mass as a function of atomic number: atomic mass = (Atomic number)^2/256 + 2 * atomic number + x (x goes rapidly to zero after element 96) Surface gravity G * (density g/cm^3 ) * (4/3) * 3.14159 * (radius km) in g = 9.4 * 10^10 g Pressure at top of dense core: 0.5 * 11 km * (3.1 * 10^14 g/cm^3) * (9.4 * 10^10 ) * (9.8 m/sec^2) in bar = 1.5 * 10^28 bar﻿ The density of a neutron star = 3 * 10^14 g/cm^3 Gravitational binding energy of a neutron star is one tenth of its rest Mass 3 * G * (1 solar mass)^2/(5 * 10 km) = 0.1 solar mass A typical Quasar emits 1 solar mass of energy per year. The biggest emit 100 times more. Over a billion years about 10^10 solar masses. Thats the gravitational binding energy of a 100,000 solar mass 900 meter neutron star. ( 3 * G * (10^5 solar mass)^2/(5 * 900 m))/c^2 If the quasar is made of element 65,536 (7.55 * 10^22 bar) with atomic mass 16,777,216 (2^6 in size) then it would be expected to be 9 meters and 0.122 solar masses. The density might be 10,000 times less than expected due to the mass defect. That would allow it to be 100 times bigger therefore 10 solar masses but with the active gravitational mass of 100,000 solar masses The last 10 solar masses might be released in the final gamma ray burst. The resulting material would be massless and unaffected by gravity. Being massless it would explode outward releasing the energy stored in the gravitational field (10^10 solar masses) and turning itself into a 2 dimensional sheet. The sheets kinetic energy is converted to matter and antimatter. The final size of the sheet might be around 1000 au. Surface area: 10^22 times earth surface area It does not emit light even at extremely high temperatures. It does however emit considerable thermal energy as gravity waves. The final orbitals may well be infinitely incompressible.﻿ All matter within the sheet is attracted very strongly toward a remarkably flat central plane. Very much like a liquid membrane. It is as though there were a tiny drop of liquid at the very center of every proton or neutron. The strong force pulls everything (matter or antimatter) toward the surface membrane of that drop. When the final core collapse occurs all of these liquid drops merge into one giant drop. The entire core of the quasar now finds itself inside one giant drop. The sheet ends up only one particle thick with the particles straddling the fluid membrane and therefore experiencing zero force, Left to itself the fluid forms a very nearly perfect sphere.﻿ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_binding_energy#Mass_defect This means that like repels like for active gravitational mass just as it does for electric charges. Passive gravitational mass on the other hand does the opposite of what one would expect and completely changes the nature of gravity
15. h = d^2/2r r = radius of earth d = 77km h = (77km)^2/(2*6378km)=464meters Roughly 1km at 100km
16. A link to the Wikipedia article was given in the OP of the thread that got locked. 4 equipotentials for a very rapidly rotating planet. The corners are just barely orbiting the center. Y axis is the axis of rotation. This equation assumes there is a large concentration of mass in the center but should be an acceptable approximation even if there isn't Thank you Wolfram. https://www.wolframalpha.com plot [ -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.5, -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.55, -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.6, -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.65] for x= -1 to 1 ﻿ https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+%5B-%28x%5E2%2F2%29-1%2Fsqrt%28x%5E2%2By%5E2%29%3D-1.5,-%28x%5E2%2F2%29-1%2Fsqrt%28x%5E2%2By%5E2%29%3D-1.55,-%28x%5E2%2F2%29-1%2Fsqrt%28x%5E2%2By%5E2%29%3D-1.6,-%28x%5E2%2F2%29-1%2Fsqrt%28x%5E2%2By%5E2%29%3D-1.65%5D+for+x%3D-1+to+1﻿
17. If the sun began as a rapidly growing and rapidly rotating 60 JM (Jupiter mass) brown dwarf then it was at that time almost entirely metallic hydrogen/helium surrounded by a thin (1300km) ocean of 1 EM (Earth mass) of liquid hydrogen/helium. (Saturn has about 8 EM of liquid hydrogen/helium and 87 EM of something else) The pressure at the bottom of this liquid hydrogen/helium ocean would have been 1300km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 1.5 million bar Based on the abundace of the elements, 1.5% (0.9 JM) of the 60 JM protosun should have been carbon (95-13=82 EM, see below) and oxygen (190-25=165 EM) so it is possible that between the liquid hydrogen/helium ocean and the metallic hydrogen/helium there may have been a 3000km thick layer (if 8 g/cm^3) of metallic carbon and metallic oxygen It might have been less than that if, for one reason or another, part of it (the oxygen) sank If hydrogen only comes in two flavors, nondegenerate liquid hydrogen and degenerate metallic hydrogen, then it's very hard to see how a planet could keep the same radius as its mass increases from 1 to 60 JM. It is necessary therefore to suppose that metallic hydrogen comes in two forms, one much denser than the other. A partially degenerate metallic hydrogen and a fully degenerate metallic hydrogen. The layers would have looked like this: Nondegenerate liquid hydrogen and helium (0.0794 g/cm^3) Nondegenerate metallic carbon and oxygen Partially degenerate metallic hydrogen and helium (8 g/cm^3) Partially degenerate metallic carbon and oxygen Fully degenerate hydrogen (>80 g/cm^3) Fully degenerate carbon and oxygen When the pressure in the core of the 60 JM protosun became great enough and the fully degenerate metallic hydrogen core finally collapsed the protosun would have begun to spin faster due to conservation of angular momentum. If it spun fast enough then its outermost layers of liquid hydrogen and metallic oxygen and metallic carbon would have been thrown out into space where it would have coalesced into a moon which would have immediately begun receding from the rapidly rotating protosun due to tidal interactions. One orbit would be completed in only 25 minutes. 2*pi*sqrt((76000 km)^3/(G*60*317 earth masses))﻿ = 25 min If it continued to spin faster and faster then eventually part of its metallic hydrogen (now the outermost layer) would have been thrown out into space and would have formed a second moon which would also have immediately begun receding due to tidal interactions. The metallic hydrogen must have been solid originally since it didnt end up in the 1st moon but the heat released by the core collapse evidently caused a vast flood of metallic hydrogen lava that covered the surface (cf flood basalt) Maybe, just maybe, Saturn=1st moon and Jupiter=2nd moon﻿ (I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility﻿) This would explain why hot Jupiters are so common﻿ Jupiter's orbital momentum is far larger than the suns rotational angular momentum﻿. The moons orbital momentum is 4 times the Earths rotational angular momentum﻿. Jupiter would have been 1/60th of the mass of the protosun. The Moon is 1/80th of the mass of Earth. outer 4000 km of the protosuns partially degenerate metallic hydrogen = 1 JM 60*10^9 km^2 * 4000 km * 8 g/cm^3 in Earth masses = 321.5 Earth masses 4000 km might be the depth at which the metallic hydrogen transitioned to a denser phase. 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (saturn mass + Jupiter mass) / (Jupiter surface area) in bar = 600 million bar 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (5.7*10^26kg + 1.9*10^27kg) / (61 * 10^9 km^2) in bar = 600 million bar Uranus and Neptune (and planet X?) would have been created earlier by a similar process when the pressure in the core of the 8 JM protosun reached 600 million bar and the partially degenerate metallic hydrogen core collaped creating fully degenerate metallic hydrogen. Still no explanation for the odd rotation of Uranus but a collision is far more likely near the sun than further out﻿.﻿ The pressure in the center of Jupiter is 150 million bar if its metallic hydrogen has a density of 8 g/cm^3 0.5*76000km * (8g/cm^3) * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) * 0.5 in bar 0.5*76000km = radius of core By the time the protosun grew to 8 JM the core would be twice as big and the pressure in the center would be 4 times higher, 600 million bar﻿ And its liquid hydrogen ocean would be 0.1*76550km deep (6.77 EM!) 0.1 * 76550km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 8 * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar﻿ = 1.2 million bar﻿ = pressure at bottom of liquid hydrogen ocean 1.5% of the 8 JM protosun would be of metallic carbon (13 EM) and oxygen (25 EM) A 6.77 EM planet of liquid hydrogen would be 50,000km in radius. Its escape velocity would be10.4 km/sec. (cf Kepler 51-d) As Jupiter receded, the Protosun's rotation would have temporarily slowed and gas and dust from the circumstance disc would once again have begun to accumulate on it. If the rotation increased again then a planet of rock and iron could have formed. 1 EM would form a layer 20km deep. At 150 g thats equivalent to 3000km at 1 g. Earth contains 0.25 EM of iron. 250 EM of gas would have to fall on to the protosun to bring that much iron. Since the rock wasnt metallic that gas must somehow have been ejected from the rapidly rotating protosun. Had Saturn and Jupiter continued to grow into Stars then one of them would have been ejected from the system (a 3-body system is unstable) and we would now be in a binary star system. The planet that was not ejected would have grown until it also had 2 large moons; of which, at least one would have been ejected too. In this way, each star system spawns 2 more star systems until the molecular cloud is destroyed by a supernova. I always assumed that the circumstellar disk was destroyed when the sun began fusing hydrogen. But I guess it just dissipated naturally once the molecular cloud that was feeding it was destroyed by a supernova ﻿ ﻿https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf﻿ http://www.science20.com/robert_inventor/so_you_thought_you_knew_what_spinning_planets_look_like_surprising_shapes_of_rapidly_spinning_planets-155538﻿
18. Good grief It took me 20 seconds to Google it http://beyondearthlyskies.blogspot.com/2016/07/dwarf-planets-to-low-mass-stars.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf#Low-mass_brown_dwarfs_vs._high-mass_planets A remarkable property of brown dwarfs is that they are all roughly the same radius as Jupiter. At the high end of their mass range (60–90 MJ), the volume of a brown dwarf is governed primarily by electron-degeneracy pressure, as it is in white dwarfs; at the low end of the range (10 MJ), their volume is governed primarily by Coulomb pressure, as it is in planets. The net result is that the radii of brown dwarfs vary by only 10–15% over the range of possible masses. This can make distinguishing them from planets difficult.
19. he posted a link dude
20. After reflecting on it all day this is what I decided: All planets from 1 Jupiter Mass to 60 Jupiter masses are known to have approximately the same radius. The density of jupiter is 1.33 g/cm^3 A 60 jupiter mass brown dwarf is therefore about 60 times as dense and made mostly of metallic hydrogen/helium. 80 g/cm^3 = minimum density of the most dense form of Metallic hydrogen/helium I assume there is another less dense form about 8 g/cm^3 What is the true radius of jupiter? The surface of the gas giant is defined as the point where the pressure of the atmosphere is 1 bar, Scale height = the vertical distance over which the density and pressure fall by a factor of 1/e. saturn Scale height: 59.5 km jupiter Scale height: 27 km Below the Frenkel line the fluids are "rigid" and "solid-like", whereas above it fluids are "soft" and "gas-like".﻿ 76850km = polar radius of jupiter (76850km-300km) = 76550km = Frenkel line for jupiter = true radius Volume of sphere = (4/3) * pi * r^3 Mass of Jupiter = 317.8 earth masses 0.0794 g/cm^2 = estimated density of 739 grams of liquid hydrogen (0.071 g/cm^3) + 240 grams of liquid helium (0.125 g/cm^3) mass of Jupiters liquid hydrogen ocean = ((4/3) * pi * (76550km)^3 -(4/3) * pi * (0.5*76550km)^3) * 0.0794 g/cm^3 in earth masses = 21.8 earth masses Assuming that the rest of Jupiter's mass is in the metallic hydrogen/helium core we get: (4/3) * pi * (0.5*76550km)^3 * 8 g/cm^3 in earth masses = 315 earth masses of metallic hydrogen/helium in jupiter 0.5*76550 km = radius of metallic hydrogen/helium core in jupiter (1-0.5) * 76550km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (1-1/0.5)/(1-0.5) in bar = 1.5 million bar = pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic inside Jupiter (1-0.5)*76,550km = depth of liquid hydrogen /helium ocean 2.528 * (9.8 m/s^2) = surface gravity of Jupiter (1-1/0.5)/(1-0.5) accounts for increase of gravity with depth = (integral of 1/x^2 from 1 to 0.5)/(integral of 1 from 1 to 0.5) Saturn reaches 1.35 million bar at 0.25 from center (1-0.25) * (54300km-357km) * (0.0794g/cm^3) * (10.44m/s^2) * (1-1/0.25)/(1-0.25) in bar = 1.35 million bar Earth reaches 1.16 million bar at 2900 km depth which is enough to make metallic (but not degenerate) oxygen﻿ (2900km) * (4g/cm^3) * (10m/s^2) in bar﻿ Perhaps the inner core is metallic oxygen rather than iron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_oxygen#Metallic_oxygen﻿ Pressure in center of jupiter: 0.5 * 0.5 * 76550km * (8g/cm^3) * 4*2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 150 million bar﻿ If the sun began as a rapidly growing and rapidly rotating 60 jupiter mass brown dwarf then it was at that time almost entirely metallic hydrogen/helium surrounded by a thin (1300km) ocean of 1 earth mass of liquid hydrogen/helium. The pressure at the bottom of this ocean would have been 1300km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 1.5 million bar (saturn has about 8 earth masses of liquid hydrogen/helium) Based on the abundace of the elements, 1.5% (0.9 jupiter masses) of the protosun should have been carbon and oxygen so it is possible that between the liquid hydrogen/helium ocean and the metallic hydrogen/helium there may have been a 0.9 jupiter mass of metallic carbon and metallic oxygen (if 10 g/cm^3 then 2700 km thick) (It might have been less than a 0.9 jupiter mass if part of it became fully degenerate and sank to the core of the protosun)﻿ The layers would have looked like this: Nondegenerate liquid hydrogen and helium (0.0794 g/cm^3) Nondegenerate metallic carbon and oxygen Partially degenerate metallic hydrogen and helium (8 g/cm^3) Partially degenerate metallic carbon and oxygen Fully degenerate hydrogen (>80 g/cm^3) Fully degenerate carbon and oxygen When the suns core finally collapsed it would have begun to spin faster due to conservation of angular momentum. If it spun fast enough then its outermost layers of liquid hydrogen and metallic oxygen and metallic carbon would have been thrown out into space where it would have coalesced into a moon which would have immediately begun receding from the rapidly rotating protosun due to tidal interactions. If it continued to spin faster and faster then eventually part of its metallic hydrogen (now the outermost layer) would have been thrown out into space and would have formed a second moon which would also have immediately begun receding due to tidal interactions. The metallic hydrogen might have been solid originally which is why it didnt end up in saturn. After the core collapse and the beginning of fusion vast floods of metallic hydrogen lava probably covered the surface Maybe, just maybe, saturn=1st moon and jupiter=2nd moon﻿ I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility﻿ Jupiter would have been 1/60th of the mass of the protosun. The Moon is 1/80th of the mass of Earth. This would also explain why hot Jupiters are so common﻿ outer 4000 km = 1 jupiter mass 60*10^9 km^2 * 4000 km * 8 g/cm^3 in earth masses = 321.5 earth masses 4000 km might be the depth at which metallic hydrogen transitions to a denser phase. 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (saturn mass + jupiter mass) / (jupiter surface area) in bar = 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (5.7*10^26kg + 1.9*10^27kg) / (61 * 10^9 km^2) in bar = 600 million bar Even though the sun accounts for most of the mass of the solar system, Jupiter's orbital momentum accounts for the majority of the Solar System's angular momentum﻿ Had Saturn and Jupiter continued to grow into Stars then one of them would have been ejected from the system (a 3-body system is unstable) and we would now be in a binary star system. The planet that was not ejected would have grown until it also had 2 large moons at least 1 of which would have been ejected too. In this way each star system spawns 2 more until the molecular cloud is destroyed by a supernova ﻿ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf﻿ If hydrogen only comes in two flavors, liquid hydrogen and metallic hydrogen, then it's very hard to see how a planet could keep the same radius as its mass increases from 1 Jupiter Mass to 60 Jupiter masses. I'm thinking it is necessary to suppose that metallic hydrogen comes in two forms, one much denser than the other. However the nice thing about that is that if that's true then an earlier process similar to the one described above could be responsible for the creation of Uranus and Neptune as well.﻿ the pressure in the center of jupiter would reach 150 million bar if its metallic hydrogen has a density of 8 g/cm^3 0.5*0.5*76000km * (8g/cm^3) * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar its core would be 0.5*76000km in radius by the time it reached 8 jupiter masses the core would be twice as big and the pressure in the center would be 4 times higher, 600 million bar﻿ And its liquid hydrogen ocean would be 0.1*76550km deep (1-0.5) * 76550km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (1-1/0.5)/(1-0.5) in bar﻿ = 1.34 million bar﻿
21. ## Saturn and jupiter as moons of the sun

The only weak point with this theory is that if hydrogen only comes in two flavors, liquid hydrogen and metallic hydrogen, then it's very hard to see how a planet could keep the same radius as its mass increases from 1 Jupiter Mass to 60 Jupiter masses. I'm thinking it may be necessary to suppose that metallic hydrogen comes in two forms, one much denser than the other. However the nice thing about that is that if that's true then an earlier process similar to the one described above could be responsible for the creation of Uranus and Neptune as well.﻿
22. A moral person is a person that understands that the universe does not revolve around their ego. A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or group of people. The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is Economic, legal, and moral phenomena emerge from psychology which emerges from neurobiology in exactly the same way that life is an emergent property of chemistry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
23. ## Saturn and jupiter as moons of the sun

if the sun began as a rapidly growing and rapidly rotating 60 jupiter mass brown dwarf then it was at that time almost entirely metallic hydrogen/helium surrounded by a thin (4000km) ocean of about 3 earth masses of liquid hydrogen/helium. The pressure at the bottom of this ocean would have been 4000km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 4.7 million bar This is assuming that hydrogen becomes metallic hydrogen at about this pressure but hydrogen might not becomes metallic till 2-3 times that pressure in which case the ocean would be 2-3 times deeper. (saturn has at most 8 earth masses of liquid hydrogen)
24. ## Saturn and jupiter as moons of the sun

Jupiter would have been 1/60 of the mass of the protosun. The Moon is 1/80 of the mass of Earth.﻿
25. ## Saturn and jupiter as moons of the sun

Yes. Liquid hydrogen Metallic (but not fully degenerate) oxygen Metallic (degenerate) hydrogen Metallic (and fully degenerate) oxygen Lightest on top Heaviest on bottom That was the whole point
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