Phi for All Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 That is absurdly rhetorical and very easy for you to ask. If YOUR life is threatened, you take steps to be safe, or you are an idiot ready to die for your cause. Right? The people of Charlie Hebdo, who were killed, were living recklessly, and even joked about it. They could still be alive and doing their magazine in safety if they simply moved their operations. Magazine producers have no need for public access. I am not a cartoonist making fun of Islam, and I value my anonymity anyway, and I am sure you do too. We all know why cartoonists and writers SHOULD hide from threats to their lives. The answer is to survive. Duhhhh. Cartoonists and writers who insult such a sensitive group as radical Islamist, SHOULD not have to. But the world is the way it is, sorry about that. You must roll with the punches. Don't be delusional about your safety, do whatever you must to be safe. I think this is antithetical to free speech. If you go into hiding, I'm going to assume you're going to be safe from attacks like this, and my involvement will most likely end. But if you stand by your right to free speech in the democracy in which you live, if you refuse to give in to terrorism's fear tactics, I'm going to stand with you. I'm going to help you defend your rights. Because I don't want to have to hide either, ever, from those who want to shut me up because what I have to say threatens their extremist religious beliefs. Je vais commencer l'apprentissage du français. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimaMazin Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Gandhiji once said " There are many Causes for which I can Die but none for which I will Kill " Seems French policemen are armed by such belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 That is absurdly rhetorical and very easy for you to ask. If YOUR life is threatened, you take steps to be safe, or you are an idiot ready to die for your cause. Right? The people of Charlie Hebdo, who were killed, were living recklessly, and even joked about it. They could still be alive and doing their magazine in safety if they simply moved their operations. Magazine producers have no need for public access. I am not a cartoonist making fun of Islam, and I value my anonymity anyway, and I am sure you do too. We all know why cartoonists and writers SHOULD hide from threats to their lives. The answer is to survive. Duhhhh. Cartoonists and writers who insult such a sensitive group as radical Islamist, SHOULD not have to. But the world is the way it is, sorry about that. You must roll with the punches. Don't be delusional about your safety, do whatever you must to be safe. So, you think cartoonists should be "free" to live in fear of intimidation by criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airbrush Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) I think this is antithetical to free speech. If you go into hiding, I'm going to assume you're going to be safe from attacks like this, and my involvement will most likely end. But if you stand by your right to free speech in the democracy in which you live, if you refuse to give in to terrorism's fear tactics, I'm going to stand with you. I'm going to help you defend your rights. Because I don't want to have to hide either, ever, from those who want to shut me up because what I have to say threatens their extremist religious beliefs. Je vais commencer l'apprentissage du français. Making yourself accessible to delusional killers is not a smart way to support free speech. The way to CONTINUE your free speech is from a safe location, not to die. Salmon Rushdie is still alive because he went into hiding. The terrorists are delusional actors, and the fine people at Charlie Hebdo, who I admire, would still be practicing their FREE speech if they were NOT delusional. Sorry, even good people can be delusional occasionally. My father was a cartoonist all his life until age 90. He got me into an illustration class with a famous illustrator. One of the first things the illustrator told his class was "During times of political upheaval, the first persons to hang are the CARTOONISTS. Now draw yourself as a political figure." I could not do that because I could not imagine myself as a political figure. When he came by my desk and saw I did not draw anything, he asked me "Why didn't you do anything?" My answer was "Because I can't". Edited January 9, 2015 by Airbrush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimaMazin Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So, you think cartoonists should be "free" to live in fear of intimidation by criminals. They knew about bad protection therefore they should not gather together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airbrush Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) So, you think cartoonists should be "free" to live in fear of intimidation by criminals. The world SHOULD be the way we would like it to be. It is not. Better to live in fear of intimidation by criminals, if that is how you can continue your free speech, than to die courageously which terminates your free speech. Edited January 9, 2015 by Airbrush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The way to CONTINUE your free speech is from a safe location, not to die. So, you can only make your location safe by making it secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 The world SHOULD be the way we would like it to be. It is not. Better to live in fear of intimidation by criminals, if that is how you can continue your free speech, than to die courageously which terminates your free speech. I pray I never have to live in a world in which your advice is taken; personally I have no idea if I could be brave in these situations but I salute those that are and hope that I could be While others may have left Islam alone amid constant warnings of violence, Mr Charbonnier refused to relent. ‘I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no children, no wife, no car, no credit,’ he said after receiving death threats two years ago. ‘It perhaps sounds a bit pompous, but I’d rather die standing than live on my knees.’ Mr Charbonnier – nicknamed Charb – spoke out fiercely against political correctness, saying: ‘It should be as normal to criticise Islam as it is to criticise Jews or Catholics.’ The 47-year-old, who took over as editor in 2009, grew up in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, northern France and joined Charlie Hebdo in the early 1990s as a designer. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2900519/Cartoonists-mocked-Islam-refused-threatened-Quranic-law-killed-Charlie-Hebdo-massacre-terrorists-asked-name.html#ixzz3OLJAEpVF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you have to speak in secret then your speech is not free. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimaMazin Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you have to speak in secret then your speech is not free. Yes. But you can endanger only your life. When you gather with others then you endanger life of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 That is absurdly rhetorical and very easy for you to ask. <snip> the world is the way it is, sorry about that. You must roll with the punches. Don't be delusional about your safety, do whatever you must to be safe.I certainly understand your opinion here and you are clearly welcome to it. I simply disagree, and will just repeat what I've already said previously: The proper response to those seeking to silence free speech is not to hide, but to speak with greater vigor and passion and purpose. It may be dangerous, but so too is driving a car. We need far more courage here on these issues than we need cowardice and compliance with the extreme demands of an ignorant and radical few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonDie Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) The answer should be to crack down on terrorism, not to hide the cartoonists. edit: Provided that innocent muslims aren't affected, of course. Anyway, they didn't think it was likely they would be assassinated, and rightly perhaps. Unlikely events happen. Edited January 9, 2015 by MonDie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimaMazin Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The answer should be to crack down on terrorism, not to hide the cartoonists. Anyway, they didn't think it was likely they would be assassinated, and rightly perhaps. Unlikely events happen. France shouldn't feed terrorists. France should not finance Muslim terrorist countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Je vais commencer l'apprentissage du français. You will discover a wonderful culture. ---------------------- Charlie Hebdo didn't follow Georges Brassens advice: Mourir pour des idees, d'accord, mais de mort lente (trad.To die for ideas, that's o.k., but from slow death. -----that's O.K. but from sloo-ow death. http://lymoc.pagesperso-orange.fr/paroles/mpdi_p.html Edited January 9, 2015 by michel123456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airbrush Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) The lesson to be learned by all radical magazines that insult radical Islam that having a "rent-a-cop" around is not protection enough. You need to take more steps to maintain your safety so you can continue FREE speech. I suggest you do not walk around in public places with your free speech written on your back. Anyway, they didn't think it was likely they would be assassinated, and rightly perhaps. Unlikely events happen. They had police protection, but that was not protection enough. The proper response to those seeking to silence free speech is not to hide, but to speak with greater vigor and passion and purpose. "Swamp Fox, Swamp Fox, hiding in the glen, He ran away to fight again." Edited January 9, 2015 by Airbrush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonDie Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) A nice short article summarizing what happened and showcasing several of the covers that represented what this journal is all about: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/7/7507883/charlie-hebdo-explained-covers "'I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credit,' he told Le Monde in 2012. 'What I am saying may be a bit pompous, but I prefer to die standing than live on my knees.'" In other words, if Charbonnier was being reckless, it was because he was indifferent toward his life anyway. Now their assassination serves as an example of how loony these terrorists are. I mean, these terrorists put their freedom at stake to assassinate harmless cartoonists!! This was the joke of #1-3 of those cartoons you linked to. Edited January 9, 2015 by MonDie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airbrush Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) "'I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credit,' he told Le Monde in 2012. 'What I am saying may be a bit pompous, but I prefer to die standing than live on my knees.'" In other words, if Charbonnier was being reckless, it was because he was indifferent toward his life anyway. Now their assassination serves as an example of how loony these terrorists are. I mean, these terrorists put their freedom at stake to assassinate harmless cartoonists!! This was the joke of #1-3 of those cartoons you linked to. This also shows how loony the cartoonists are. These cartoonists think having mere "police protection" will make them safe. Now..... everyone in the industry .... beware. Be discreet, but get your free speech out there, and stay alive doing it. Moving is not a big deal to cartoonists and writers, since most work in solitary at home. All you need to move is a few desks, file cabinets, PCs, printers, etc. They are not like a church, saloon, or restaurant, that needs for the public to have easy access. Edited January 9, 2015 by Airbrush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonDie Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Well thanks to these "loony" cartoonists, some terrorists have popped their heads up and are being pursued by the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) As a side note: Charlie hebdo is a bit hard humor. Historically it is the direct continuation of another newspaper named "Hara Kiri" which subtitle was "journal bete et mechant (newspaper dumb and wicked). Much of the satire is chosen to hurt. There are some very hard sketches that have been published about Jesus and the President (the French one) that I doubt would have been admitted in America. Examples here below https://www.google.gr/search?q=charlie+hebdo+la+une&espv=2&biw=1138&bih=529&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=fjCwVOfJHInvUrnCgdAN&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQ https://www.google.gr/search?q=charlie+hebdo+une+hollande&espv=2&biw=1138&bih=529&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=uTGwVPilG4v0UvWYhPgI&ved=0CCYQsAQ And also you have to know about french politics, french tv, and so on. Edited January 9, 2015 by michel123456 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airbrush Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) The magic word is "DEPROGRAMMING". That is how you fight this kind of terrorism. Whenever you capture youths trying to go and fight in Syria, you take them to a deprogramming camp. You keep them there until they are deprogrammed of their cult programming. Change their minds through persuasive means. Maybe you can even turn them to work for the good side. Train them in anti-terrorism and send them into the cults to take names and call in drone strikes. Dismantle the extremist cults from the inside. Edited January 9, 2015 by Airbrush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Satire is an incredibly useful weapon, too, and people must remain brave enough to wield it even in the face of extremist threats if we are to ever move past the ails of today's society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Satire is an incredibly useful weapon, too, and people must remain brave enough to wield it even in the face of extremist threats if we are to ever move past the ails of today's society. Yes, Satire is a Thrilling form of Human Expression ! A sign on Human Excellence !! When you suppress it you suppress Human Development and Progress !!! Imagine if Hitler was ridiculed and he took it in the Right Spirit perhaps there won't have been a holocaust !!!! From Positive to negative the Expressions may scale down as >>> Absolute Happiness : Fun and Wishing well to All < = > All Governments and People live in Harmony Routine Progress and Growth : Hello World ! < = > All Conflicts reasonably resolved Amicable Resolutions : Books,Plays,SATIRES & Criticism < = > Just like what we should be Right now Religious,Racial & National Fights : Strikes & Obstructions < = > World in a State of Adjustments Wars, Negotiations & Border Conflicts : FB & Twitter Wars < = > The Current State of Affairs ! Unending Violence : Poisoned letters in Content & Substance < = > Worldwide Wars and Genocides Utter Chaos : Swearing at each other < = > Destructive Nuclear Wars !! OUR WHOLE HEARTED EFFORTS MUST BE TO RISE UP THE LADDER and NEVER DESCEND !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acord Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 As usual, the issue is moderation. Freedom of speech, yes, but up to a certain (ill-defined) point. Otherwise it becomes annoyance, insult or anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 As usual, the issue is moderation. Freedom of speech, yes, but up to a certain (ill-defined) point. Otherwise it becomes annoyance, insult or anything else. Being insulted is not an excuse for criminal violence or murder. The appropriate response to such an insult is to sue for libel or slander, not to discard the law and go on the rampage. As a side note: Charlie hebdo is a bit hard humor. Historically it is the direct continuation of another newspaper named "Hara Kiri" which subtitle was "journal bete et mechant (newspaper dumb and wicked). Much of the satire is chosen to hurt. There are some very hard sketches that have been published about Jesus and the President (the French one) that I doubt would have been admitted in America. Examples here below https://www.google.gr/search?q=charlie+hebdo+la+une&espv=2&biw=1138&bih=529&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=fjCwVOfJHInvUrnCgdAN&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQ https://www.google.gr/search?q=charlie+hebdo+une+hollande&espv=2&biw=1138&bih=529&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=uTGwVPilG4v0UvWYhPgI&ved=0CCYQsAQ And also you have to know about french politics, french tv, and so on. What do I need to understand about French politics that makes murder acceptable? And, are you aware that the US and UK politicians usually get a pretty hard time in cartoons too. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=steve+bell+%22president+bush%22&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=775&tbm=isch&imgil=zNw7BecTnpSPXM%253A%253BjyVEdDMW1VIsFM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fpritheworld.tumblr.com%25252Fpost%25252F57004893465%25252Fbritish-cartoonist-steve-bell-on-president-george&source=iu&pf=m&fir=zNw7BecTnpSPXM%253A%252CjyVEdDMW1VIsFM%252C_&usg=__xC9U_e_InoKa7tqwGfzccK1A3HE%3D&ved=0CCwQyjc&ei=4wixVJmyDY3waNXsgLAJ#imgdii=_&imgrc=4Ppjjcn-7CSnrM%253A%3Bcqt99LnnTTr6gM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstatic.guim.co.uk%252Fsys-images%252FGuardian%252FPix%252Fpictures%252F2003%252F04%252F10%252F4bell.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fno-pasaran.blogspot.com%252F2013%252F08%252Fus-president-depicted-year-after-year.html%3B372%3B192 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=steve+bell+%22president+obama%22&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=775&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=HAmxVI2NF4qrae-ygFg&ved=0CCAQsAQ&dpr=1#tbm=isch&q=steve+bell+cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimaMazin Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) As usual, the issue is moderation. Freedom of speech, yes, but up to a certain (ill-defined) point. Otherwise it becomes annoyance, insult or anything else. I do not think that people in Syria and Iraq criticize moslems, however they more irritate them there. Edited January 10, 2015 by DimaMazin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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