Just now, pinball1970 said:

Fair enough. At the risk of repeating myself can I have the chapter and verse where he said that please?

No.

1 minute ago, HawkII said:

No.

May I ask why @HawkII ? I think I have been respectful so far?

22 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

May I ask why @HawkII ? I think I have been respectful so far?

I'm glad you asked. I was going to tell you even if you didn't ask. It's because, I can't remember.

2 minutes ago, HawkII said:

I'm glad you asked. I was going to tell you even if you didn't ask. It's because, I can't remember.

+1

Totally fine

And honest, I like honest in an exchange.

1 hour ago, HawkII said:

Oh my gosh. I just told you what book.

@dimreepr If you have power to close this Thread go ahead.

No. If you know anything about the bible (do you, actually?) you will know it is a large collection of books, for example the book of Isaiah, or the book of Kings.

And within each book, there are divisions into chapters and then into verses within each chapter. So if you make the rather surprising claim that the bible includes a verse according to which God says he made the moon so that people would have something to worship, you need to be able to support that claim by quoting the book, chapter and verse in which it can be found. You cannot expect readers to read the whole bible just to see if your claim is true.

Edited August 12Aug 12 by exchemist

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

. So if you make the rather surprising claim that the bible includes a verse according to which God says he made the moon so that people would have something to worship,

Being surprising is what made it so memorable.

God really does think of everything.

I appreciate it's at the start of this thread so people can read it before they go in and it's reminded everytime a new post is made.

25 minutes ago, HawkII said:

Being surprising is what made it so memorable.

God really does think of everything.

I appreciate it's at the start of this thread so people can read it before they go in and it's reminded everytime a new post is made.

Except I think you made it up.

22 hours ago, HawkII said:

I remember once a fascinating moment I read in the Jewish/Christian Bible where someone asked God "What do people do, who don't know you exist?" God replied "I made the Moon for people to Worship"

Isn’t that a claim of the opposite of what is in the Bible texts in Cristian belief system? Monotheism; people should not worship the moon? Extract from an online Bible:

Deuteronomy 4:19

“And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.”

1 hour ago, Ghideon said:

Isn’t that a claim of the opposite of what is in the Bible texts in Cristian belief system? Monotheism; people should not worship the moon? Extract from an online Bible:

Deuteronomy 4:19

“And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.”

It's for the people who don't know God though. If they learn about God, then they can stop worshiping the Moon. Something better came along.

I do not see this Thread having any more value. Can someone please just lock this down now.

10 hours ago, HawkII said:

With all due respect. I read the Bible a long time ago.

Cite chapter and verse (use a search engine if you must) or admit you’re wrong and retract the claim.

32 minutes ago, HawkII said:

I do not see this Thread having any more value. Can someone please just lock this down now.

The fact that you’re finding it inconvenient to back up a bogus claim is not a reason to lock the thread.

There is no difference. Recent tale or old tale. Are both tales.

If a member posts his invented verse that is not on the Bible; be aware any other verse in the same subject that is already in the Bible is also an invention from someone else looong ago.

Does not need to be on the Bible for centuries to become truth. Or, being for centuries on the Bible does not make it truth.

If Humans forgot about all Religion, what could the Gods theoretically do about that?

So you are suggesting religion is the root of all the problems. Such as wars over religion? But I don’t think forgetting religion would change anything.

I believe God could make us forget if he wanted or remind us if he wanted.

In the movie, The Matrix, Neo is about to take a pill and asks, “Do I have a choice?” Does his personality always mean he will always choose the same one or is it predetermined? Does he have free will or is everything statistical?

I believe in the Bible Jesus’s teachings imply free will. And in my opinion that is good. We shouldn’t force beliefs on someone. We want them to believe for themselves. Not believing is a choice. We just say that they are “lost.”

I can see why people would imagine no religion, like the song. Especially if religion has been misrepresented or forced on them. But the question is does the atheist not believe God is possible or does the atheist believe God doesn’t exist because of the human representation of that religion?

53 minutes ago, Trurl said:

So you are suggesting religion is the root of all the problems. Such as wars over religion? But I don’t think forgetting religion would change anything.

The question was asked. Don’t read things into it. Nothing was said about root of problems.

I once borrowed the Quran for a few days, I skim read random pages from time to time. There was this one moment where an ANT of all things SPOKE. They didn't even specify if it was supernatural intervention or not. So really, if that's normal over there for ANTS to speak, even that wouldn't be a helpful reminder. The moment I read about that, I couldn't help but think of Disney's 'A Bug's Life'

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

I believe God could make us forget if he wanted or remind us if he wanted.

That's the closest you got to being on Topic. A valuable contribution non the less.

Edited August 13Aug 13 by HawkII

9 hours ago, Externet said:

There is no difference. Recent tale or old tale. Are both tales.

If a member posts his invented verse that is not on the Bible; be aware any other verse in the same subject that is already in the Bible is also an invention from someone else looong ago.

Does not need to be on the Bible for centuries to become truth. Or, being for centuries on the Bible does not make it truth.

Indeed, but since it's mostly written in metaphor and those, including @Hawkll, who don't understand the value of god/s, as a teachable moment, can't know that it's not the truth.

18 hours ago, HawkII said:

@dimreepr If you have power to close this Thread go ahead.

If I could I wouldn't, it's fun watching you squirm in your certainty.

It makes for one hell of a sitcom. 😅

If God wanted to be remembered he could change all the scientific properties.

He would get the attention of scientists everywhere.

Could God have built the World any other way? He just did.

On 8/12/2025 at 12:30 AM, HawkII said:

If Humans forgot about all Religion, what could the Gods theoretically do about that?

Whatever you want... ;)

You have a very primitive understanding of what it means to be God, i.e., you have slaves who are supposed to bow down, make sacrifices, pray, etc.

Such mindless creatures can be created in a 3D game, and they will behave according to some primitive pattern. It's terribly boring.

On 8/12/2025 at 12:30 AM, HawkII said:

I remember once a fascinating moment I read in the Jewish/Christian Bible where someone asked God "What do people do, who don't know you exist?" God replied "I made the Moon for people to Worship"

This is obviously nonsense, as the Moon was formed by the collision of a protoplanet with Earth.

i.e. it was a conversation between someone who knows everything who has no idea about anything, so as not to waste time, it was shortened to one sentence...

On 8/12/2025 at 12:46 AM, joigus said:

Worshipping is deeply wrong. Worshipping is incompatible with questions. If I had any inkling of a god, I would batter it with questions before any worshipping took place.

..then ask..

And then you'll cry that everyone knows your personal details... ;)

On 8/12/2025 at 1:20 AM, joigus said:

Dreams and visions have to do with the workings of the brain.

...“AI”/LLM has hallucinations, and they release them as text, and you get angry that you get some “crap”.. funny.. funny..

It's interesting that when a human has hallucinations (i.e., everything they are currently saying), no one has any objections, but when LLM has hallucinations (i.e., everything you have in the console), people on this forum have objections... ;)

On 8/12/2025 at 5:16 AM, Markus Hanke said:

They could show themselves.

In what form?

Could it be a form that destroys someone's life?

You have a company, a family, children, and then you will lose everything.

You had that in the case of Isaac's sacrifice etc.

If someone has committed some wickedness in their life, they can expect such attractions in the next generations of their children and grandchildren.

You have no idea why people can be punished for the sins of their ancestors who have long since passed away.

People notoriously take revenge on people from the same group as those who have committed crimes, so why shouldn't “gods” practice such techniques... ;)

On 8/12/2025 at 10:58 AM, HawkII said:

God can make Camels talk.

But animals talk to each other, but you're too stupid to understand them..

All that chirping from the birds in the sky isn't noise, it's just them talking in their language..

Do you know how to make a Russian from Putin's regime start speaking English? You have to give him a plane so he can fuck off from that collective farm... ;)

Edited August 13Aug 13 by Sensei

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

...“AI”/LLM has hallucinations, and they release them as text, and you get angry that you get some “crap”.. funny.. funny..

It's interesting that when a human has hallucinations (i.e., everything they are currently saying), no one has any objections, but when LLM has hallucinations (i.e., everything you have in the console), people on this forum have objections... ;)

Well, human hallucinations and so-called AI hallucinations are different things. Same word does not imply same concept, or that the analogy should be pursued necessarily, although it could be interesting.

I'm not sure if AI is relevant when talking about gods and their arguable "behaviours".

Hallucinations, particularly in the way of hearing voices or seeing visions, must have existed for a very long time among us humans. How these hallucinations were "socially channeled" so to speak resulting in some kind of evolutionary advantage (unifying decision making has been suggested as a possible advantage) is a synergy that must have taken place at some point during the upper Paleolithic.

It is entirely possible that AI-generated hallucinations might end up encouraging new religions in the future. Especially among ignorant people who are likely to succumb to the fascination of these tools. Who knows.

4 minutes ago, joigus said:

I'm not sure if AI is relevant when talking about gods and their arguable "behaviours".

You exist here in this universe..

Moment. Fleeting moment that you should praise and enjoy. Don't spoil it..

Edited August 13Aug 13 by Sensei

7 hours ago, Sensei said:

Moment. Fleeting moment that you should praise and enjoy.

Enjoying the moment leaves little time for praising.

7 hours ago, Sensei said:

Don't spoil it..

I'll try not to. 😄

Now that you mention praising, I've always wondered why gods almost universally demand praising. If there ever was a clue that gods are made up, that's it. Gods are designed with visibly human vanity.

25 minutes ago, joigus said:

Now that you mention praising, I've always wondered why gods almost universally demand praising

Sometimes burnt animals. If I was all powerful, enough to create creatures the last thing I would want is for someone to kill them and burn them just for me.

On 8/12/2025 at 10:58 AM, HawkII said:

Trust me.

No way. False memories of what the bible really says, and giving this as an excuse to trust you:

On 8/12/2025 at 1:54 PM, HawkII said:

With all due respect. I read the Bible a long time ago.

No, you do not get respect from me on this point. And even trying to wriggle out with such an excuse:

On 8/12/2025 at 4:05 PM, HawkII said:

It seems more likely that a part I liked about the Bible got changed after the revision and Update.

¹⁵ Since the Lord spoke to you from the fire at ·Mount Sinai [^LHoreb; 4:10], but you did not see ·him [^Lany form], watch yourselves carefully! ¹⁶ Don’t ·sin [ruin/destroy/spoil/corrupt yourselves] by making idols of any kind, and don’t make statues—of men or women, ¹⁷ of animals on earth or birds that fly in the air, ¹⁸ of anything that ·crawls [swarms] on the ground, or of fish in the water below. ¹⁹ When you ·look up at [^Llift your eyes to] the ·sky [heavens], you see the sun, moon, and stars, and ·everything in the sky [all the host of heaven]. But don’t bow down and worship them [5:8–9; Ex. 20:4–5], because the Lord your God has ·made these things [apportioned them] for all people everywhere [32:8].

From the Expanded Bible.

The Expanded Bible, while also imperfect, helps with all of these problems inherent in translation. It allows the reader to see multiple possibilities for words, phrases, and interpretations. Rather than opting for one choice, it shows many. It can, for instance, show both an original metaphor and a more prosaic understanding of that metaphor. It can show a second or third way of understanding the meaning of a word, phrase, verse, or passage. It can provide comments that give the historical, cultural, linguistic, or theological background that an English-language reader may lack. When helpful, it provides the most literal renderings to show what a translator has to work with.

So unless you are at least 2000 years old, and can read Hebrew, no, it was not really changed since then.

55 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Sometimes burnt animals. If I was all powerful, enough to create creatures the last thing I would want is for someone to kill them and burn them just for me.

Agreed. It's so easy to see in most of this the hallmark of human beings projecting their own feelings of guilt, inadecuacy, etc onto the external universe in some sense. It's obviously a crude sense of the need for reciprocity. Something like "I've taken too much from you, here's something back".

In the most sinister version it involved sacrificing children, like the Phoenicians did.

2 hours ago, joigus said:

Enjoying the moment leaves little time for praising.

I'll try not to. 😄

Now that you mention praising, I've always wondered why gods almost universally demand praising. If there ever was a clue that gods are made up, that's it. Gods are designed with visibly human vanity.

Do they demand praise, though? My knowledge of the OT is admittedly a bit sketchy, but as I recall it is people in the bible who exhort others to praise God, rather than a demand from God himself. I don't know about Islam.

2 hours ago, joigus said:

Now that you mention praising, I've always wondered why gods almost universally demand praising. If there ever was a clue that gods are made up, that's it. Gods are designed with visibly human vanity.

Who would you praise that you can breathe, see, hear, speak, walk on your own feet? We usually think that we have this by default. Our awareness, intelligence, memory, ability to know, to feel..We take them for granted.

I read that G.K. Chesterton said that “The worst moment for an atheist is when he is really thankful and has no one to thank.”