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Well that is the question. I have written here and probably exhausted the reasons I think that patterns in genetic information will not be random. It would be difficult to determine the value of a pattern. Like with electricity how do you know to measure resistance if you don’t look for a pattern? And once you have found a pattern often it can be backed up mathematically. But sometimes the value of the pattern is how the scientist chose the rules. Patterns are how we understand things. AI may find patterns we don’t understand. I heard it described that when the computer plays Othello it starts in obscure places on the board. I my approach to science I really don’t believe in random patterns. It is ok to disagree. I just don’t think as life as random. But if one believes in evolution they don’t have to believe genes are random. Even if I am wrong and cells are totally random I would not be deterred, because it would only mean look elsewhere for a pattern. It would also mean genetics isn’t as useful as believed because there would be no reason to decode it and learn how to modify it. But patterns and manipulation are already being done. So we know patterns already exist. The question is can you describe the patterns mathematically?

Of course it does There will just be more political battles. I am not against secure borders but deporting immigrants isn’t the way to go. There is no middle ground. All the current policies just stopped is as bad as letting them play out. I mean the Iran war, how do you fix that? I say the change of power doesn’t matter because stopping current policies is just as dangerous if not more than Trump finishing his term.

Should not have bullied to get your way. Not your policies but how they were implemented. Democrats rallying doesn’t fix anything.

Yes that is the question: would a math pattern correlate with some physical pattern? But can you think of mathematical patterns that explain physical things? Physics is full of them. If someone looked at electricity 200 years ago put it into equations it would be a challenge to describe it. They kept it simple or at least it seems that way because we learned it in school. Is there no simpler approach to genetics? And could a pure math solution or pattern help to simplify what’s going on? Again do you get patterns from experiments or from analyzing the data? I would say if you have enough knowledge and data math should definitely find patterns. Isn’t that what data scientists are doing now? It works for statistics. Something like during a football game where the announcer gives a stat that the running back is the first to have rushed 80 yards and have 40 receiving yards in 20 years. There point is it obscure statistics. The lump of data now finds all sorts of otherwise unseen descriptions. What comes first the math or the experiment? I saw a thread on SFN before if math was invented or discovered. Do we define the model that describes genetics or genes work in a certain way that defines the models we have? I got you. I agree that this is the language relationship again. I know that a crypto scheme works because all the data involved is numbers. But why can’t I substitute variables for different proteins? Or whatever chromosome? Suppose you were programming a program with class dog. You put in the definition dog =3. That may not sound important but with different algorithms dog=3 might create important relationships. That is like AI training. I a dog goes for a walk it tells you something more important than you think. Dog is many things and walk is one characteristic. But I get your point. I just can’t throw patterns into sets of billions of data. But like electricity everything looks that way from the beginning. I just hope we get the chance to look into this before AI. Why is feeding AI everything always the solution today?

Ok another question which may or may not relate to crypto and genetics. I listen to a podcast with Leo Laporte and Steve Gibson. Steve said forget cookies the web browser settings can narrow the user down to single digits. Like 6 billion users then millions who use Firefox then 1000 who disable cookies to what firewall. That becomes a unique finger print. Those numbers are paraphrased because I don’t have an easy way to look it up. But just as the browser settings identify and authenticate the user could you guys see any relation to grouping different DNA traits into categories?So instead of billions you have an 1 in a thousand instead of 1 in a billion. I haven’t researched it but I think this is how scientists go about it. To me this is where a pattern comes in. You would not have to know genetics to find a pattern mathematically. It would certainly help, but you don’t need the properties of the biology to use statistics on the patterns or groups the biologist grouped them in. CharonY I believe was arguing the point that a pure math solution would be meaningless and would not relate to the biology. And may be right. I don’t know enough about genetics to base my pattern. But this is how I envision scientists are approaching the problem. And don’t you want there to be a pattern? Not to just be mathematically beautiful but explain one aspect of our lives.

Yes, thank you that is the stuff I am looking for. The only problem is that I don’t have the data. By that I mean a database of genetic information.

That was just an example of cryptography use in DNA. The link is supposed to go under the first quote of yours but I couldn’t get it there on my phone. But do you think that those scientists that genetically engineered food don’t use some kind of recipe or cipher? Remember this is just an idea to apply cryptography to genetics. I am only saying it could be useful. You are thinking in terms of an entire protocol. Which could be good. But crypto is about communication and messages. I am only saying that we can apply it to the messages of cells. Obviously I don’t have the solution. I’m only saying it would be a worthwhile subject to study.

Patterns in any genetic information. I believe that the genetic information can be organized by patterns that would make sense to cryptography but not biological logic. Of course I believe people have tried similar things. Like how certain genes are linked to cancer. Or how AI would approach protein folding. If AI is as able to find seemingly non logical patterns in folding as it does cyber security we’d have new patterns with some patterns that seem like crypto. Treating genetics as a form of cryptography does not seem to be a fruitful approach. The second link I posted gives an example of using DNA as a form of cryptography. Not exactly what I was describing but you may find it interesting. The pattern of genes could be found in what we already know. I am not looking for a biological function that acts as the private key. It would be great if it exists but treating patterns should be more simple. I am thinking what a sine curve is to an electrical signal. It describes electricity and retains all the useful math we know about sine. Here is the link for crypto in genetics: https://villageb.io/ResourceDetail?id=11

I’m just trying to show correlation between crypto and genetics. I appreciate the post though. If we agree or disagree it doesn’t matter. You guys are more knowledgeable about genetics anyway. I am just saying crypto and genetics are both billions of instructions happening instantaneously. Without patterns they are both meaningless. That is why I believe crypto and genetics relate and want to look for patterns. I realize that may not be a completely scientific reason. And I should be looking into RNA, but when I say DNA I should specify I mean all genetics.

https://assets.answersresearchjournal.org/doc/v19/cryptographic_analysis_origins_DNA.pdf You are correct it is creation science. But that isn’t my point. I was just trying to post support on crypto used in genetics. The other link is using genetic information to encipher messages. My point was that in creationism or pure science a pattern exists, because if it didn’t we wouldn’t be here. These links are by Gemini on google. I don’t google everything first because when you google the brainstorms you had are buried under an information overload. I am trying to do a self study on genetics. Years ago I did a self study on crypto. I understand that I must take into account the chemistry and biology. But I don’t know why no one sees the correlation of crypto and genetics. Isn’t that how AI will approach the problem? I mentioned the million person study where all medical records of each person are stored. AI could compare traits of track statistics but if genes were compared and there were no patterns we’d learn nothing.

I’m referring to the link to the link to the scientific paper that said that evolution would take years longer than the age of the universe. I am saying we would not be here if it took that long.

Do not be deterred if the first link’s paper is trying to say there is not enough time for different species to evolve. I am no biologist but I say these changes in the DNA would make better sense if they occurred instantly. To me this is where the patterns would come from. Billions of variations would be worthless if it took millions of years to change. But I think this is where patterns come in. You wouldn’t have to change every combination to make changes. The billions of variations just make us unique. We may be similar but in our AES encryption brute force is needed to describe us. We may have genes that change rapidly but our ability to describe them is why the article describes brute force.

The code is hidden in plain site. All math models are a representation. I googled it and found representations of crypto based on genetics and a representation of the complexity of genetics of a cipher. Answers in GenesisBeyond Chance: A Cryptographic Analysis of the Origins of...These findings provide quantitative evidence that spontaneous formation of functional genomes through undirected processes is infeasible.I used the google as a last resort. I would rather discuss it on SFN first. This article also comments on the origin of life. There is so much complexity that it could evolve fast enough. That is not my argument. I am only looking for patterns in genetics. Where it all comes from is individual’s beliefs. Somewhere I came across a different site that mentioned hiding information in a genetic data. Not the encryption of genetic data but basing the crypto algorithm on actual biological data. Biohacking VillageBiohacking Village — Healthier Tech for Healthier PeopleThe Biohacking Village at DEF CON — collaborating for cybersecurity safety and innovation in healthcare since 2014. Medical device security, CVD, labs & more. https://villageb.io/ResourceDetail?id=11

Thanks KJW for the detailed representation. You must admit it does look like a crypto scheme. There is a lot of chemistry there. And I agree in makes finding a pattern a challenge. I understand why you guys emphasize the difficulty. I’m not saying I can crack this genetic code by solving this. I would start with the simple and build from there I am still reading the book and I don’t know why they choose the helix shape in the first place. There were dozens of people working together. I would start by taking something simply, yet maybe not described mathematically. I was interested in computational mathematics. They process data for patterns. They take what the scientists say and find what it means. I don’t know if AI will eventually replace them. But there are some patterns only people can find. This is why I think crypto applies to genetics: Where is the hidden code? The RNA? We see what is chemically involved. We have public keys. We see the results. But we don’t know the processing. It is a hash of chemistry. We have shape and protocols of the process. And math pretty much helps to describe every science field we have. I don’t think it will be solved with a single solution. But one you look at individual people and see them there is ciphers hidden by chemistry and quantity of data. I am enrolled in a million person study than compares genome to medical records. They have discovered hundreds of medical markers by comparison of the millions. I wish I knew how this comparison was done. But they must have supper computers and SI.

Well I accept the critique that cryptography is not a direct relation to the biology of genes. But how do you think AI is going to approach the subject? I mean like Othello board game the AI starts drawing unpredictable. I can’t experiment with DNA. I am not in a lab. I’m not even a biologist. I’m not even a mathematician. I just want to learn genetics and apply patterns to it. A cipher in an unknown language or unknown protocol is impossible to decipher. But patterns occur everywhere. I only want to apply my ideas and look for patterns. My basis is code patterns and mathematics relate to biological patterns. After all isn’t the shape of the DNA a known geometric shape any way. You can say it is intentionally designed that way. Or it evolved that way to program how life grows. But if it was designed I think there will be clear patterns to be discovered. If evolved patterns will exist. But I think it will show cells form the organism by a collective design.

Are they not linked. There is a whole field of applying computational mathematics to biology. This is not just me saying I want to relate crypto to bio. Steve Wolfram wrote about bio informatics and seeing what added to a disease would cure that disease over time. You are right I am naive to think I can find codes in genetics without knowing genetics. But my goal is to learn about genetics and see if any of my ideas apply. I think the individual’s genome is billions of markers. That is why you have to have crypto like computational mathematics. You guys definitely know more biology than me. But don’t think enough about genetics is known that there wouldn’t be unknown patterns. And let’s hope AI doesn’t find these patterns. Imagine the misuse of this information.

Yes I base the hypothesis on the simple fact of the shape. I am just reading about genetics now. Again with the simple fact that some guy in the 1990’s mapped the genetic code. I understand that it is a complex and unlikely task. But I am less concerned if it is impossible than the fact I want to test it with my ideas. Like Swanson said why aren’t x-rays boring? I would test 10 thousand x-rays if it had the potential to find the shape of DNA. When DNA divides does it duplicate or does it combine with other DNA? I thought RNA was just the instructions to the DNA. I know I can’t say the Caesar cipher will explain there mutation of a cell. But DNA still has protocols that describe how it functions. And geometric models still apply. Do remember when you could donate CPU cycles to aid in computational protein folding? Never not look for a pattern just because a pattern doesn’t seem possible. It is like not chasing the girl because she is too hot. If there is no risk there is no reward. Again back to taking hundreds of x-rays not knowing if you are going to find anything if it evens exists. I’ll have to look it up. I believe that if you use alternative coordinate systems like the log spiral or maybe your idea to use the sieve new patterns are shown. How many functions like circular functions have we got patterns from graphing them? Which leads me to the question why were they testing for a double helix in the first place?

Maybe not, but isn’t finding an energy source to travel light speed physically impossible? I’m not claiming it works. But do you agree with mechanics we are limited by our energy sources? And we know light can travel the universe. I know it is science fiction but the method of light is all ready there. Why aren’t we trying to build particles?

Thanks for some excellent responses. I realized the post doesn’t seem to fit any one topic. It is just a reflection of things that have caught my interest. I will share with you guys why I wanted to put crypto into the genetic code. I am not a biologist so I don’t know how the genetic code is organized. But when I was trying to find a pattern in Primes, I hypothesized that a logarithmic spiral could be modified to fit a pattern that reveals Prime numbers. I couldn’t get it to work, but I hypothesized that a coordinate plane fitted to a logarithmic spiral could find useful patterns. And a double helix is just a log spiral and its mirror extruded along the z-axis. As for particles always being smaller. What if instead of a Corvette you build a large “particle machine?” I mean enlarged a particle and rode it light speed across the universe on a light beam. Mechanically I don’t think we can build these machines based on current technology.I mean the things we currently build will never be capable to overcome the mechanical limitations.

This is going to sound dumb, but why can’t a Higgs boson particle be large enough to view? And why can’t a single cell be large compared to my height? Why do they exist in a state that is always smaller than my eyes can see? What is setting the scale on which everything is measured? I am reading a book called Meselson, Stahl and the Replication of DNA. So far the book is good at explaining to a amateur the research that found the structure of DNA. In chapter one they are using X-rays to find the DNA in a single cell. It’s brilliant. But would it seem brilliant as the research is being conducted? Wouldn’t it be boring to measure with X-rays? But it worked and I guess that’s why it became awesome. While I was doing research about cells and particles I came across the God particle who’s name has nothing to do with religion and named improperly. And I rediscovered a protein that resembles a cross. I know you guys are already aware of this protein. I find this interesting and it is easy to research because one only has to type a question into Gemini. But I am interested in this for the same reason I was interested in Gematria and that is to find a pattern that unites the scientific with spiritual. The spiritual may have many implications in the science. I want to treat genetics as a form of cryptography. Genetic patterns are found all the time, but I am not a biologist and the genetics might as well be written in a different language. What if we had build blocks and made genetic patterns as common as the cryptogram in the newspaper? That is why I have an interest in biology. I know on a science forum this isn’t the preferred method of conducting scientific. But I don’t think it breaks the scientific method.

I don’t have any plans for creating a digital signature. I don’t think it is the strength of this protocol. I am not saying it’s impossible but I think the strength of this protocol is anyone can send Caesar a message securely by only knowing his public key. It would act like a one way pad without both parties exchanging secret keys. I believe it is quite powerful. But it all relies on determining Alice’s key based on the comparison to the public key and the public key’s next iteration. This is difficult but so was the task of RSA to find the trap door function. Remember it is just a protocol. So I am saying that we assume that the great task of comparing Alice’s encryption to the public and reversing this change of encryption by comparing it to the next iteration of the public key is possible. When I talk about this I think of Ham radio. There the math from signals would do graphically and mathematically what such a complex equation could not. Like the curves based on a sine wave being combined and modified. It is just an idea. No guarantees it work. But I put it here so someone could make it work. If a solution completes the protocol it would be as valuable as RSA 48 years ago.

Well if you guys didn’t like Trump on buildings you’re really not going to like that Fox News is reporting that the race in AI and data centers is to create and train a Trump. 🤪 Now he can be leader for generations. This is the danger that Anthropic and OpenAI warned about.

You guys are right I don’t have a digital signature. You could use other systems to exchange keys. If Eve does impersonate Caesar, Caesar can add more public keys at different iterations of the key cipher. I will work on this. I am saying Alice encrypts the public key. The difference between what was just encrypted and the next iteration of the public key compared to Caesar’s secret key is the plain text. I still have the impersonation problem, but if we can compare keys in this way the protocol should work. You are right Sensei, this also is a problem. This is why the Caesar cipher is insecure. I know the terminology of hash, padding, a SHA, but not the actual setup. What is salting? I was under the impression that if I had the protocol and the cipher these things were already established. By changing iterations based on Caesar’s private key you could establish impostor Eve by establishing a secure key that is secured non publicly. After this was established you have security. This digital signature is tricky and I don’t know if I can make it happen. Wait a minute. Caesar is the recipient of the message. Eve can impersonate Alice, but Caesar would just get an incorrect plain text. The whole point is that Caesar gives his public key and have a secure message sent to him. If you publish your public key doesn’t it mean anyone with that public key can send you a message. Even a dog turd.💩 Alice can just like Caesar publish a private key.

Don’t be deterred by the Gematria. Any strong 2 key system should work as I mentioned. I just used Gematria in the example because it works well with the protocol. Gematria is consider numerology but is really a cipher language. Read the Wikipedia article. As early as 88 B.C. It was used to hide scripture in plain text. The Hebrew people could be killed sharing scripture. I hypothesized that it did have a higher meaning to them assigning words to numbers. But remember these were intelligent people they may have disguised there ciphers as religious meaning to broaden the cipher’s skills across the believers. It is a brilliant move to spread secrets across those who share your views while preserving the cipher’s effectiveness. Caesar in my example did not use a Caesar cipher because it is insecure. Sure he could use some type of geometry or increase his alphabet. But the Gematria a more robust, established system. To be honest I haven’t tested the Gematria yet. I just wanted to create a protocol that would enable private keys to become public cryptography systems. But it may turn out that Gematria is to Caesar’s protocol as Morse code is to simplify the alphabet.

Caesar has a private key. He uses Gematria (or similar crypto scheme) to run the private key through many iterations. A given number of iterations where the complexity is enough becomes the private key. Alice takes her key. Which is the second private key. For her use only. She uses a cipher, say Gematria and encrypts the message according to the public key and her private key. Caesar uses the public key and extends his private key one more iteration. This is what his cipher would look if he extended it one more time. Caesar then subtracts the value of the extended of his private key from Alice’s private and the public key. This is Alice’s plain text. Not a damn thing Eve can do about it. That is the protocol. It is public key but not based on current models. I am not trying to rebuild RSA. This relies on ciphers. I used Gematria in my protocol. It needs a ciphers to work. A cipher that wasn’t public key is transformed. It is a signal processing system. But it relies on the difference of each private key being found based on the way they react to the public key. It is a radar system.