Self-made billionaires (split from How come that a child of two non autistic people may have autism?

[Sensei]

On 2/6/2024 at 6:09 PM, StringJunky said:

I find it bemusing that insanely rich people think they understand the problems of the vast majority and think they can help, all the while, creating the conditions of poverty by draining the country's wealth away in some obscure overseas shell company.

Most of the "insanely rich people" are "self-made", so they know they have to force poor people to get off their asses and start up business on their own, just like they did decades ago..

Capitalist (libertarian) values are private property, private business, self-made business owner, earned by his/her own hands. Tax evasion is part of this. Government does not spend well funds gained due to taxes on regular people. Which you can see on your own eyes. And it is on either side of the world, no matter if we look at US, EU, Russia, China or whatever..

If the U.S. spent its tax money well, it wouldn't have the highest percentage of homeless people in the developed world, and it wouldn't have problems with teaching, treatment, prisons, etc. People ("the insanely rich") who understand all this do not want to contribute to wasting their money and being robbed by politicians. Which is quite understandable.

[swansont]

23 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Most of the "insanely rich people" are "self-made"

Citation needed

Quote

If the U.S. spent its tax money well, it wouldn't have the highest percentage of homeless people in the developed world, and it wouldn't have problems with teaching, treatment, prisons, etc. People ("the insanely rich") who understand all this do not want to contribute to wasting their money and being robbed by politicians. Which is quite understandable.

Or they’re just greedy and have leverage to pay less in taxes.

I mean, if it’s inefficiency they’re worried about they could just fund solutions themselves, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of that going on.

[Sensei]

24 minutes ago, swansont said:

47 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Most of the "insanely rich people" are "self-made"

Citation needed

@swansont seriously? seriously seriously?

The richest 10 people on the Forbes list. Which of them are self-made (from "zero" to "billionaire") and which have inherited billions?

 

To help you a bit: https://www.forbes.com/real-time-billionaires/

 

 

  

24 minutes ago, swansont said:

Or they’re just greedy and have leverage to pay less in taxes.

..isn't "greed is good" (quote from "Gekko")? Isn't that your "American dream"?

 

 

  

24 minutes ago, swansont said:

I mean, if it’s inefficiency they’re worried about they could just fund solutions themselves, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of that going on.

Do you live under a rock? They have Donald..

You need to save money (through avoidance) to be able to finance something around the corner.

You don't know what is being done behind public attention and you complain.

 

 

ps. I am not advocating, but saying how it is..

 

Edited February 7 by Sensei

[iNow]

Approximately 70% of those considered wealthy are self-made according to multiple analyses, but they tend not to give credit to market returns (aka: luck) where that’s clearly a relevant factor. 

[swansont]

43 minutes ago, Sensei said:

@swansont seriously? seriously seriously?

The richest 10 people on the Forbes list. Which of them are self-made (from "zero" to "billionaire") and which have inherited billions?

That’s a false dichotomy.

 

43 minutes ago, Sensei said:

 

To help you a bit: https://www.forbes.com/real-time-billionaires/

 

Musk, currently #2 on that list, has taken quite a lot of money from the government in the form of subsidies and loan guarantees. That’s not self-made. Bezos gets plenty of subsidies, too. Any US business gets direct and/or indirect subsidies from government sources. 

 

43 minutes ago, Sensei said:

  

..isn't "greed is good" (quote from "Gekko")? Isn't that your "American dream"?

Never saw the movie, but I think he was the villain, a composite character based on sociopaths, not someone whose wisdom is to be emulated.

You might consider that your view from the outside doesn’t give you much insight.

 

43 minutes ago, Sensei said:

 

  

Do you live under a rock? They have Donald..

You need to save money (through avoidance) to be able to finance something around the corner.

They’ve been there, done that if they are billionaires.

43 minutes ago, Sensei said:

You don't know what is being done behind public attention and you complain.

 

By the same token, neither do you.

54 minutes ago, iNow said:

Approximately 70% of those considered wealthy are self-made according to multiple analyses, but they tend not to give credit to market returns (aka: luck) where that’s clearly a relevant factor. 

Citation still needed.

From what I’ve seen, so-called self-made successes tend not to acknowledge the outside support they get, in addition to downplaying luck. Kinda like Craig T Nelson’s diatribe, “I was on foodstamps and welfare and nobody helped me” (paraphrase)

[Sensei]

11 minutes ago, swansont said:

Musk, currently #2 on that list, has taken quite a lot of money from the government in the form of subsidies and loan guarantees. That’s not self-made. Bezos gets plenty of subsidies, too. Any US business gets direct and/or indirect subsidies from government sources. 

..I am surprised, and actually shocked, to see such a way of arguing from your side.. So, you are not self-made scientist, your wealth is not self-made, since you worked for the government too..

 

16 minutes ago, swansont said:

Never saw the movie, but I think he was the villain, a composite character based on sociopaths, not someone whose wisdom is to be emulated.

You are pretty close. Nevertheless, it is worth watching the stock market and becoming a stock market investor to gain 1st hand knowledge..

16 minutes ago, swansont said:

You might consider that your view from the outside doesn’t give you much insight.

Who said I did/do not have view from inside?

"Citation needed"..

 

20 minutes ago, swansont said:

By the same token, neither do you.

You have no insight what I know.

23 minutes ago, swansont said:

Citation still needed.

From what I’ve seen, so-called self-made successes tend not to acknowledge the outside support they get, in addition to downplaying luck. Kinda like Craig T Nelson’s diatribe, “I was on foodstamps and welfare and nobody helped me” (paraphrase)

I can't believe what I'm reading.. Musk had billions of dollars before his first contract with the US government..

So. are you a hidden supporter of conspiracy theories? If this wasn't written by "swansont", but by "johndoe", it would get a lot of negs, next day, just because it's a simple conspiracy without any support...

 

 

[iNow]

25 minutes ago, swansont said:

Citation still needed.

Quibbling is a certainty with how one defines self made, but your request is is entirely fair and valid and aligned with site gestalt 

 

https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires-got-rich.html#

Quote

Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A study published by Wealth-X found that around 68 percent of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.

Here’s another take, though, and I find it to be a relevant counter to my previous claim (the above was from Fidelity, the below is from Bank of America):
 

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/heres-how-many-multimillionaires-are-really-self-made/

Quote

Bank of America Private Bank surveyed people with household investable assets of more than $3 million and over the age of 21. Here's what it found when investigating how those multimillionaires built their wealth:

* 28% are legacy wealth. They had an affluent upbringing and an inheritance. On average, 20% of their assets came from inheritance.

• 46% got a head start. This includes people who had an affluent upbringing with no inheritance, and people with a middle-class upbringing plus some inheritance. Those in the latter group got an average of 12% of their assets from inheritance.
•  
• 27% are self-made. They had a middle-class or poor upbringing and no inheritance.

One of the main observations of the study was that "wealth is often, but not always, connected to prior generations." It also noted that most of the younger respondents between 21 and 42 are legacy wealth, not self-made.

 

17 minutes ago, Sensei said:

am surprised, and actually shocked, to see such a way of arguing

I imagine you’re far more libertarian than most regulars here. We all benefit from shared governance and infrastructure

[Sensei]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

I imagine you’re far more libertarian than most regulars here. We all benefit from shared governance and infrastructure

..look at my profile photo..

 

[iNow]

Reminds me of this one 

 

I believe your intended point is that you’re actually more socialistic and not libertarian. Is that a correct read of your facepalm reference?

[Ken Fabian]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Approximately 70% of those considered wealthy are self-made according to multiple analyses, but they tend not to give credit to market returns (aka: luck) where that’s clearly a relevant factor. 

I expect the rate of success for self made wealth from initial poverty is very low compared to those starting from even modest (well short of "wealthy") inheritances - or just with families that can afford to be loan guarantors. "Just try hard and you will succeed" works much better for those with existing resources to draw upon - including being able to try again if not succeeding first time around more readily too.

 

[iNow]

Indeed. Some people have multiple boots with laces all lined up neatly on a dedicated shelf in their closets so it’s far easier for them to lift themselves up by their bootstraps than for those born barefoot to do so. 

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

Who said I did/do not have view from inside?

I know where you post from is not in the US.

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Here’s another take, though, and I find it to be a relevant counter to my previous claim (the above was from Fidelity, the below is from Bank of America):
 

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/heres-how-many-multimillionaires-are-really-self-made/

So 27% came from humble beginnings, without some family advantage to exploit. 

And like others I’ve mentioned, possibly taking advantage of government help. IMO “self-made” is largely PR/propaganda, and feeds the myth that the rich are smarter or work harder than the rest of us.

[MigL]

I would think it is much easier to go from millionaire to billionaire than to go from poverty to millionaire.
The poor, and even middle class these days, need to spend their money to survive and keep a roof over their heads.
They have no 'play' money for investments that can generate large wealth.

Usually 'self-made' means starting off with a small fortune, and turning it into a large one ( most often, at the expense of poorer people ).
E Musk did not start off as destitute; his family had already acquired wealth in the South African gem business.
I'm sure that emerald mine took advantage of a lot of poor black people.
Now he's seen as the 'rags to riches' guru, and people flock to invest with him.

Similarly, B Gates bought a cheap operating system, and when G Kildall went fishing instead of meeting with IBM, Gates was handed the IBM PC compatibility monopoly which lasts to this day.
( but at least he's using his money for some worthwhile causes, these days , unlike E Musk, or J Bezos )

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I would think it is much easier to go from millionaire to billionaire than to go from poverty to millionaire.

That is very true. The gap is the steepest for the poor, as there is no means to create or amplify wealth. The only resource available is labour and most money will be used to survive, leaving no space to invest. Entrepreneurship is difficult if you have no assets to leverage or if taking risks means to be be living on the streets. 

In contrast, even middle class folks can invest some modest amount after taking care of the essentials. And perversely, the ultra rich do not require income, they can just leverage their wealth.

 

[iNow]

20 hours ago, CharonY said:

Entrepreneurship is difficult if you have no assets to leverage or if taking risks means to be be living on the streets. 

Which is why Andrew Yangs popularization of Universal Basic Income was so appealing to so many. If we guarantee a minimum basic floor for all citizens then we can tap into enormous potential growth. 

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Don't autistics have a laser-like focus on the subject they are interested in ?

You know what they say, “If you've met one individual with autism, you've met one individual with autism.”

[swansont]

Some more info

“All billionaires under 30 have inherited their wealth, research finds”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/03/all-billionaires-under-30-have-inherited-their-wealth-research-finds?CMP=share_btn_url

[Phi for All]

On 2/7/2024 at 4:27 PM, Sensei said:

..I am surprised, and actually shocked, to see such a way of arguing from your side.. So, you are not self-made scientist, your wealth is not self-made, since you worked for the government too..

I am surprised, and actually shocked, to see you trying to claim that a government salary is the same as government subsidies. Subsidies for Musk, for example, include favorable loans, incentives, tax breaks, and environmental tax credits. They even built him factories. 

I haven't seen any good arguments about billionaires pulling themselves up solely by their own bootstraps. It's well known that billionaires can only exist if they steal the money legally from everybody else. Does anyone have an example of a billionaire whose employees love them as much as the stockholders do? All I ever hear about is how the people who do the most work get the least pay, and the person who gets paid most does nothing but figure out how to get paid more.

[swansont]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:27 PM, Sensei said:

..I am surprised, and actually shocked, to see such a way of arguing from your side.. So, you are not self-made scientist, your wealth is not self-made, since you worked for the government too..

 

Compensation from working for someone else isn’t the scenario under discussion.

My grad school time was subsidized by some government grants, but those were via the school, and in any event that afforded me the opportunity to get a good job and I’ve more than repaid that subsidy with the taxes I’ve paid over the years. A lot of government support (welfare programs, for example) is like that, but the give-and-take isn’t even when you get to the stratosphere of wealth.

Musk’s companies got $4.9 billion in government subsidy as of 2015, so the number is surely bigger now. And that’s corporate; it doesn’t count the personal tax breaks that only the wealthy can get, and the tax cuts they’ve gotten

https://www.taxnotes.com/featured-analysis/many-loves-elon-musk-and-incentives-won-them/2023/03/16/7g77f#

Quote

Most of the "insanely rich people" are "self-made", so they know they have to force poor people to get off their asses and start up business on their own, just like they did decades ago..

The notion that poor people as a group are lazy is one of those zombie tropes that keep getting repeated even though it’s untrue.

[dimreepr]

Self made, what an odd concept... 😉

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

 

The notion that poor people as a group are lazy is one of those zombie tropes that keep getting repeated even though it’s untrue.

Always baffled me, given that most working age adults below the poverty line are doing some of our civilization's hardest (and often most directly essential to survival) work and getting meager pay for it.  

As for "self-made," my impression is that those who are truly self-made are more likely found in squatter cabins than penthouse suites.

 

 

[dimreepr]

17 hours ago, TheVat said:

As for "self-made," my impression is that those who are truly self-made are more likely found in squatter cabins than penthouse suites.

Indeed, the hermit has the strongest claim to the title, but even they need, at least a good ax, not easy to get without some help.

Anyone, who claims to be self made are just deluded.

My mate thinks he is, he just forgets that he grew up in a council house and was educated in a state school, he also forgets that his parent's went on to buy that house, at a huge discount, from the state, and the profit from that inheritance, funded your building company and the tax benifits therein, also given by the state; and you think you're self-made, mate keep taking the pills you get from the chemist...🙄

Edited April 5 by dimreepr

[Phi for All]

19 hours ago, TheVat said:

As for "self-made," my impression is that those who are truly self-made are more likely found in squatter cabins than penthouse suites.

Or in neighborhoods that don't necessarily reflect their income. I read The Millionaire Next Door quite a while back, and the folks they talked about were as close to self made as I can imagine. They lived in modest homes in modest neighborhoods, bought clothes on sale off the rack, drank beer instead of champagne, and basically avoided most of the extravagant behavior many wealthy folks indulge in. But most of the folks in that book were worth between a few million up to thirty or forty million iirc, nowhere near billionaire status.

[TheVat]

Yes I've met a couple such millionaires, down in the low millions.  Their main form of high-rolling seemed to be in occasional purchase of experiences (overseas trips, cruises, private lessons) rather than material items.  Technically I'm down at the low end of that category, with a fairly minimalist life that does allow the occasional splurge.  When someone asks me how someone on a modest salary such as mine could have accumulated over a million, I can only point out that the DIY personality can unleash a fair amount of invisible thrift.  I recently replaced a fair amount of house circuits and the main breaker panel, which would have come with a price tag of around $4000, and deprived me of the hands-on fun.  And the other tip is the one that Warren Buffett workshops will empty your wallet to share with you, which is keep debt at zero.  Buy nothing on credit.

And, full disclosure: I'm a beneficiary of generational wealth, in the sense that support from middle class parents meant that I could get a decent education and not rack up early debt that would have gnawed away at my earnings for many years.  Many are not so lucky.

As @dimreepr points out, an initial boost from parents in providing capital makes a huge difference.  And a good axe, yes. 🙂

 

 

 

[Sensei]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:51 PM, Phi for All said:

I am surprised, and actually shocked, to see you trying to claim that a government salary is the same as government subsidies. Subsidies for Musk, for example, include favorable loans, incentives, tax breaks, and environmental tax credits. They even built him factories. 

So your post is actually an accusation of many crimes on both sides, if the government builds someone else's factories with government money, so it's fraud.... Did you come to the FBI with your claim of a crime being committed by the government and a private company?
If they build a factory for $1B and sell it for, say, $2B to a private company, they will make $1B. So the whole construction of the factory was an investment.

 

 

 

 

[Phi for All]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

So your post is actually an accusation of many crimes on both sides, if the government builds someone else's factories with government money, so it's fraud.... Did you come to the FBI with your claim of a crime being committed by the government and a private company?
If they build a factory for $1B and sell it for, say, $2B to a private company, they will make $1B. So the whole construction of the factory was an investment.

Or you were simply wrong to conflate a private salary from the government with subsidies, tax breaks, and other economic incentives Elon Musk got from the government. I'm going to go with that rather than chase this red herring.