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Why can't the philosophy of science be: Do what the aliens do.


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Contactees have been telling us about aliens for at least 80 years.  There is no evidence that they came here to eat us.  Nor is there evidence that they came here to invade the Earth.  Truthfully, some of the stories have involved scary abductions by aliens.  There might even be a fertility group of aliens out there that is looking for the right human DNA.  How many religious groups have been started in the name of contact with aliens? 

I'm not suggesting that science follow any of the UFO paths that went to bad places.  I am suggesting that there is nothing wrong with reaching out in meditation or intent to make contact with aliens who care about our planet.  We might even reach out to them seeking help with our technology.  I would think that aliens from Skinwalker ranch would know more about the physics of spacetime, than the dusty historic scientific from the 19th century that we cling to today.

The last 50 years of superstring theory has proven that mathematics doesn't lead to new innovations in physics.  There is a philosophical problem with thinking that extreme graduate level mathematics can teach us how to build a warp drive or develop the necessary technological breakthroughs that can take our civilization to the next level. 

There is something wrong with human philosophy that is allowing human civilization to slide into a dark place.  Whatever woo New Age crystals that you all don't like, it was taking us in the right direction. 

I am suggesting that we, as the scientific community, stop and reassess whether or not our philosophies are helping us survive as a species?  Or letting us perish.

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1 hour ago, Glancer said:

Contactees have been telling us about aliens for at least 80 years.

Fiction and hallucinations have been around even longer than that.

1 hour ago, Glancer said:

  There is no evidence that they came here to eat us. 

This would follow from “There is no evidence that they came here”

1 hour ago, Glancer said:

 The last 50 years of superstring theory has proven that mathematics doesn't lead to new innovations in physics.  There is a philosophical problem with thinking that extreme graduate level mathematics can teach us how to build a warp drive or develop the necessary technological breakthroughs that can take our civilization to the next level. 

Flawed reasoning. Superstring theory is only a small part of physics, so it can’t be used to represent the whole. Theory work is crucial to advancements.

 

1 hour ago, Glancer said:

There is something wrong with human philosophy that is allowing human civilization to slide into a dark place.  Whatever woo New Age crystals that you all don't like, it was taking us in the right direction. 

What innovations in physics have come about because of new age crystals?

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1 hour ago, Glancer said:

I am suggesting that we, as the scientific community, stop and reassess whether or not our philosophies are helping us survive as a species?  Or letting us perish.

Consider this oh monger of doom and gloom:

The polio vaccine took 20 - 25 years to develop.

The covid vaccine took substantially less than a year.

Edit

On the  lighter note of "what do aliens do ?"

Read

"How to be an Alien" by Georges Mikes.

Edited by studiot
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2 hours ago, Glancer said:

Contactees have been telling us about aliens for at least 80 years.  There is no evidence that they came here to eat us.  Nor is there evidence that they came here to invade the Earth.  Truthfully, some of the stories have involved scary abductions by aliens.  There might even be a fertility group of aliens out there that is looking for the right human DNA.  How many religious groups have been started in the name of contact with aliens? 

I'm not suggesting that science follow any of the UFO paths that went to bad places.  I am suggesting that there is nothing wrong with reaching out in meditation or intent to make contact with aliens who care about our planet.  We might even reach out to them seeking help with our technology.  I would think that aliens from Skinwalker ranch would know more about the physics of spacetime, than the dusty historic scientific from the 19th century that we cling to today.

The last 50 years of superstring theory has proven that mathematics doesn't lead to new innovations in physics.  There is a philosophical problem with thinking that extreme graduate level mathematics can teach us how to build a warp drive or develop the necessary technological breakthroughs that can take our civilization to the next level. 

There is something wrong with human philosophy that is allowing human civilization to slide into a dark place.  Whatever woo New Age crystals that you all don't like, it was taking us in the right direction. 

I am suggesting that we, as the scientific community, stop and reassess whether or not our philosophies are helping us survive as a species?  Or letting us perish.

What are you actually asking here?

Are alien's what we think of as God's?

Is an advanced civilisation (aliens) better than ours?

Or, why can't scientist's build an imaginary "warp drive"?

What you should be asking, given the general direction of the OP, is; what lesson's can we learn, philosophically, from our actual history, rather than Star Trek...

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37 minutes ago, MigL said:

Since there are not, and probably never been, any aliens on Earth, are you suggesting we do the same, and leave ?

Sometimes I wish I could leave, I've had one of those days...

4 hours ago, Glancer said:

I'm not suggesting that science follow any of the UFO paths that went to bad places.  I am suggesting that there is nothing wrong with reaching out in meditation or intent to make contact with aliens who care about our planet.  We might even reach out to them seeking help with our technology.  I would think that aliens from Skinwalker ranch would know more about the physics of spacetime, than the dusty historic scientific from the 19th century that we cling to today

This all sounds rather woo woo to me, since we have no evidence that aliens exist how can we reach out? And if they/it did exist why would we have any reason to assume we would be able to communicate with them/it, or if they want to communicate, or in fact maybe not even recognise each other's existence in the first place? It's all wild speculation mostly born from imagination that has been influenced by popular sci-fi culture. Most if not all of us fall victim to this at some point or another., as my old grany used to say "some more than others".  

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On 8/3/2022 at 4:03 AM, swansont said:

What innovations in physics have come about because of new age crystals?

Interest in crystals led to the study of Solid State physics.

Introduction to Solid State Physics, Charles Kittel, copyright 1986.

On 8/3/2022 at 7:08 AM, Intoscience said:

This all sounds rather woo woo to me, since we have no evidence that aliens exist how can we reach out? And if they/it did exist why would we have any reason to assume we would be able to communicate with them/it, or if they want to communicate, or in fact maybe not even recognise each other's existence in the first place? It's all wild speculation mostly born from imagination that has been influenced by popular sci-fi culture. Most if not all of us fall victim to this at some point or another., as my old grany used to say "some more than others".  

What you call woo might become the future of physics.  You have a NASA astrophysicist, Travis Taylor, who is being taken seriously by the American government with regard to phenomena that is occurring at the SkinWalker Ranch in Utah, USA.  I don't know how familiar you are with photogrammetry, but it usually involves a drone that flies over a region of land and takes thousands of picture.  Everyone of those pictures is associated with a GPS (global positioning system) set of data:  longitude, latitude, altitude.  At 2:25 and 2:48, there is a GPS artifact that looks like a bunch of photogrammetry pictures with a set of corrupted altitude data. 

Incidentally, GPS is subject to errors associated with general relativity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Error_sources_and_analysis

"In 1955, Friedwardt Winterberg proposed a test of general relativity—detecting time slowing in a strong gravitational field using accurate atomic clocks placed in orbit inside artificial satellites. Special and general relativity predicted that the clocks on GPS satellites, as observed by those on Earth, run 38 microseconds faster per day than those on the Earth. The design of GPS corrects for this difference; because without doing so, GPS calculated positions would accumulate errors of up to 10 kilometers per day (6 mi/d).[21]"

I assume none of you watch Secrets of Skinwalker ranch nor are you aware of the UFOs that have been spotted there are almost every episode.  Nevertheless, the American government is taking these things seriously.

Edited by Glancer
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50 minutes ago, Glancer said:

Interest in crystals led to the study of Solid State physics.

Introduction to Solid State Physics, Charles Kittel, copyright 1986.

That was a joke, right? Interest in crystals and "New Age" crystals are not the same thing. Either you knew that, or you were being serious. In either case, that's funny (though not for the same reasons). Thank you for the laugh.

 

50 minutes ago, Glancer said:

Incidentally, GPS is subject to errors associated with general relativity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Error_sources_and_analysis

"In 1955, Friedwardt Winterberg proposed a test of general relativity—detecting time slowing in a strong gravitational field using accurate atomic clocks placed in orbit inside artificial satellites. Special and general relativity predicted that the clocks on GPS satellites, as observed by those on Earth, run 38 microseconds faster per day than those on the Earth. The design of GPS corrects for this difference; because without doing so, GPS calculated positions would accumulate errors of up to 10 kilometers per day (6 mi/d).[21]"

It's not an error, as such. It's a known effect and is compensated for by adjusting the oscillator, as your quote indicates. I'm guessing there was a point in bringing this up, but I'm at a loss to discern what it was.

 

I'd say you have one more shot at salvaging some credibility and giving an indication that you want to be taken seriously but discussing matters of substance.

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9 minutes ago, swansont said:

It's not an error, as such. It's a known effect and is compensated for by adjusting the oscillator, as your quote indicates. I'm guessing there was a point in bringing this up, but I'm at a loss to discern what it was.

 

I'd say you have one more shot at salvaging some credibility and giving an indication that you want to be taken seriously but discussing matters of substance.

The UFOs that have been sighted on the ranch are hypothesized to be real spacecrafts that generate warp fields.  Warp fields introduce length contraction and time dilation effects that might account for all those photogrammetry pixels that are hundreds of feet in the air.  It could also be the case that if a warp field is being used, it could be under the mesa.  I understand that you don't care to watch this kind of show, but it is a real phenomena that needs to be explained and is being taken seriously by the US government. 

Any normal person would be dissatisfied with the theoretical physics community for presenting theories with obvious flaws in them, like Loop Quantum Gravity that is not compatible with big bang expansion. 

I don't want to criticize the theoretical physics community, but you force my hand when you say, "I'd say you have one more shot at salvaging some credibility and giving an indication that you want to be taken seriously but discussing matters of substance."

I already handed you a theory that has big bang expansion built into it.  It has physics constants unified with geometry built into it.  The theory naturally explains quantum entanglement and even has a path to warp field generation. 

I have presented evidence that the altitude data of a routine photogrammetric analysis of the ranch had corrupted points.  Seriously, I don't know what kind of data you think you are looking for.  If it can't be woo, it can't be you. 

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20 minutes ago, Glancer said:

I don't want to criticize the theoretical physics community, but you force my hand when you say, "I'd say you have one more shot at salvaging some credibility and giving an indication that you want to be taken seriously but discussing matters of substance."

We didn't mean to force your hand!!  For the love of God, please don't criticize the theoretical physics community.

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32 minutes ago, Glancer said:

The UFOs that have been sighted on the ranch are hypothesized to be real spacecrafts that generate warp fields.  Warp fields introduce length contraction and time dilation effects that might account for all those photogrammetry pixels that are hundreds of feet in the air.  It could also be the case that if a warp field is being used, it could be under the mesa.  I understand that you don't care to watch this kind of show, but it is a real phenomena that needs to be explained and is being taken seriously by the US government. 

Hypothesized. Might account. Could also be the case.

It's not a real phenomenon that has been established with any rigor. UFOs are unidentified. You think you have identified them. But you don't have any actual evidence.

 

32 minutes ago, Glancer said:

Any normal person would be dissatisfied with the theoretical physics community for presenting theories with obvious flaws in them, like Loop Quantum Gravity that is not compatible with big bang expansion. 

By all means, bring up your specific complaints - as long as they are legitimate scientific objections. I'm sure people would like to discuss the actual details. Note that not understanding something is not a legitimate objection.

 

32 minutes ago, Glancer said:

I don't want to criticize the theoretical physics community, but you force my hand when you say, "I'd say you have one more shot at salvaging some credibility and giving an indication that you want to be taken seriously but discussing matters of substance."

I already handed you a theory that has big bang expansion built into it.  It has physics constants unified with geometry built into it.  The theory naturally explains quantum entanglement and even has a path to warp field generation. 

What you presented falls way, way short of being a theory.

32 minutes ago, Glancer said:

I have presented evidence that the altitude data of a routine photogrammetric analysis of the ranch had corrupted points.  Seriously, I don't know what kind of data you think you are looking for.  If it can't be woo, it can't be you. 

I'm not going to watch the video (you're supposed to post things for discussion; watching videos can't be required) but corrupted data really isn't evidence of anything.

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11 hours ago, swansont said:

Hypothesized. Might account. Could also be the case.

It's not a real phenomenon that has been established with any rigor. UFOs are unidentified. You think you have identified them. But you don't have any actual evidence.

There is evidence that GPS signals are being effected by the SkinWalker ranch phenomena.  The phenomena on the ranch is effecting GPS coordinates of tests that are performed.  I am in full agreement that this needs to be studied and looked into more carefully.  The hypothesis remains:  are UFO's generating length contraction effects that are effecting the  GPS signal. 

Any smart phone has a GPS program on it.  If you run the program, and set your cellphone on a fixed surface, the longitude, latitude and altitude won't change.  But if a UFO with a warp field shows up, a significant deviation of longitude, latitude and altitude would be a good way to confirm that a warp field is being used. 

11 hours ago, swansont said:

By all means, bring up your specific complaints - as long as they are legitimate scientific objections. I'm sure people would like to discuss the actual details. Note that not understanding something is not a legitimate objection.

If I could make a wish, I would literally wish that the correct quantum gravity theory would be developed by the physics community.  It can't be all mathematically abstract and averse to experiments.  It has to look like Modern physics, cosmology, mechanics, electromagnetism, particle physics.  It has to explain where the physics constants come from and how they relate to geometry.  It has to have common sense built into it, up to a point where physics is what it is:  it is literally made of physics constants, geometry and the Euler equation which in turn give us standard model virtual particles and fields, which lead to real particles.

No more theories that are made of mathematical tricks that introduce more dimensions than what we can experimentally account for.  A good quantum gravity theory should account for all of the dimensions, even explain what dimensions are made of.  Should be self consistent.  Should predict something new.  Should be cleverly assembled.

11 hours ago, swansont said:

What you presented falls way, way short of being a theory.

I call it a model: Expanding Graviton Model.  The model leads to an experiment that, if the technological hurdles could be overcome, it would lead to a warp field generator. 

I don't believe that the Alcubierre drive is the only way to curve spacetime.  I think there is a way that uses significantly less energy.  We just don't have the technology to build it, yet.

11 hours ago, swansont said:

I'm not going to watch the video (you're supposed to post things for discussion; watching videos can't be required) but corrupted data really isn't evidence of anything.

 Don't be afraid to look into Galileo's telescope and see the moons of Jupiter. 

12 hours ago, swansont said:

Hypothesized. Might account. Could also be the case.

It's not a real phenomenon that has been established with any rigor. UFOs are unidentified. You think you have identified them. But you don't have any actual evidence.

I watched Star Trek TNG for years of my youth.  I always wished that there was more depth to the physics.  When I realized that the physics that we already had could lead to a low energy solution to a warp drive, it made me wonder:  why is the theoretical physics community wasting their time with string theory, loop quantum gravity, many world interpretation, and the erroneous belief that QM cannot be understood?

So the government is paying close attention to a NASA astrophysicists who is interacting with a real UFO, and the physics community isn't interested.  I literally cannot wrap my head around why.

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On 8/3/2022 at 5:40 AM, dimreepr said:

What are you actually asking here?

Are alien's what we think of as God's?

Is an advanced civilisation (aliens) better than ours?

Or, why can't scientist's build an imaginary "warp drive"?

What you should be asking, given the general direction of the OP, is; what lesson's can we learn, philosophically, from our actual history, rather than Star Trek...

Do you know what the difference is between woo woo and woo hoo?

Woo woo is when you are too afraid to do what it takes to do something amazing because you think your reputation is worth more.

Woo hoo is what happens when you are determined to do something amazing.

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23 minutes ago, Glancer said:

Do you know what the difference is between woo woo and woo hoo?

Woo woo is when you are too afraid to do what it takes to do something amazing because you think your reputation is worth more.

Woo hoo is what happens when you are determined to do something amazing.

No. Woo (or woo-woo), is pseudoscience believed by gullible and ignorant people: quackery.

Woo-hoo is the sound emitted by people of a sensitive disposition that have read too many of your silly posts. 😁

 

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28 minutes ago, exchemist said:

No. Woo (or woo-woo), is pseudoscience believed by gullible and ignorant people: quackery.

Woo-hoo is the sound emitted by people of a sensitive disposition that have read too many of your silly posts. 😁

Are you a defender of Sean Carroll's many world interpretation?  Or do we agree that s**t is crackpottery!

 

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4 hours ago, Glancer said:

So the government is paying close attention to a NASA astrophysicists who is interacting with a real UFO, and the physics community isn't interested.

You really seem enjoy indulging in fantasy.  Physicist on the other hand do the hard job of science and discovery.

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5 hours ago, Glancer said:

I could make a wish, I would literally wish that the correct quantum gravity theory would be developed by the physics community.  It can't be all mathematically abstract and averse to experiments.  It has to look like Modern physics, cosmology, mechanics, electromagnetism, particle physics.

The problem here is that you don’t get to tell nature how to behave.

5 hours ago, Glancer said:

I watched Star Trek TNG for years of my youth.  I always wished that there was more depth to the physics.  When I realized that the physics that we already had could lead to a low energy solution to a warp drive, it made me wonder:  why is the theoretical physics community wasting their time with string theory, loop quantum gravity, many world interpretation, and the erroneous belief that QM cannot be understood?

The science consultant (for a few years) on TNG was a friend of mine. His job was to make things sound plausible, but he would get overruled if the writers liked the story and improving the science interfered with it. There wasn’t more depth because the show was fiction. They made stuff up.
(when he joined the writing staff he asked some advice for a script because he didn’t want to make up some new physics, which is why we had a baryon sweep rather than naming some exotic new particle in Starship Mine)

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Here's a rough estimation of the odds that an observer from outer space, looking at Earth through a random time window, would find anything like high-technology, biosphere-managing, space-exploring civilisation:

Age of the Earth: about 4.5 billion years

Archaean/bacterial life: 3.7 billion years --> Probability: 82 %

Multicellular life: 500-700 million years --> Probability: 10 %

Intelligent life (evolution of frontal cortex): 20 million years --> Probability: 0.4 %

Hominin intelligence: 2 million years --> Probability: 0.04 %

Modern humans: 200'000 years --> Probability: 0.004 %

Agriculture (complex societies): 10'000 years --> Probability: 0.0002 %

Understanding of physical laws: 500 years --> Probability: 0.000001 %

Space exploration: 50 years --> Probability: 0.0000001 %

All of this is conditional probability: Assuming an Earth-like planet does exist, and it's close enough that the distance is not a factor. So I'm not doing Drake estimation's here, but only working with observation time as a variable. And I'm not considering parallel universes either. My intuition is that the sample space would get so unfathomably big that your hopes would grow even slimmer.

Fat chance.

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4 hours ago, swansont said:

The problem here is that you don’t get to tell nature how to behave.

What an odd thing to say.  You don't know where physics constants come from.  You also haven't noticed that a wave function solution to Schrodinger's equation is the heart of quantum mechanics in the sense that: you will solve for it mathematically for every standard model particle.  If that is true, then the wave function would be a good place to put the physics constants, to cover the most ground. 

Without physics constants, physics of our universe can't be expressed.  So you have to put it somewhere that is most common, so that everything in the physical universe has access to physics constants and can be expressed.  Does that make sense to you?

4 hours ago, swansont said:

The science consultant (for a few years) on TNG was a friend of mine. His job was to make things sound plausible, but he would get overruled if the writers liked the story and improving the science interfered with it. There wasn’t more depth because the show was fiction. They made stuff up.
(when he joined the writing staff he asked some advice for a script because he didn’t want to make up some new physics, which is why we had a baryon sweep rather than naming some exotic new particle in Starship Mine)

Well, a science consultant can hardly be expected to see the underlying pattern in real physics.  But there is one. 

 

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Science has observational evidence for all its claims.
What do you have, Glancer ????

What's wrong with string theory and loop quantum gravity is that they don't have big bang expansion and the Hubble equation (Hubble expansion) built into them without resorting to dubious hand-waving.  So in my model, I made "expansion at the speed of light" a fundamental characteristic of the building blocks of spacetime.  In doing so, the invariance of the speed of light for all observers is more natural.

Next, I looked at the two slit interference pattern.  For every slit that is open, there seems to be this ripple thing that is also a wave function.  Since the interference pattern works for single photons, then it looked to me like the interference pattern is always there in the same way that a road or highway is always there whether there is traffic or not (traffic represents photons).  As I looked closer, a highway is not the perfect analogy because it's static and always there.  Something more like a river or a waterfall, something that from far away might look static, but if you look very closely, a river or waterfall is really the dynamic condition of water molecules traveling by.  I couldn't tell you how many Expanding Gravitons are passing through the two slits per second, but someday, with enough information, somebody could calculate it.

You may not like that I am suggesting that a wave function has a dual existence as both mathematics and as a real mechanism that enjoys the status of existence because it performs the job of being the carrier of the physics constants.  But it is a simple enough explanation that anybody could understand it.  It is the Occam's razor of intuition and simplicity. 

Then, if the building blocks of spacetime are Expanding Gravitons, then you can easily place two expanding gravitons on the x-axis.  EG1 (expanding graviton 1) has it's center fixed at x = 0 (for all time).  EG2 can travel along the x axis, from left to right, at velocity v.  The Expanding gravitons together can reproduce the derivation of time dilation. 

X2 + Y2 + Z2 - c2t2 = X'2 + Y'2 + Z'2 - c2t'2

If the transformation satisfies the above equation, it will be consistent with Einstein's postulates; Anderson pg 10.

So I have a wave function ripple that I got from the two slit interference pattern.  I upgraded it to a sphere that obeys the equation above, making it a 4 dimensional object.  I gave it the job of being the carrier of the physics constants (which makes it real).  I don't have to do anything else, and I have a building block of spacetime that has relativity and quantum mechanics built into it. 

Superstring theory and Loop quantum gravity require graduate level bulls**t to convince you.  I only require some geometry, algebra, and a 2nd year college Modern physics book to do the same thing.

5 hours ago, joigus said:

All of this is conditional probability: Assuming an Earth-like planet does exist, and it's close enough that the distance is not a factor. So I'm not doing Drake estimation's here, but only working with observation time as a variable. And I'm not considering parallel universes either. My intuition is that the sample space would get so unfathomably big that your hopes would grow even slimmer.

Fat chance.

This is what your comment sounds like to me:  When I look outside my window, I do not see kangaroos.  They don't exist inside my house.  Anybody who says they have seen kangaroos is lying.  Anybody who has video of kangaroos is hoaxing it.  The odds of an animal that has a pouch and can kick the crap out of you, with tiny little hands, even slimmer.

Fat chance.

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23 minutes ago, Glancer said:

This is what your comment sounds like to me:  When I look outside my window, I do not see kangaroos.  They don't exist inside my house.  Anybody who says they have seen kangaroos is lying.  Anybody who has video of kangaroos is hoaxing it.  The odds of an animal that has a pouch and can kick the crap out of you, with tiny little hands, even slimmer.

Fat chance.

Playing straw man, are we?

You really have to up your game here.

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1 minute ago, joigus said:

Playing straw man, are we?

It's more fun to talk about kangaroos than it is to show you evidence of UFOs and tell you the stories.  I can't change your opinion.  Have you ever been punched by a kangaroo?

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Just now, Glancer said:

It's more fun to talk about kangaroos than it is to show you evidence of UFOs and tell you the stories.  I can't change your opinion.  Have you ever been punched by a kangaroo?

You really need to up your game.

There is definite proof that kangaroos exist.

There is not even a clue that intelligent civilisations from another planet are visiting us.

Are you familiar with the concept of a straw-man argument?

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