Unitive_Mystic

If civilization falls, will people go back to their natural habitat?

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48 minutes ago, Sensei said:

As I said earlier, everybody can make kefir, in just few hours from milk, and have their vitamin D nutrient, even if they're lactose intolerant.. They just have to have knowledge that fermented milk has no lactose (or tiny amount of lactose) (and knowledge what is lactose.. and what is lactose intolerance at all..)... It's much easier than migrate back to Africa, or so, don't you think so.. ?

This is a very similar case as in the case of sailors, and a deficiency of vitamin C causing scurvy. After they realized that citruses are healing them, they spread plant on the entire globe and used it. There was just needed knowledge "do you have scurvy? eat citrus"..

A bit of history: "James Lind (...) he developed the theory that citrus fruits cured scurvy. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lind

 

It depends on where you live. If you are african american in the United States, you would probably move to Arizona, Southern California, Texas, New Mexico, Louisiana, or Florida. There are many places to go. I used to live in Ohio and I could travel to Florida to visit family in less than 12 hours.

Most places probably won't let people migrate because it would take weeks or need a plane. However if you live in a country that has northern and southern climates you would be in luck.

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

As I said earlier, after hypothetical collapse of civilization, the most valuable thing will be knowledge. If they have just gigantic pantry, but have no duplicate of wikipedia (also in printed version the most important things like physics, chemistry, biology, etc.), they're not really prepared..

 

Exactly. And if they arent in the environment that is best suited for them they are also not totally prepared

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On 6/24/2018 at 5:29 PM, Ten oz said:

Half the world population lives on less than 2 euros a day. They absolutely do not all have those things.

Oh yeah, it's called welfare

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On 30.06.2018 at 5:22 AM, Unitive_Mystic said:

However if you live in a country that has northern and southern climates you would be in luck.

After collapse of civilization there would be no countries, no border checks, no central governments, etc. etc.

 

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16 minutes ago, Sensei said:

After collapse of civilization there would be no countries, no border checks, no central governments, etc. etc.

2

And no easy way to travel.

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On 7/5/2018 at 7:45 AM, Sensei said:

After collapse of civilization there would be no countries, no border checks, no central governments, etc. etc.

 

Yes, making it easier to get from one place to the other. (no paperwork to go through when relocating)

On 7/5/2018 at 8:03 AM, dimreepr said:

And no easy way to travel.

Actually it would be easier. After a few years there would be no road traffic, crowded places, or any paperwork to go through to gain citizenship.

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Ok so a lot of stuff has been said here. A few things I'd like to adress: all but very few white people can actually turn quite dark with ample UV exposure. So for the most part, that's not really a problem for white people migrating to more sunny climes. Also, people with a higher basic pigmentation can actually get plenty of Vitamin D in northern climes, and not just in the summer. Light skin is actually a rather recent adaptation to a lifestyle that involves the mass consumption of Vitamin D lacking cereals. Native Americans near the arctic circle are still quite dark skinned, because cereals never became part of their culture until really recently, same with the native Yakutsk tribes of northern siberia.

Regarding the loss of knowledge, yes this would become a problem over just one human lifetime. But a few bastions of knowledge would remain like the monastic orders of Europe that conserved lots of the wisdom of the Roman Empire, which was rediscovered by in the Renaissance and made available to anyone who had the time and inclination to study them. I would hypothesize that this is where the word Renaissance Man comes from, someone who studied the ancient Roman sciences and made use of them. There are so many people and someone somewhere would still know how to fire up a PC and read their greatgrandparents digital copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica. I think someone wrote "played too much Fallout"? There certainly are some really weird folks and organizations portrayed in the series, but I don't think it's all too far fetched. An organization that used technology for their own goals and for whatever reason restricted the use of technology by other people after the Fall isn't too far fetched. It would basically give them a strong regional chokehold over whomever is in range of their fully operational rocket launcher base. If they wanted to expand their territory, they would have to install a sort of feudal hierarchy, so they would see societal structures akin to the middle ages.

I wouldn't want civilization to fall. I am wholly dependent on it. Unless I ended up near a pharmaceutical laboratory, assuming I can defend myself from physical harm and not die of hunger, thirst or exposure, without medicine I'd be dead within months anyway

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After flicking through 4 pages of this thread I can't see anything that addresses a simple point.

I am in my natural habitat already.

I'm a human, on Earth.

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On 06/07/2018 at 7:21 PM, Unitive_Mystic said:

Yes, making it easier to get from one place to the other. (no paperwork to go through when relocating)

Actually it would be easier. After a few years there would be no road traffic, crowded places, or any paperwork to go through to gain citizenship.

Just so I'm clear, you think it would be easier to get from Finland to Africa after society collapses, than it is now? Can you describe how you might take that trip?

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Just so I'm clear, you think it would be easier to get from Finland to Africa after society collapses, than it is now? Can you describe how you might take that trip?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Helsinki,+Finland/Morocco/@44.7240694,-9.3905142,4z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x46920bc796210691:0xcd4ebd843be2f763!2m2!1d24.9383791!2d60.1698557!1m5!1m1!1s0xd0b88619651c58d:0xd9d39381c42cffc3!2m2!1d-7.09262!2d31.791702!3e0

 It's about 5000 km.

On a bike, 20km per day rattles it off in less  than a  year.

You will need a very big rucksack.

:)

Edited by John Cuthber

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On 7/7/2018 at 1:21 AM, Unitive_Mystic said:

Actually it would be easier. After a few years there would be no road traffic, crowded places, or any paperwork to go through to gain citizenship.

Wow, you're still on this soft brexit deal, hilarious; no traffic = no movement BTW...

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On 7/9/2018 at 10:50 AM, dimreepr said:

Wow, you're still on this soft brexit deal, hilarious; no traffic = no movement BTW...

No traffic = room for horse wagon travel, a car that uses ethanol (you would be one of the few people on the road because most people would be dead) horse back, dog sled in winter ect. 

On 7/9/2018 at 10:15 AM, zapatos said:

Just so I'm clear, you think it would be easier to get from Finland to Africa after society collapses, than it is now? Can you describe how you might take that trip?

No but you can get from Michigan to texas. Canada to Tennessee, Colorado to Mexico, Spain to Africa, China to India. Some people couldn't migrate.

On 7/7/2018 at 7:56 AM, John Cuthber said:

After flicking through 4 pages of this thread I can't see anything that addresses a simple point.

I am in my natural habitat already.

I'm a human, on Earth.

You still have a habitat on earth

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32 minutes ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

 

No but you can get from Michigan to texas. Canada to Tennessee, Colorado to Mexico, Spain to Africa, China to India. Some people couldn't migrate.

 

Okay, so tell me what method you would take to get from Michigan to Texas after society collapses that is easier than getting from Michigan to Texas using current methods.

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On 7/11/2018 at 2:03 PM, zapatos said:

Okay, so tell me what method you would take to get from Michigan to Texas after society collapses that is easier than getting from Michigan to Texas using current methods.

It depends if I had the ability to do so or not. I would go from Michagan to Texas IF I had the recourses to do so. If I had a car with gas I would use that, if I had a horses I would use that. If I didn't have any more of transportation then there would be no easy way to migrate.

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On 7/11/2018 at 7:29 PM, Unitive_Mystic said:

No traffic = room for horse wagon travel, a car that uses ethanol (you would be one of the few people on the road because most people would be dead) horse back, dog sled in winter ect. 

3

You're cherry picking in order to support your unsupportable OP. Migration happens for two basic reasons, lack of food/money/prospects or excess of food/money/desire. 

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8 hours ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

It depends if I had the ability to do so or not. I would go from Michagan to Texas IF I had the recourses to do so. If I had a car with gas I would use that, if I had a horses I would use that. If I didn't have any more of transportation then there would be no easy way to migrate.

Explain how taking a horse from Michigan to Texas is easier than taking a plane, train, or bus.

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On 7.7.2018 at 2:56 PM, John Cuthber said:

After flicking through 4 pages of this thread I can't see anything that addresses a simple point.

I am in my natural habitat already.

I'm a human, on Earth.

That deserves credit; sasa ke beratna imalowda toda tumang

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On 7/13/2018 at 7:39 AM, zapatos said:

Explain how taking a horse from Michigan to Texas is easier than taking a plane, train, or bus.

Because in civilization collapse it would be difficult to attain fuel. It's not easier but it might be all you have.

On 7/13/2018 at 7:21 AM, dimreepr said:

You're cherry picking in order to support your unsupportable OP. Migration happens for two basic reasons, lack of food/money/prospects or excess of food/money/desire. 

What am I cherry picking? Do you realize that it's not uncommon to see people migrate for health benefits in today's world? As much as it might scare you but yes, some white people do migrate north because they are not adapted to the southern climates, and some black people do migrate south for the same reason. I'm saying this type of relocation will be more common without modern civilization.

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8 hours ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

some white people do migrate north because they are not adapted to the southern climates, and some black people do migrate south for the same reason. I'm saying this type of relocation will be more common without modern civilization.

Most don't.

In the event of a collapse of civilisation, the risk of skin cancer or rickets would be pretty low down the list of problems people face. It wouldn't be enough to drive anyone to migrate.

I have white  skin, but if I was "one of the few survivors", I'd move South. It's warmer and easier to farm with a longer growing season.

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On 6/22/2018 at 5:43 PM, Unitive_Mystic said:

So I have been studying evolution and seeing how people from different parts of the world adapt to their enviroment. So the data I have gathered so far is that humans with a darker skin tone gives them the advantage in areas closer to the equator, people with lighter skin tone are adapted to lower light levels further away from the equator. Here is the further information.

"Surprisingly, the team found no immune genes under intense selection, which is counter to hypotheses that diseases would have increased after the development of agriculture.

The paper doesn’t specify why these genes might have been under such strong selection. But the likely explanation for the pigmentation genes is to maximize vitamin D synthesis, said paleoanthropologist Nina Jablonski of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State), University Park, as she looked at the poster’s results at the meeting. People living in northern latitudes often don’t get enough UV to synthesize vitamin D in their skin so natural selection has favored two genetic solutions to that problem—evolving pale skin that absorbs UV more efficiently or favoring lactose tolerance to be able to digest the sugars and vitamin D naturally found in milk. “What we thought was a fairly simple picture of the emergence of depigmented skin in Europe is an exciting patchwork of selection as populations disperse into northern latitudes,” Jablonski says. “This data is fun because it shows how much recent evolution has taken place.”

Anthropological geneticist George Perry, also of Penn State, notes that the work reveals how an individual’s genetic potential is shaped by their diet and adaptation to their habitat. “We’re getting a much more detailed picture now of how selection works.”

That being said, in today's modern day civilization we have the technology to help us live outside our natural habitat (sunscreen, sunglasses, skin cancer treatment). If civilization falls we won't have access to this equipment, sunglasses break and sunscreen expires. Where will people of different races go? Will Caucasian and Europeans move up north as well as Afircans and Mexicans move down south? Will they move at all? If not, how will they live outside their natural habitat without modern conveniences.

I was recently regarding about diets and came across some information which related to this thread. Lighter skin developed much more recently than previously assumed. The theory that lighter skin developed due to lower UV levels in northern latitudes is being reconsidered. Humans lived in Europe for ten of thousands of years prior to the emergence of lighter skin. Dietary changes and not UV levels may have been the cause. Also it appears that the lighting in skin between European and Asians are driven by different genes and developed at different periods independently from each other for different reasons. It is a bit of a read but the NCBI overview linked below explains it in greater detail. 

Quote

 

The dark skin in modern humans was established around 1.2 million years ago, driven by the loss of body hair after divergence from apes, presumably to protect against UV-induced damages [13, 93–96]. Then, when did modern Eurasians start to depigment? The studies on skin color adaptation summarized above are based on modern population genetic data, which may suffer from limited temporal resolution caused by the population demographic history, and insensitivity to selection acting on standing variations [97]. The advent of ancient DNA analyses makes it possible to directly observe the evolution processes, and thus would facilitate our understanding of this key question.

A study on the genomes of Anatolian Neolithic farmers in West Eurasia (6500–300 BC), who are probably the source population of the first European farmers, suggests that the light skin color has been evolved since at least 6500–4000 years ago [98]. Several popular genes identified in modern Eurasians, e.g., SLC45A2, GRM5 and HERC2/OCA2 showed strong signal of selection in these ancient samples. This conclusion is supported by another study based on the Eneolithic (6500–5000 BP) and Bronze Age (5000–4000 BP) samples, representing the early European farmers or late hunter-gatherers in central Europe [99]. One possible motivation of the skin depigmentation in prehistoric Eurasia is agriculturalization, which led to a switch from vitamin D-rich hunter-gatherer diet to a vitamin D-poor agriculturalist diet, together with the increased danger of folic acid deficiency at higher latitudes [14, 100]. Moreover, the selective pressures have kept operating for a long time after they initiated the adaptation of skin color, as some ancestral pigmentations alleles were identified in a Mesolithic European (7000 BP), and some adaptive alleles under selection in the ancient Eurasians are still evolving in modern humans [98, 99, 101].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5502412/

 

So it is is true that diet and not UV levels is the driver of lighter pigmentation than assumptions in the OP about "natural environments" are inaccurate. As has been predominately the case throughout human history people would go to where ever the food is and not where ever they is the most sun light and adapt accordingly.   

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I still can't get over the fact that this has gotten to four pages under the basic assumption that folks would migrate according to some difficult to assess benefits (i.e. UV radiation) over the most obvious concerns after societal collapse.

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