Ten oz

Why doesn't truth matter & middle ground

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"The Trump administration released a dire scientific report Friday calling human activity the dominant driver of global warming, a conclusion at odds with White House decisions to withdraw from a key international climate accord, champion fossil fuels and reverse Obama-era climate policies."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/11/03/trump-administration-releases-report-finds-no-convincing-alternative-explanation-for-climate-change/?utm_term=.da10d08a57ef

" Since 1980, the cost of extreme events for the United States has exceeded $1.1 trillion; therefore, better understanding of the frequency and severity of these events in the context of a changing climate is warranted. "

https://science2017.globalchange.gov/chapter/executive-summary/

 

I started with climate change because it is one of the most black and white examples of what appears to be a troubling trend in U.S. politics where the truth doesn't matter even when it is unambiguously known. The President and his picks to head the Environmental Protection Agency and Dept. of Energy are climate change deniers. The President's picks to head the National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration both hedge on the issue saying humans have an effect on the climate but the degree isn't understood. Yet these Agencies and the gov't broadly puts out unequivocal heavily peer reviewed work idicating that claimte change we are experiencing is absolutely man made. The President and his administration openly deny the work of thier own agencies. Trump himself does this often with other examples including but not being limited to him insisting crime is at an all time high while the FBI and DOJ stats prove oftherwise, illegal immigration increased during Obama's terms despite CBP and USCIS stats prove otherwise, tax cuts will pay for themselve despite the CBO assessment statingthe opposite, and etc.This of course if not limited to Trump. Many politicians flat out ignore known facts in favor are arguing their preference.

I see many smart people argue that compromise and middle ground is critical in our current divisive political climate. I fear it is false pragmatism. Being pragmatic doesn't merely mean compromising; it means to soberly assess truth and practical applications. I don't see a pragmatic middle ground to be reached with those who disavow the truth. So my question is two part: why doesn't truth matter and can there be middle ground with truth deniers? I understand that there can be honest disagreements about the best way to address issues. Smart people can have different priorities with regards taxes, healthcare, climate, criminal justice system, and etc. That isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about provable facts which not only get ignored but are straight up denied.

 

 

 

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We've got to recognise our own limits before we criticise others, in other words, "what is your price?"; can we all honestly say "you can't bribe me?".  

We all have our line in the sand, but if someone offers you power and privilege without crossing that line, why wouldn't you?

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C'mon, they are deniers because they're ignorant..

See their age- they are 70-80+ years old grandpas.

They don't understand anything from the modern world.

Times when the wisest and the most knowledgeable people in the village are grandpas and grandmas, are long time gone.

 

Regardless, climate change is human-made, or it's f.e. natural increase of power of the Sun (when it'll be turning to red giant and burning Helium-4 more extensively), it's in the best human interest to "do something", and f.e. prevent higher radiation of the Sun by placing mirrors in the cosmic space between the Sun and Earth, to decrease radiation.. and being able to remotely control it when needed.. Without such devices this planet will vaporize and sterilize from living organisms much more quicker..

 

I would split deniers to "denying human-made climate change but accepting climate change" and "denying any climate change".

 

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6 minutes ago, Sensei said:

C'mon, they are deniers because they're ignorant..

See their age- they are 70-80+ years old grandpas.".

 

All who deny climate change are not old and all have access to the truth. Particularly those running agencies doing the research. 

This isn't limited to climate change though. It exists in nearly every Political discussion in the U.S.. We don't debate policy anymore; we debate reality. It makes finding common ground next to impossible. 

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

We've got to recognise our own limits before we criticise others, in other words, "what is your price?"; can we all honestly say "you can't bribe me?".  

We all have our line in the sand, but if someone offers you power and privilege without crossing that line, why wouldn't you?

Philosophically you have a point but I don't see it as applicable here. The millions of people out there denying the truth are getting nothing in return for it. 

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BTW, just a thought, quite cynical to be honest, natural disasters such as hurricanes, flooding, fire, etc. are one of the best things businessman-real estate developer can dream about.. Constant flood of orders every year for rebuilding ruined houses and buildings, especially interesting if paid by government..

 

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2 minutes ago, Sensei said:

BTW, just a thought, quite cynical to be honest, natural disasters such as hurricanes, flooding, fire, etc. are one of the best things businessman-real estate developer can dream about.. Constant flood of orders every year for rebuilding ruined houses and buildings, especially interesting if paid by government..

 

This may explain why the top 1% deny truth but not all the other 10 of millions who do. It isn't just stupidity either. There are educated people on this site who work in engineering fields that buy into various denials about things which are known to be true.

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1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

What about the 2nd part; how do we find middle ground?

It seems to me that the 2 major parties are far part as they have been in sometime. Culture warfare has replace legitimate policy disputes. it is John F. Kennedy who coined "a rising tide lifts all boats" is championing tax cuts. There use to be a lot of overlap betweens parties and a lot of things everyone agreed on. Everyone had the same truth. Today parties are defined by different truths. By today's strandards Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford and Bush 41 were all Democrats:

Eisenhower - Pro NATO, Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 was billions in govt infastructure spending, supported the Civil Rights Act of 57' & 60', placed National Guard members unnder federal control to enforce Brown vsthe board of education, made Earl Warren the Chief Justice of the supreme court, made HI a state, and coined "military industrial complex".

Nixon - Pro China, sought Vietnam withdraw, created the EPA, supported the Clean Air Act of 1970, supported the Philadelphia plan (affirmitive action),  and expanded medicare in 72'.

Ford - endoresedan Amnesty program for those who had refuse to fight in Vietnam, WIN program sought tax increases to combat inflation, signed the Education For All Handicapped Children Act, and was openly pro choice.

Bush 43 - Raised taxes, endorsed the Americans with Disabilities Act, reauthorized the Clean Air Act, increased legal immigration by 40%, resigned his NRA membership, pro NATO, and signed the Strategic Arms Reduction, Treaty.

 

 

 

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America lost track of the political middle ground some years ago.

They only have a Right party and a Further Right party.

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15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

America lost track of the political middle ground some years ago.

They only have a Right party and a Further Right party.

England is in a similar position currently or at least tracking  that direction?

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20 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

England is in a similar position currently or at least tracking  that direction?

UK Labour party's leader is distinctly left. The current government doesn't have a majority, so they have to consider and accommodate the other side. I'd say since Tony Blair, who was more to the right, the overall balance is to the left... in British terms.

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20 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Philosophically you have a point but I don't see it as applicable here. The millions of people out there denying the truth are getting nothing in return for it. 

 

 

They get to keep their house, car and three squares a day (mostly) and they're doing that because their line in the sand is skewed by the fear mongering overlords.  

The middle ground is a luxury and requires wealth, not an ever-diminishing bank balance.

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2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

 

They get to keep their house, car and three squares a day (mostly) and they're doing that because their line in the sand is skewed by the fear mongering overlords.  

The middle ground is a luxury and requires wealth, not an ever-diminishing bank balance.

I don't follow. Many of the people in this country who vote against the truth are poor.

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8 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

UK Labour party's leader is distinctly left. The current government doesn't have a majority, so they have to consider and accommodate the other side. I'd say since Tony Blair, who was more to the right, the overall balance is to the left... in British terms.

But notably not the middle ground, people may look to the left in a last-ditch effort to stave off the same fear but the root cause remains the same.

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2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

 

They get to keep their house, car and three squares a day (mostly) and they're doing that because their line in the sand is skewed by the fear mongering overlords.  

The middle ground is a luxury and requires wealth, not an ever-diminishing bank balance.

I don't follow. Many of the people in this country who vote against the truth are poor.

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2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I don't follow. Many of the people in this country who vote against the truth are poor.

Poor is a relative term, the car may be a wreck and the house a trailer and the three squares are from a food bank but they still fear the loss.

And how many homeless people get to or bother to vote?

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29 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

UK Labour party's leader is distinctly left. The current government doesn't have a majority, so they have to consider and accommodate the other side. I'd say since Tony Blair, who was more to the right, the overall balance is to the left... in British terms.

The Tory govt came in with a promise to axe public services, and they did   it.
They are currently working to destabilise the NHS.

They are, unequivocally a Right wing government.

 

 

On the other hand, they have done quite a good job of portraying themselves as "moderates" and MrCorbyn as "loony Left".

Edited by John Cuthber

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21 hours ago, Sensei said:

C'mon, they are deniers because they're ignorant..

No, that's not it, at least for a certain group of people. The knowledge deficit model has been shown to be wrong. The science is rejected because an ideology is in place that can't be supplanted by facts.

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8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Poor is a relative term, the car may be a wreck and the house a trailer and the three squares are from a food bank but they still fear the loss.

And how many homeless people get to or bother to vote?

So you think people who deny truth do so out of fear of losing what they have? It is possible but if the case finding middle ground should be very easy considering recognition of the truth leads to better decision making and outcomes.

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

No, that's not it, at least for a certain group of people. The knowledge deficit model has been shown to be wrong. The science is rejected because an ideology is in place that can't be supplanted by facts.

True. 

They may not be ignorant in terms of education and experience but ultimately supporting an ideology which is counter productive to ones goals is ignorant. It isn't done out of ignorance though.

No one is really taking on the second part of the question; can/should middle ground be reached with those who deny the truth? Something has to give.

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18 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 It is possible but if the case finding middle ground should be very easy considering recognition of the truth leads to better decision making and outcomes.

 

But that depends on a good education and that has been denied to the poor, successively, as the bank balance is denuded.

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29 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

The Tory govt came in with a promise to axe public services, and they did   it.
They are currently working to destabilise the NHS.

They are, unequivocally a Right wing government.

 

 

On the other hand, they have done quite a good job of portraying themselves as "moderates" and MrCorbyn as "loony Left".

I suppose, what I meant was the overall balance of influence is shifting Left, even though the current government is Right. the government is fairly restricted in being able to pursue it's desired agenda. The election result was a good one, I think, in the current climate.

Edited by StringJunky

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1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

can/should middle ground be reached with those who deny the truth?

Unfortunately, there is no middle ground between truth and untruth. It’s a binary state.

The question we’re trying to answer here is how best to convince others when facts are dismissed, and in parallel how best to avoid dismissing the people who do so.

It’s a complex problem that could potentially be helped by tying issues to the deniers personal interests, the well-being of their family, their paycheck and ability to have security, food, and shelter. 

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On 11/5/2017 at 8:15 AM, Ten oz said:

So you think people who deny truth do so out of fear of losing what they have?

Yes I do and what kind of truth we are talking about defines what kind of fear. Since you started with climate change I will go with that for the moment. 

If we replace all the coal plants with solar panels there would be disruptions and some pain felt by both of us I am sure. But when that has passed I think we would be really happy with the results and agree it was well worth the price. 

I repair equipment used to produce porcelain tile and I am very good at it but my skills are a lot more specialized than you might think. I couldn't quit here today and go have success doing the same thing in a coal plant and visa versa.

What about the 50 year old man who has spent his whole life gaining a better understanding of the process of burning coal to produce steam to spin the turbines that produce the electricity? You may think that this guy can learn new skills but he dosent. He feels that if you are correct about climate change  his way of life is over either way. So it's easier just to lie to yourself and when you are backed up the Trumps of the world it gets even easier. 

About 30 years ago cod fishers were in the same boat. They knew what was happening but they couldn't figure out what to do so they just lied to themselves until they went out one day and there was no cod left.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery

Quote

Observations on the reduced number and size of cod, and concerns of fishermen and amateur marine biologists[6] was offered, but generally ignored in favour of the uncertain science and harmful federal policies of Canada's Department of Fisheries and Oceans until the undeniable complete collapse of the fishery. According to any reasonable analysis, the collapse was first due to massive overfishing. 

This is what we are up against and it dosent help when all the workers in the oil, gas and coal industries look up see Gore and Pelosi and other champions of climate change maintaining many large houses and flying around the country in private jets.

If you want to find middle ground with these people and change the debate from "is it happening" to "what are we going to do". As it should be.

1. Convince those who wish to campaign for clean renewable energy to reduce thier carbon footprint that of an average middle-class household. If they won't denounce them loudly and often and don't vote for them.

2. Give the workers alternatives to what they are doing now and make them good ones. So much time is spent on the dire consequences of global warming that none is left to discuss what we are going to do with those displaced.

On 11/4/2017 at 11:41 AM, Sensei said:

C'mon, they are deniers because they're ignorant..

See their age- they are 70-80+ years old grandpas.

They don't understand anything from the modern world.

Times when the wisest and the most knowledgeable people in the village are grandpas and grandmas, are long time gone.

 

So my 78 year old dad was lying when were discussing this the other day?

Elders take action on climate change

http://www.eldersclimateaction.org/

http://100grannies.org/past-events/grandparents-climate-action-day/

20171106_142549.thumb.png.2d18d1d552c6fcdac099539ad63d39f2.png

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You took my post personally..

 

Knowledge gained in the school of statistical person is decreasing after leaving school (but life experience is increasing, and knowledge/experience in the area he/she is working for living is increasing).

Just percent of people (scientists, intellectualists etc. unique personalities) are trying keep up to date with current knowledge of human kind.

Their children, and grandchild,  are learning new, modern things. Majority of people, the peak of their knowledge they have in school.

Well, make a test. Get modern school books (physics, chemistry, biology etc.), and read them. Make tests they contain, to check how much do you still know and remember from them. Test knowledge from books on your dad, and grandpas, giving them questions from books..

Edited by Sensei

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