John Cuthber Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Besides which there are many studies that backs up a sense of fairness being innate, I've yet to find any studies on contentment. You won't find studies on whether passing urine is innate either- for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) You won't find studies on whether passing urine is innate either- for the same reason. Because you're taking the piss? You continue to evade posting evidence, are you our resident expert troll? Edited March 31, 2017 by dimreepr -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 How do you know they aren't having a nightmare or sleeping fitfully (not so content)? it is usually pretty clear if they are. But that doesn't mean that same baby is content (if it was) when conscious, which after all is my point about my observations of the general contentment of others, I've questioned many (into the hundreds) friends and acquaintances (over the years), only one or two said they were; not evidence but it does support my hypothesis, especially without counter-evidence. Apart from just being anecdotal, all that says is that some people are not content very often. It doesn't imply contentment is learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Apart from just being anecdotal, all that says is that some people are not content very often. It doesn't imply contentment is learned. But it does imply contentment isn't innate. it is usually pretty clear if they are. Really, did you ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 But it does imply contentment isn't innate. Not really, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Because you're taking the piss? You continue to evade posting evidence, are you our resident expert troll? I keep restating the evidence; you keep pretending it does not exist (and the other posts are supporting me, but not you). Who's the troll? For the record, babies have a very well documented system for informing anyone and everyone when they are not content- and it doesn't involve sleeping (anyone sleeping- that is). So, the real world knows that contentment isn't learned. So it isn't learned from the Bible. So you were wrong when you said "It's also because I've already answered your question, in post #18; the bible is designed to teach contentment,". Why not just admit it? Really, did you ask? Babies do not wait to be asked before informing you of their discontent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Babies do not wait to be asked before informing you of their discontent. But they do wake up first, or at least simultaneously. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvYU8O-k3Wo&t=6989s The introduction (the first 3 minutes) sums up my position nicely. Edited April 1, 2017 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itoero Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 Evidence please.I don't have anything what you consider to be evidence. This is common sense. Good treatment leads to contentment. The study of this 'relationship' leads to morality/good behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 But they do wake up first, or at least simultaneously. The introduction (the first 3 minutes) sums up my position nicely. The discontent happens first, and is what wakes them. It doesn't matter that you are wrong about that- because you were already wrong about people needing to be taught contentment. From the HHGTTG quote I take it (since you aren't a girl from Herts) you are an ignorant earth man who doesn't have any idea how to sort things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonDie Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 You can make the argument that moral knowledge is actually knowledge of better versus worse. If the moral option is the better option, then any all-knowing being would recognize it as the better option and therefore choose it. Does anybody's happiness matter more than anybody else's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 The discontent happens first, and is what wakes them. It doesn't matter that you are wrong about that- because you were already wrong about people needing to be taught contentment. I applaud the tangent you chose to avoid my request for evidence that "contentment is innate"; after all who can tell if an unconscious body is content or not? From the HHGTTG quote I take it (since you aren't a girl from Herts) Who knows, maybe... you are an ignorant earth man who doesn't have any idea how to sort things out. I'm happy with that... Are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I applaud the tangent you chose to avoid my request for evidence that "contentment is innate"; after all who can tell if an unconscious body is content or not? Most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Most people. Do you 'really' consider that, evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Do you 'really' consider that, evidence? Why not? Most people (apart from you and, perhaps, psychopaths and people with autism) can easily tell if a baby (sleeping or awake) or animal is content or not. (And why the quotes around "really"?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Why not? Most people (apart from you and, perhaps, psychopaths and people with autism) can easily tell if a baby (sleeping or awake) or animal is content or not. (And why the quotes around "really"?) I guess I'm the psychopath as I don't believe I'm autistic. How dose one experience happiness or peacefulness (or other emotions) when sleeping? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it certainly doesn't seem obvious to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 How dose one experience happiness or peacefulness (or other emotions) when sleeping? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it certainly doesn't seem obvious to me. Babies can be obviously content when they are awake. If they are sleeping peacefully, then they are probably content. If they are screaming in pain or having a nightmare, then probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Babies can be obviously content when they are awake. If they are sleeping peacefully, then they are probably content. If they are screaming in pain or having a nightmare, then probably not. Do babies always have outward signs that can be read if they are having a nightmare or a peaceful night's sleep? Do babies have nightmares while sleeping in what may appear to be a 'peaceful' state? If a baby has an outward sign such as jerky movements or making noises, is that an indication of discontent (nightmare) or content (dreaming of trying to latch onto their mother's breast)? If a baby is asleep and not dreaming, can they really be classified as content? If they are experiencing no emotions, then it seems they are only content in the way a rock is content. Don't mean to take this off topic, it just seems interesting to me and I'm not sure I understand how one can claim a sleeping baby is content without specific studies and evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) Do babies always have outward signs that can be read if they are having a nightmare or a peaceful night's sleep? Did I say "always"? I understand how one can claim a sleeping baby is content without specific studies and evidence. Babies (and animals ... and adults) can be content when they are awake. The important point is they don't have to learn this. Edited April 4, 2017 by Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) Did I say "always"? Did I say you said "always"? Never mind. Your response tells me what I need to know about your claim that most people can easily tell if a sleeping baby is content or not. Edited April 4, 2017 by zapatos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I applaud the tangent you chose to avoid my request for evidence that "contentment is innate"; after all who can tell if an unconscious body is content or not? Anyone who realises that, were they discontent, they would wake up. Newborn babies can demonstrate contentment, without having been taught it. So it's not innate. I keep presenting evidence but you don't understand it. Plenty of others do- so what's your problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Did I say you said "always"? No. But you introduced the word. Never mind. Your response tells me what I need to know about your claim that most people can easily tell if a sleeping baby is content or not. I don't know who introduced the "sleeping" bit. But it is usually easy to tell is a baby or an animal is content (feel free to add "only when they are awake" if you insist). Therefore it doesn't appear to be a learned thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 No. But you introduced the word.As you knew that why did you ask me if you were the one who said it? Since your statement did not include any qualifiers (rarely, sometimes, frequently, always) I just thought I'd ask. Didn't foresee that you might object to me trying to better understand your claim. A simple 'yes' or 'no' response to my question would have sufficed. I don't know who introduced the "sleeping" bit. But it is usually easy to tell is a baby or an animal is content...Yes, I should have just accepted what you said and left it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itoero Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 My dog often makes noise while he's sleeping. It's pretty clears she dreams. I think every animal that can store knowledge and can conscious use that knowledge can dream. It's imo impossible to make valid assumptions concerning the state of mind while unconscious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 My dog often makes noise while he's sleeping. It's pretty clears she dreams. I think every animal that can store knowledge and can conscious use that knowledge can dream. It's imo impossible to make valid assumptions concerning the state of mind while unconscious. So it is impossible to assume your dog is dreaming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Anyone who realises that, were they discontent, they would wake up. Are you suggesting the unconscious mind has an influence over the conscious one? why? I keep presenting evidence but you don't understand it. When did you present evidence? So far, all you've done is present assertions. Plenty of others do- so what's your problem? The problem is, it's a logical fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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