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Reasoning and elevated thought is the domain of the white man?

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It seems to me that the world is run by old white European guys for other white European guys and their descendants. European philosophy dominates the philosophical world, Eastern philosophy resides in a handful of books- Tao Te Ching, Analects, Buddhist teachings, the Vedas... Where is the equality of fair play? Why are European philosophical prognostications more valuable than this of the East? Or have white men so dominated the fields of academia that white domination over thought is seen as normative behaviour in a white dominated society and socio economic system? Can this paradigm ever be shifted?

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It seems to me that the world is run by old white European guys for other white European guys and their descendants. European philosophy dominates the philosophical world, Eastern philosophy resides in a handful of books- Tao Te Ching, Analects, Buddhist teachings, the Vedas... Where is the equality of fair play? Why are European philosophical prognostications more valuable than this of the East? Or have white men so dominated the fields of academia that white domination over thought is seen as normative behaviour in a white dominated society and socio economic system? Can this paradigm ever be shifted?

 

 

Could it be because science and technology work and mysticism does not?

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Could it be because science and technology work and mysticism does not?

He's not talking about that though; he's talking about philosophical approaches.

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He's not talking about that though; he's talking about philosophical approaches.

 

 

So am I, the west has a more evidence based philosophy, the east is more mystical... The difference is that while they have been civilized longer than we have but we adopted a more factual evidence based methodology...

Edited by Moontanman

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It seems to me that the world is run by old white European guys for other white European guys and their descendants. European philosophy dominates the philosophical world, Eastern philosophy resides in a handful of books- Tao Te Ching, Analects, Buddhist teachings, the Vedas... Where is the equality of fair play? Why are European philosophical prognostications more valuable than this of the East? Or have white men so dominated the fields of academia that white domination over thought is seen as normative behaviour in a white dominated society and socio economic system? Can this paradigm ever be shifted?

It shifts all the time, slowly. When Alexander conquered the world, philosophy by Europeans was insignificant. I think you are looking through European tented glasses because Europeans and their descendents in the Americas won some big wars and wrote a lot of history in the past few centuries. Not only is change inevitable and unpredictable in many ways; change is occurring now very rapidly and accelerating.

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Oriental philosophy of the East is still in one way or the other exists. Max Mueller was the first European who dig up the classical teachings of the Aryans in the Vedic Age.

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So am I, the west has a more evidence based philosophy, the east is more mystical...

 

Evidence based philosophy is called science.

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It seems to me that the world is run by old white European guys for other white European guys and their descendants. European philosophy dominates the philosophical world, Eastern philosophy resides in a handful of books- Tao Te Ching, Analects, Buddhist teachings, the Vedas... Where is the equality of fair play? Why are European philosophical prognostications more valuable than this of the East? Or have white men so dominated the fields of academia that white domination over thought is seen as normative behaviour in a white dominated society and socio economic system? Can this paradigm ever be shifted?

 

 

I'm not sure it is true. There are many Western philosophers who have studied and incorporated various philosophical ideas from the East. Schopenhaur found a lot of inspiration in the Vedas and Buddhism. I gather he kept a copy of the Upanishads by his bed and read from it every night.

 

Plus, among the public generally, I would think that Eastern ideas have more currency than those of Western philosophers.

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I am referring to philosophical domination of the West. In my opinion, Science did not enter the thought of Aristotle, Plato or more recent philosophers such as Spinoza or Kant. Reason was thought to be the medium through which factual knowledge could be reached by the human mind.

 

My O.P. came from examining the inadequate education systems we have in the UK, where it is OK to fail 40% of the children in a school. An academically challenging and recall-based curriculum has destroyed the confidence of those children labelled as "slow" learners. The system seems to have been designed by old farts who graduated from Cambridge and Oxford and who decided that this was the best way to learn for children across the socio-economic spectrum. It is wrong!

 

As an extension to these thoughts, I stand to be corrected in what I have opined in the OP. Our entire social system has been designed in a Eurocentric manner and our system of reasoning and what is reasonable has been derived from the same system of thought. Old white guys have designed a system for other Europeans (females slipped the net somehow).

 

In the West, we have a system of reasoning which applauds know-how and in Medicine, the patient's body becomes a battleground between the disease and the doctor in a war of attrition. An alternative approach would be to use Eastern understandings of energy circulation (not mumbo-jumbo but insight). Energy can be applied to the brain, for example, in the form of transcranial ultrasound which can alleviate psychological disorders and "reset" the brain. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/content/transcranial-ultrasound-0 Ultrasound is a form of energy that resets energy patterns in the brain.

 

Scientific thought, which represents an objective truth becomes moulded to society which is simply not suitable for a scientific experiment. Basically, the role of a society is for every citizen to achieve their potential, not for a multi-racial, multi-faith society to mould itself to a racial paradigm. Moontanman, Science cannot be applied to the overall goal of a society which should be to make the citizen happy to live in a State.

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Evidence based philosophy is called science.

 

 

Yes, that would be my point... Once the west put aside mysticism and went for science the west blossomed. The mystics continued to stagnate. It's a matter of what works and what does not...

I am referring to philosophical domination of the West. In my opinion, Science did not enter the thought of Aristotle, Plato or more recent philosophers such as Spinoza or Kant. Reason was thought to be the medium through which factual knowledge could be reached by the human mind.

 

My O.P. came from examining the inadequate education systems we have in the UK, where it is OK to fail 40% of the children in a school. An academically challenging and recall-based curriculum has destroyed the confidence of those children labelled as "slow" learners. The system seems to have been designed by old farts who graduated from Cambridge and Oxford and who decided that this was the best way to learn for children across the socio-economic spectrum. It is wrong!

 

As an extension to these thoughts, I stand to be corrected in what I have opined in the OP. Our entire social system has been designed in a Eurocentric manner and our system of reasoning and what is reasonable has been derived from the same system of thought. Old white guys have designed a system for other Europeans (females slipped the net somehow).

 

In the West, we have a system of reasoning which applauds know-how and in Medicine, the patient's body becomes a battleground between the disease and the doctor in a war of attrition. An alternative approach would be to use Eastern understandings of energy circulation (not mumbo-jumbo but insight). Energy can be applied to the brain, for example, in the form of transcranial ultrasound which can alleviate psychological disorders and "reset" the brain. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/content/transcranial-ultrasound-0 Ultrasound is a form of energy that resets energy patterns in the brain.

 

Scientific thought, which represents an objective truth becomes moulded to society which is simply not suitable for a scientific experiment. Basically, the role of a society is for every citizen to achieve their potential, not for a multi-racial, multi-faith society to mould itself to a racial paradigm. Moontanman, Science cannot be applied to the overall goal of a society which should be to make the citizen happy to live in a State.

 

 

I disagree, name something based on mysticism that works. Energy as described in eastern philosophy is nonsense and has no basis in reality. Energy as you describe being used on the brain is not mysticism, it is evidence based, no mystic ever discovered ultrasound or used it.

 

Saying that western methodology is based on white men is not what is going on. Men have dominated philosophy in both the east and west, The western ideas simply worked, women are far more likely to have rights in western areas than areas run on mysticism...

Edited by Moontanman

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Yes, that would be my point... Once the west put aside mysticism and went for science the west blossomed. The mystics continued to stagnate. It's a matter of what works and what does not...

 

 

When we consider this question through the prism of need ie. Maslow's hierarchy the answer is clear, wealth enables thought beyond need. What you call mysticism is just outdated, but that doesn't make it dismiss-able, sure empiricism provides what we think of as answers, but does it improve your life, or indeed provide actual answers?

 

Humans have a terrible quandary, does intelligence provide answers or questions?

Edited by dimreepr

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Yes, that would be my point... Once the west put aside mysticism and went for science the west blossomed. The mystics continued to stagnate. It's a matter of what works and what does not...

 

 

I disagree, name something based on mysticism that works. Energy as described in eastern philosophy is nonsense and has no basis in reality. Energy as you describe being used on the brain is not mysticism, it is evidence based, no mystic ever discovered ultrasound or used it.

 

Saying that western methodology is based on white men is not what is going on. Men have dominated philosophy in both the east and west, The western ideas simply worked, women are far more likely to have rights in western areas than areas run on mysticism...

 

Respectfully, I disagree with you in turn, my friend. As dimreepr hinted, progress in the West prospered not to the scientific method but because of colonialism. The Berlin Conference of 1884 gathered together world leaders for one aim only - to exploit Africa for natural mineral resources and to divide the continent amicably amongst the European nations who met at the Conference. This cynical act has kept Africans poor and undeveloped to this day http://cabinda.net/Berlin_Conference.htm . Exploitation of the resources of "inferior" nations gave us the British Empire in its glory. Although we gave rights to other nations, we still exploited them. The shame of the British Empire came in the form of the slave trade which did lead to fortunes being made in America. http://teachingushistory.org/lessons/col_his_bg_notes.html. The financial profits of colonialisation led to the building of Institutions in the European countries. Although the Industrial Revolutions used the scientific method, the working classes were exploited at a level which was evil. http://www.history.com/topics/industrial-revolution.

 

The claim that mysticism is nonsense is turned on its head by astonishing scientific evidence which has been recorded showing use of energy to heal brains. I quote from the original work for fear of misquoting the person who wrote the book:

 

 

For centuries it was believed that the price we paid for our brain’s complexity was that, compared with other organs, it was fixed and unregenerative—unable to recover mental abilities lost because of damage or disease. The Brain’s Way of Healing turns that belief on its head, as Doidge lucidly explains how the brain’s capacities are highly dynamic, and how its very sophistication makes possible a unique and gentle kind of healing. He describes natural, noninvasive avenues into the brain provided by the forms of energy around us—light, sound, vibration, movement—that can pass through our senses and our bodies to awaken the plastic brain’s own transformative capacities without surgery or medication and their unpleasant side effects or risks.

 

Using this more nuanced understanding of how our brains work, scientists and practitioners have learned how to use neuroplastic therapies to address many common conditions and to offer hope where prospects for healing were long denied. We see patients in whom years of chronic pain have been alleviated, and others who have recovered the ability not just to walk or talk but to live fully despite debilitating strokes, as well as cases of long-standing brain injuries cured or vastly improved. We meet children on the autistic spectrum or with learning disorders or attention deficit disorder who have used neuroplastic techniques to achieve normal lives, and sufferers who have seen symptoms of multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease, and cerebral palsy radically diminished. And we learn how to vastly reduce the risk of dementia, or improve the brain’s performance and health, with simple approaches anyone can use.

 

http://www.normandoidge.com/?page_id=1042.

 

I will let you respond to these points, and I still stand by the OP, until I get some evidence on cultures which still incorporate mysticism into their daily philosophy.

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Yes, that would be my point... Once the west put aside mysticism and went for science the west blossomed. The mystics continued to stagnate. It's a matter of what works and what does not...

 

Once the West put aside mysticism? You can still get homeopathy on the NHS in the UK.

 

Mysticism is but one part of Eastern philosophies, comparable to the Judeo-Christian mysticism still abundant in the West. I believe that the only difference in the West is that we came to tolerate people with other views (notwithstanding the Catholic church), allowing progress to be made.

 

 

European philosophy dominates the philosophical world, Eastern philosophy resides in a handful of books- Tao Te Ching, Analects, Buddhist teachings, the Vedas... Where is the equality of fair play?

 

How have you come to this conclusion anyway? It's fair enough to have a Eurocentric view on this as we are European, but to think this view dominates the world seems a stretch. I'm sure if you live in China for a while you'll start to believe Chinese philosophy dominates the world.

 

Also, we're not comparing like for like. Western philosophy is analytic and based on reason while Eastern philosophy blurs the line between religion and social contracts. Eastern philosophy is more akin to 'my philosophy on life is...', rather than analytic philosophy.

 

Btw, i believe Eastern philosophies have many things from which the West could learn, but energies and such isn't one of them. Scientists have that firmly covered.

Edited by Prometheus

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Respectfully, I disagree with you in turn, my friend. As dimreepr hinted, progress in the West prospered not to the scientific method but because of colonialism. The Berlin Conference of 1884 gathered together world leaders for one aim only - to exploit Africa for natural mineral resources and to divide the continent amicably amongst the European nations who met at the Conference. This cynical act has kept Africans poor and undeveloped to this day http://cabinda.net/Berlin_Conference.htm . Exploitation of the resources of "inferior" nations gave us the British Empire in its glory. Although we gave rights to other nations, we still exploited them. The shame of the British Empire came in the form of the slave trade which did lead to fortunes being made in America. http://teachingushistory.org/lessons/col_his_bg_notes.html. The financial profits of colonialisation led to the building of Institutions in the European countries. Although the Industrial Revolutions used the scientific method, the working classes were exploited at a level which was evil. http://www.history.com/topics/industrial-revolution.

 

The claim that mysticism is nonsense is turned on its head by astonishing scientific evidence which has been recorded showing use of energy to heal brains. I quote from the original work for fear of misquoting the person who wrote the book:

 

 

http://www.normandoidge.com/?page_id=1042.

 

I will let you respond to these points, and I still stand by the OP, until I get some evidence on cultures which still incorporate mysticism into their daily philosophy.

 

Noman Doige the huckster? There would seem to be a slight slant to his halo!

 

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2015/02/08/the-neuroplasticity-bait-and-switch/

 

http://mhconcierge.com/critical-review-of-some-of-the-more-extreme-claims-about-neuroplasticity/

 

 

The second book, “The Brain’s Way of Healing,” is by a Canadian, Norman Doidge, M.D. Dr. Doidge is described on his website as a “psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, researcher, author, essayist and poet.” His clinical and research background includes an interesting mix of scientific research and psychoanalytic therapy and he has received some prestigious awards for his contributions. Dr. Tallis discussed how Dr. Doidges’s book describes “how the brain can alter its own structure and function in response not only to environmental stimuli but also to mental activityand “clinics where miracle cures are seemingly an everyday occurrence, as patients are treated with light, sound or electrical therapy.

Dr. Tallis clearly is concerned about the claims in the book, writing, “Dr. Doidge’s pen portraits of patients facing neurological adversity with courage and determination, and of their charismatic healers, are disarming. Yet the reliance on anecdotes and testimonials, without much clinically and scientifically relevant detail, is exasperating.”He goes on to eviscerate Dr. Doidge’s references in support of his claims, and he conclude, “ It seemed reasonable to conclude that, while using what we currently know of neuroplasticity may deliver modest therapeutic advances, we need to learn much more about the brain before we can hope to regularly achieve the results that Dr. Doidge reports.

 

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_wishful_thinking_heal_your_brain

 

 

At face value, the therapeutic promise of neuroplasticity that Doidge describes is astounding. Chapter by chapter, he explains how we can apply light or electricity from outside or manipulate thoughts on the inside to treat chronic diseases, the kind that have been incurable or typically require heavy pharmacological or surgical intervention. It’s the kind of book that seems like a bull’s eye for many Greater Good readers.

But skeptical readers looking for good evidence must hunt for it amidst the narrative. Like a magician practicing redirection, Doidge distracts the reader from rather thin descriptions of the neuroscience with long-winded anecdotes. It left me wishing for just a good summary of the evidence, pro and con.

Visualization can reduce pain, according to Doidge; the motion of intense walking can heal Parkinson’s; and light treatment can heal tissue damage. He also states that electrical stimulation can improve symptoms of multiple sclerosis; Mozart and a mother’s voice can heal some forms of autism; and fine Feldenkrais movements improve cerebral palsy.

Doidge relies mainly upon near-miraculous anecdotes of recovery to support his claims. He also draws selectively from a sprinkling of clinical trials, peer-reviewed articles, and nascent research, especially at Harvard and Stanford; and he extrapolates from studies that support his general train of logic. He does season the book with a good dash of caution—every brain is unique, no two problems are the same, location of damage matters, injuries are different than chronic problems.

What he does not do, however, is present disconfirming or contradictory evidence. That—plus the fact that several of the treatments Doidge discusses are associated with businesses that in turn advertise his book—left me with less than complete trust in his analysis.

 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/medical-education/publications/reprints2009/2009-Psychologist-ReviewOfDoidge-BrainThatChangesItself.pdf

 

There are more...

I also take exception that only white men have benefited, Any color or gender or place where methodological naturalism replaces mysticism reaps the same rewards...

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Considering how many people believe the nightly news represents world accurately, or at least doesn't seriously question it as biased, is not entirely rational. Unfortunately, it seems like there are fewer rational people than not rational in the world. Even people who try to be rational aren't always. In general, I think more decisions are made emotionally than rationally for any democracy.

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Once the West put aside mysticism? You can still get homeopathy on the NHS in the UK.

 

Mysticism is but one part of Eastern philosophies, comparable to the Judeo-Christian mysticism still abundant in the West. I believe that the only difference in the West is that we came to tolerate people with other views (notwithstanding the Catholic church), allowing progress to be made.

 

 

 

How have you come to this conclusion anyway? It's fair enough to have a Eurocentric view on this as we are European, but to think this view dominates the world seems a stretch. I'm sure if you live in China for a while you'll start to believe Chinese philosophy dominates the world.

 

You are right to correct me here. I should have said that in the English-speaking world, the philosophical paradigms that are acceptable are Eurocentric.

 

Also, we're not comparing like for like. Western philosophy is analytic and based on reason while Eastern philosophy blurs the line between religion and social contracts. Eastern philosophy is more akin to 'my philosophy on life is...', rather than analytic philosophy.

 

Whilst I agree with the analytical and deductive nature of Western philosophy, who is to say who is right and who is wrong? Can you lead a life of value following Eastern philosophy? The answer is yes. Is it based on reason? If you read the Tao Te Ching and Analects, you will find many examples of sound reasoning. Did they answer basic human questions about our origins, our reasons for living on Earth and how we should live in harmony with others? Yes they did. Religion and reasoning about life are inter-related. However, the aims of Western philosophy are also highly conjectural and also reach a point where collective works are required from many contributors to make sense of the whole. Philosophy and sense-related deductions are a relatively recent addition to Western thought in the form of Natural Philosophy. Darwin's genius was in hypothesising the origins of species in Nature which Hegel was unable to explain.

 

 

Btw, i believe Eastern philosophies have many things from which the West could learn, but energies and such isn't one of them. Scientists have that firmly covered.

If you read Doidge's collections, some of which are in use clinically today, you w. ill understand that the use of energy is also scientifically documented

 

Noman Doige the huckster? There would seem to be a slight slant to his halo!

 

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2015/02/08/the-neuroplasticity-bait-and-switch/

 

http://mhconcierge.com/critical-review-of-some-of-the-more-extreme-claims-about-neuroplasticity/

 

 

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_wishful_thinking_heal_your_brain

 

 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/medical-education/publications/reprints2009/2009-Psychologist-ReviewOfDoidge-BrainThatChangesItself.pdf

 

There are more...

 

OK Moontanman, perhaps the cures were misused by Doidge to make the book more sexy and acceptable. However, at least two of the areas of brain science that he mentioned are certainly credible and scientifically documented. First, blind patients are able to see using their tongues https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/device-lets-blind-see-with-tongues/. That is as neuroplastic as you can get. Secondly, transcranial magnetic stimulation can be a non-invasive way to positively affect the brain using energy as well. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/brain_stimulation/tms/. so let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. If Doidge is a huckster, at least he is a huckster who tells some truth as well.

I also take exception that only white men have benefited, Any color or gender or place where methodological naturalism replaces mysticism reaps the same rewards...

I am not trying to annoy people, but I will say it like I see it, regardless of the consequences. The Eurocentrism started from a colonial exploitation par excellence in which my nation also took part. The proceeds paved the way for Scientific Institutions and the empirical method was used for the benefit of mankind. However, the same method cannot make you or I happy because mass scale experiments on humanity will come up with uncertain results. And thank God for that!

Considering how many people believe the nightly news represents world accurately, or at least doesn't seriously question it as biased, is not entirely rational. Unfortunately, it seems like there are fewer rational people than not rational in the world. Even people who try to be rational aren't always. In general, I think more decisions are made emotionally than rationally for any democracy.

Thank you for that injection of wisdom in the discussion.

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My O.P. came from examining the inadequate education systems we have in the UK, where it is OK to fail 40% of the children in a school. An academically challenging and recall-based curriculum has destroyed the confidence of those children labelled as "slow" learners.

 

 

It seems to me that much European education is about getting children to think for themselves and work out ways to solve problems. Chinese and Japanese education (in my experience) is much more driven by rote learning and repeating facts. (I often wonder if this is partly because that is what is required by the writing systems.)

 

 

 

An alternative approach would be to use Eastern understandings of energy circulation (not mumbo-jumbo but insight). Energy can be applied to the brain, for example, in the form of transcranial ultrasound which can alleviate psychological disorders and "reset" the brain. http://www.quantumco...al-ultrasound-0 Ultrasound is a form of energy that resets energy patterns in the brain.

 

It sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. Unless there is evidence that it works. But as soon as there is it becomes scientific.

 

As someone said: "You know what they call Alternative Medicine that works? Medicine."

 

 

 

Science cannot be applied to the overall goal of a society which should be to make the citizen happy to live in a State.

 

Why not? We can measure (in various ways) the happiness of the people. We can relate that to wealth, education, health, government policies, the number of parks, the weather, availability of cultural and spiritual activities and whatever else you want. That data can then be used to increase happiness of people in the sate. Bingo: the application of science!

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Thank you for that injection of wisdom in the discussion.

 

 

Jimmy, are you saying that bonafide science is somehow turned into mysticism because the word energy is used? All of the things you assert as being supportive of Eastern thought was discovered by science and has nothing in common with the way the word energy is used in eastern mysticism.

 

 

OK Moontanman, perhaps the cures were misused by Doidge to make the book more sexy and acceptable. However, at least two of the areas of brain science that he mentioned are certainly credible and scientifically documented. First, blind patients are able to see using their tongues https://www.scientif...e-with-tongues/. That is as neuroplastic as you can get. Secondly, transcranial magnetic stimulation can be a non-invasive way to positively affect the brain using energy as well. http://www.hopkinsme...timulation/tms/. so let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. If Doidge is a huckster, at least he is a huckster who tells some truth as well.

 

 

I am not even sure why you would think that real science ie "transcranial magnetic stimulation" " blind patients are able to see using their tongues" has anything to do with anything but scientific methodology. All Hucksters blend truth and nonsense together to make the latter appear more believable. Neural plasticity is well documented and was found by... wait for it... science, not eastern philosophy. I would really like you to point out a case where mysticism has directed us to any basis in reality. Mysticism often uses science terminology to pretend to be correct but so far all the stuff you mention is not part of any eastern anything. Just because mysticism uses words like energy to explain how thing like acupuncture or ground up dried seahorses work but it is no better than the technobabble used in star trek to give the illusion of science. Using science terminology to make nonsense seem real is not evidence that mysticism works.

 

 

 

I am not trying to annoy people, but I will say it like I see it, regardless of the consequences. The Eurocentrism started from a colonial exploitation par excellence in which my nation also took part. The proceeds paved the way for Scientific Institutions and the empirical method was used for the benefit of mankind. However, the same method cannot make you or I happy because mass scale experiments on humanity will come up with uncertain results. And thank God for that!

 

 

I am not really sure why you try to show that Euro-centrism is somehow only successful due to some bias perpetrated by white men in europe. Methodological Naturalism works no matter who you are, where you live, or what color your skin is. Mysticism does not work for anyone no matter where you are or what color you are. While being in power no doubt helped the west it did not make western mysticism correct and the pursuit of mysticism by any society only holds that society back. Western philosophical nonsense is still nonsense and still does not work...

 

I will ask again for an example of Eastern Philosophy that negates Methodological Naturalism, simply using "technobabble" to make it look sciency is not what I am asking about.

 

I am not really sure what you mean by Eastern Philosophy being able to make more people happy because it can be applied over large populations of mankind without their consent. I feel like happiness and the things that make us happy work better when it is actually real than when it is just a feeling...

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It seems to me that much European education is about getting children to think for themselves and work out ways to solve problems. Chinese and Japanese education (in my experience) is much more driven by rote learning and repeating facts. (I often wonder if this is partly because that is what is required by the writing systems.)

 

There is a problem-solving element, no doubt. However, much of the assessment depends on memorising facts albeit imperfectly. Chinese and Japanese students often excel in Universities because the summative assessment is in the form of testing memory and these students are capable of memorising huge tracts of information.

 

It sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. Unless there is evidence that it works. But as soon as there is it becomes scientific.

 

As someone said: "You know what they call Alternative Medicine that works? Medicine."

 

I gave the evidence for use of certain paradigm shifts in Medicine in my last post.

 

Why not? We can measure (in various ways) the happiness of the people. We can relate that to wealth, education, health, government policies, the number of parks, the weather, availability of cultural and spiritual activities and whatever else you want. That data can then be used to increase happiness of people in the sate. Bingo: the application of science!

 

It does not work that way due to the sheer heterogeneity of individuals in a society. For example, some sectors of a society may ask for more parks, others would wish to fund cancer wards, still others would wish to see humans colonise Mars.... There will always be a significant number of people who are unhappy and then we have to become utilitarian so the majority rules and the minorities feel missed out and disenfranchised. The experimental approach to democracy and making people happy in a democracy is not an absolute but a relative factor. Moreover , each experiment has to be repeatable and reproducible to be valid. Even if you are successful, could this technique work where elsewhere in more straitened circumstances? I don't know....

 

 

Jimmy, are you saying that bonafide science is somehow turned into mysticism because the word energy is used? All of the things you assert as being supportive of Eastern thought was discovered by science and has nothing in common with the way the word energy is used in eastern mysticism.

 

No, I was trying to say that Eastern philosophical thought about Chi or Prana were attempts to unify humans with Nature by considering the energy concept as flowing through humans. There was insight there about energy which has later become formalised and investigated empirically.

 

 

I am not even sure why you would think that real science ie "transcranial magnetic stimulation" " blind patients are able to see using their tongues" has anything to do with anything but scientific methodology. All Hucksters blend truth and nonsense together to make the latter appear more believable. Neural plasticity is well documented and was found by... wait for it... science, not eastern philosophy.

 

Neural plasticity was discovered by a paradigm shift from a consideration that the brain is the organ which reconstructs sensory information and not merely a passive recipient and interpreter of sensory input. It is scientific methodology which considers the flow of sensory information of any source to the brain in the form of energy. I thought that the Chinese and Indians knew about energy movement to the brain long before we did in the West but could not articulate what they knew in a way that is acceptable to the Western medical paradigm. The scientific method put this topic on an empirical platform, I agree, but, nevertheless, there had to be a paradigm shift.

 

I would really like you to point out a case where mysticism has directed us to any basis in reality. Mysticism often uses science terminology to pretend to be correct but so far all the stuff you mention is not part of any eastern anything. Just because mysticism uses words like energy to explain how thing like acupuncture or ground up dried seahorses work but it is no better than the technobabble used in star trek to give the illusion of science. Using science terminology to make nonsense seem real is not evidence that mysticism works.

 

At the moment, I have to agree,. There is no evidence of how chi or prana works. So it is babble at the present. Give it time until scientists seriously investigate it. Then, it could become mainstream.

 

I am not really sure why you try to show that Euro-centrism is somehow only successful due to some bias perpetrated by white men in europe. Methodological Naturalism works no matter who you are, where you live, or what color your skin is. Mysticism does not work for anyone no matter where you are or what color you are. While being in power no doubt helped the west it did not make western mysticism correct and the pursuit of mysticism by any society only holds that society back. Western philosophical nonsense is still nonsense and still does not work...

 

Our philosophical systems and reasoning are considered to be correct. Eastern philosophy ( I won't call it mysticism) is held to be quaint and not contestable to our reasoning and philosophy. Why? Colonialism, the Industrial revolution and the Enlightenment made us right, acceptable and incontestable. Sense-based empirical evidence is a materialist philosophy which cannot accept something that cannot be sensed such as chi or prana. Perhaps we lack the instrumentation which can detect such things but can we just dismiss them as nonsense when thousands, even hundreds of thousands have been cured or healed? Not by me. Our philosophy of life is based on the supremacy of class and race, I tell it like I see it.

 

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Our philosophical systems and reasoning are considered to be correct. Eastern philosophy ( I won't call it mysticism) is held to be quaint and not contestable to our reasoning and philosophy. Why? Colonialism, the Industrial revolution and the Enlightenment made us right, acceptable and incontestable. Sense-based empirical evidence is a materialist philosophy which cannot accept something that cannot be sensed such as chi or prana. Perhaps we lack the instrumentation which can detect such things but can we just dismiss them as nonsense when thousands, even hundreds of thousands have been cured or healed? Not by me. Our philosophy of life is based on the supremacy of class and race, I tell it like I see it.

 

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Seriously Jimmy, are you asserting that what amounts to nothing but faith healing is worthy of consideration just because it is claimed to be correct? Shouldn't this Eastern Philosophy work for anyone who uses it or do you have to be a Fakir to make it work?

 

Please tell us how a mystical philosophy heals people or has better results than methodological naturalism. You make the claim that hundreds of thousands have been cured, how do you know that if it can't be measured? Our philosophy of life, as I have said before, works for anyone who uses it. It is repeatable and falsifiable but more importantly it works and it works in a manner that can be used by anyone. Did mysticism wipe out smallpox? What has this mysticism cured? Does mysticism cure cancer? Is this Eastern Philosophy anything but "feelz"? Class and race do nothing, results is what counts.

 

Is it not interesting that these Eastern Philosophies have been around far longer than methodological naturalism and yet this Eastern Philosophy has done nothing but hold those societies back pretty much the same way that the west was held back until they started to use evidence based knowledge instead of mysticism to find out how the world works?

 

To quote AronRa "if you can't show it you don't know it"

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Shouldn't this Eastern Philosophy work for anyone who uses it or do you have to be a Fakir to make it work?

 

 

 

It does work for anyone and not because it's mystical; have you tried?

 

Please tell us how a mystical philosophy heals people or has better results than methodological naturalism.

 

 

It depends, what are you trying to heal?

Edited by dimreepr

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Seriously Jimmy, are you asserting that what amounts to nothing but faith healing is worthy of consideration just because it is claimed to be correct? Shouldn't this Eastern Philosophy work for anyone who uses it or do you have to be a Fakir to make it work?

 

Please tell us how a mystical philosophy heals people or has better results than methodological naturalism. You make the claim that hundreds of thousands have been cured, how do you know that if it can't be measured? Our philosophy of life, as I have said before, works for anyone who uses it. It is repeatable and falsifiable but more importantly it works and it works in a manner that can be used by anyone. Did mysticism wipe out smallpox? What has this mysticism cured? Does mysticism cure cancer? Is this Eastern Philosophy anything but "feelz"? Class and race do nothing, results is what counts.

 

You have equated the whole of Western philosophy with the scientific method Moontanman, they are different things. Karl Marx used the science of economics in a revolutionary motif and it was adopted by the Soviet Union in a repeatable way certainly and it worked perfectly well in unifying Soviet countries.. Nietzschze's views on man's self reliance to turn himself into a superman was repeatable and was adopted by the Nazis in Germany. The scientific method, utilising a hypothesis and falsifying it is a methodology which arose from a philosophical standpoint but it is not the whole of Western philosophy by any means.

 

Did Eastern philosophy and medicine wipe out smallpox.? No. However religion and Science were completely intertwined by the Arabs when they investigated natural phenomena and made a huge contribution to Science as a consequence, including contribution to the scientific method of observation, due to what you term mysticism.

 

Is it not interesting that these Eastern Philosophies have been around far longer than methodological naturalism and yet this Eastern Philosophy has done nothing but hold those societies back pretty much the same way that the west was held back until they started to use evidence based knowledge instead of mysticism to find out how the world works?

 

 

 

Arab scholars synthesized and further elaborated the knowledge they had gathered from ancient manuscripts, adding their own experience. Numerous Arab pioneers are mentioned in medical history. Among the most famous are: Yuhanna ibn Massuwayh who performed dissections and described allergy (4 , 7) ; Abu Bakr Muhummad ibn Zakariyya ar-Razi (Rhazes) who differentiated smallpox from measles, described the laryngeal branch of the recurrent nerve, introduced mercurial ointments and hot moist compresses in surgery, investigated psychosomatic reactions, and wrote the famous Al-Hawi, a medical encyclopedia of 30 volumes (4 , 7) ; Az-Zahrawi (Abulcasis), known as the father of surgery, who performed tracheotomy and lithotomy, introduced the use of cotton and catgut, and described extra-uterine pregnancy, cancer of the breast, and the sex-linked inheritance of hemophilia (4, 7) ; Ibn Sina (Avicenna) who differentiated meningitis from other neurologic diseases, described anthrax and tuberculosis, introduced urethral drug instillation, stressed the importance of hygiene, and dietetics, and the holistic approach to the patient [his work al-Qanun fil Tibb (The Canon of Medicine), represented the absolute authority in medicine for 500 years (4 , 7) ]; Ibn-Zuhr (Avenzoar) who described pericarditis, mediastinitis, and paralysis of the pharynx, and who pointed out the importance of drugs for body and soul (4 , 7) ; and Ibn-Nafis who studied and described pulmonary circulation (4 , 7)

 

http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/10/1581.full

 

As for the concepts of chi and prana energies, perhaps a rigorous scientific study will show that they are wrong. Fine! However, don't write them off because they are not well-characterised.

 

To quote AronRa "if you can't show it you don't know it" True

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There is a problem-solving element, no doubt. However, much of the assessment depends on memorising facts albeit imperfectly. Chinese and Japanese students often excel in Universities because the summative assessment is in the form of testing memory and these students are capable of memorising huge tracts of information.

 

This sounds contradictory to me. You object to the "Western" style of just learning facts (which I don't think is a realistic assessment) but think that the same thing is OK in China and Japan. Double standards?

 

 

I gave the evidence for use of certain paradigm shifts in Medicine in my last post.

 

Of course there are paradigm shifts in medicine: Because it is based on science. You don't get paradigm shifts in "traditional" or made up alternative medicine. (Although you may get fashion trends - because there is no evidence for any of it.)

 

 

It does not work that way due to the sheer heterogeneity of individuals in a society. For example, some sectors of a society may ask for more parks, others would wish to fund cancer wards, still others would wish to see humans colonise Mars.... There will always be a significant number of people who are unhappy and then we have to become utilitarian so the majority rules and the minorities feel missed out and disenfranchised. The experimental approach to democracy and making people happy in a democracy is not an absolute but a relative factor.

 

Of course. But without some attempt at a rational quantitative (i.e. scientific) approach you are relying on guesswork and wishful thinking.

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Seriously Jimmy, are you asserting that what amounts to nothing but faith healing is worthy of consideration just because it is claimed to be correct? Shouldn't this Eastern Philosophy work for anyone who uses it or do you have to be a Fakir to make it work?

 

Please tell us how a mystical philosophy heals people or has better results than methodological naturalism. You make the claim that hundreds of thousands have been cured, how do you know that if it can't be measured? Our philosophy of life, as I have said before, works for anyone who uses it. It is repeatable and falsifiable but more importantly it works and it works in a manner that can be used by anyone. Did mysticism wipe out smallpox? What has this mysticism cured? Does mysticism cure cancer? Is this Eastern Philosophy anything but "feelz"? Class and race do nothing, results is what counts.

 

You have equated the whole of Western philosophy with the scientific method Moontanman, they are different things. Karl Marx used the science of economics in a revolutionary motif and it was adopted by the Soviet Union in a repeatable way certainly and it worked perfectly well in unifying Soviet countries.. Nietzschze's views on man's self reliance to turn himself into a superman was repeatable and was adopted by the Nazis in Germany. The scientific method, utilising a hypothesis and falsifying it is a methodology which arose from a philosophical standpoint but it is not the whole of Western philosophy by any means.

 

Did Eastern philosophy and medicine wipe out smallpox.? No. However religion and Science were completely intertwined by the Arabs when they investigated natural phenomena and made a huge contribution to Science as a consequence, including contribution to the scientific method of observation, due to what you term mysticism.

 

Is it not interesting that these Eastern Philosophies have been around far longer than methodological naturalism and yet this Eastern Philosophy has done nothing but hold those societies back pretty much the same way that the west was held back until they started to use evidence based knowledge instead of mysticism to find out how the world works?

 

 

 

Arab scholars synthesized and further elaborated the knowledge they had gathered from ancient manuscripts, adding their own experience. Numerous Arab pioneers are mentioned in medical history. Among the most famous are: Yuhanna ibn Massuwayh who performed dissections and described allergy (4 , 7) ; Abu Bakr Muhummad ibn Zakariyya ar-Razi (Rhazes) who differentiated smallpox from measles, described the laryngeal branch of the recurrent nerve, introduced mercurial ointments and hot moist compresses in surgery, investigated psychosomatic reactions, and wrote the famous Al-Hawi, a medical encyclopedia of 30 volumes (4 , 7) ; Az-Zahrawi (Abulcasis), known as the father of surgery, who performed tracheotomy and lithotomy, introduced the use of cotton and catgut, and described extra-uterine pregnancy, cancer of the breast, and the sex-linked inheritance of hemophilia (4, 7) ; Ibn Sina (Avicenna) who differentiated meningitis from other neurologic diseases, described anthrax and tuberculosis, introduced urethral drug instillation, stressed the importance of hygiene, and dietetics, and the holistic approach to the patient [his work al-Qanun fil Tibb (The Canon of Medicine), represented the absolute authority in medicine for 500 years (4 , 7) ]; Ibn-Zuhr (Avenzoar) who described pericarditis, mediastinitis, and paralysis of the pharynx, and who pointed out the importance of drugs for body and soul (4 , 7) ; and Ibn-Nafis who studied and described pulmonary circulation (4 , 7)

 

http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/10/1581.full

 

As for the concepts of chi and prana energies, perhaps a rigorous scientific study will show that they are wrong. Fine! However, don't write them off because they are not well-characterised.

 

To quote AronRa "if you can't show it you don't know it" True

 

 

So the Arabs and their culture was based on mysticism? I don't think so, in fact until Europeans adopted the idea of experimenting and gathering evidence which they got from arab culture european culture was back water of mysticism. Then when islam dived back down the rathole of religion, which is just mysticism, and lost the lead they had gained though methodological naturalism..

 

As i have already stated western civilization was also based in mysticism and they didn't prosper until mysticism was largely abandoned. Just because some people successfully use irrational means to come to power and hold it doesn't mean it is anything but nonsense...

 

I do not write off chi and prana energies because they are not well characterised I write them off because no one has demonstrated they work...

Edited by Moontanman

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This sounds contradictory to me. You object to the "Western" style of just learning facts (which I don't think is a realistic assessment) but think that the same thing is OK in China and Japan. Double standards?

 

As a teacher of 18 years, I know that we are teaching a whole load of scientific facts and hoping that students apply those to the Science exams. If you don't believe me, take a look at the Science syllabi (syllabuses?) and the examinations. I wish it was different and that we could teach a practical heavy syllabus which properly gives time for students to learn research and reasoning skills to a high level. Unfortunately, we have to leave that task to Universities. Chinese and Japanese students apparently use rote learning, I don't actually know this but reacted to the post. They are quite successful due to well developed memory skills and Universities want to test recall in final examinations. I am not applying double standards but tried to make the point that testing memory is an Oxford/Cambridge structure that may not be suitable for all students. There are alternatives where deep knowledge can be achieved and not the type of superficial knowledge that I have obtained personally.

 

 

 

Of course there are paradigm shifts in medicine: Because it is based on science. You don't get paradigm shifts in "traditional" or made up alternative medicine. (Although you may get fashion trends - because there is no evidence for any of it.)

 

Yes, you are right. But the paradigm shift came when the people studying neural plasticity looked for a paradigm where any sensory information (pressure, sound etc...) would be interpreted by as yet unknown parts of the brain. The body behaving like an energy transducer and allowing blind people to see with their tongues is a pretty bloody big paradigm shift. It came from looking at Medicine in a more Eastern holistic manner. It was a shift from the deductive to the inductive.

 

Of course. But without some attempt at a rational quantitative (i.e. scientific) approach you are relying on guesswork and wishful thinking.

 

Unfortunately true with chi, prana and other Eastern methods of reasoning which Science cannot reconcile with the act of measurement and quantification - a pity really. The world is bigger and probably more interesting than our sensate information lets on.....

 

So the Arabs and their culture was based on mysticism? I don't think so, in fact until Europeans adopted the idea of experimenting and gathering evidence which they got from arab culture european culture was back water of mysticism. Then when islam dived back down the rathole of religion, which is just mysticism, and lost the lead they had gained though methodological naturalism..

 

As i have already stated western civilization was also based in mysticism and they didn't prosper until mysticism was largely abandoned. Just because some people successfully use irrational means to come to power and hold it doesn't mean it is anything but nonsense...

 

I do not write off chi and prana energies because they are not well characterised I write them off because no one has demonstrated they work..

 

Did Eastern philosophy and medicine wipe out smallpox.? No. However religion and Science were completely intertwined by the Arabs when they investigated natural phenomena and made a huge contribution to Science as a consequence, including contribution to the scientific method of observation, due to what you term mysticism.

 

 

 

The Golden Age” was based on several factors (5) . Muslims following the guidelines of the Prophet studied and searched for knowledge (1 , 5 , 6) . The Quran is clear: “The scholar’s ink is more sacred than the blood of martyrs”, while the Prophet promoted medical research preaching that “For every disease, Allah has given a cure.” (5)

http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/10/1581.full

 

Moontanman, although I respect and admire you (although you are a bloody frustrating friend...), you got this wrong in my opinion.

Edited by jimmydasaint

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