AtomicBiology Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 What do you think of this concept? Let's go the next step deeper than molecular biology, down to the atomic level where the right numbers of the right atoms have to be found, sorted, selected, and precisely assembled for each complex part of each complex cell for every living entity. Just visualize what has to be happening to build even the first tiny root hair cell onto a newly planted carrot seed. How many carbon atoms have to be found in the soil and seed; how many hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, calcium, iron atoms, etc., etc., etc., have to be found, sorted, selected, and precisely placed for the construction of each complex part of that cell? The nucleus has to be built, the Golgi, ribosomes, mitochondrion, smooth endoplasmic reticulum, rough endoplasmic reticulum, cytoskeleton, peroxisomes, plasma membrane, etc., etc. All of these complex parts, even for this first tiny root hair cell, have to be properly assembled. The probability is very high that electromagnetism, chemical reactions, or other unguided processes, are incapable of doing this construction. It seems that all of this brilliant physical work of precisely assembling the right numbers of the right atoms may take more intelligence and care than evolution can muster. This may seem like a revolutionary concept to atheists and strict evolutionists, but what do You think of it? -3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 what do You think of it? ! Moderator Note I think it's creationist trolling, and at its core it's not really containing much biology at all. Please show that I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The probability is very high that electromagnetism, chemical reactions, or other unguided processes, are incapable of doing this construction. Why would anyone think these things came about like this. This may seem like a revolutionary concept to atheists and strict evolutionists, but what do You think of it? It is a very old idea. I think it has been described as the "tornado in a junkyard" argument or something similar. It appears to be based on no knowledge about how evolution (or even biology) works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endy0816 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Evolution didn't try to do all that at once so... At least a couple of cases of symbiosis. Probably more as you can lose certain components and still function to an extent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 What do you think of this concept? ... ... what do You think of it? I think it shows that you don't understand biology. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicBiology Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 ! Moderator Note I think it's creationist trolling, and at its core it's not really containing much biology at all. Please show that I'm wrong. Hello swansont: After almost three decades of research, we at Reality R&D, determined that there is enough evidence now to propose a new branch of science that we are calling "Atomic Biology". It goes two levels deeper than cellular biology and one level deeper than molecular biology, down to where the action is in finding, selecting, and assembling all the right numbers of the right atoms from available sources, to build every part of every cell. The first scientific factor is that cells are built with atoms; secondly, each complex part of each cell has to be properly assembled using the right numbers of the right atoms; thirdly, atoms have no internal means with which to move themselves to their precise place in their part of the cell, therefore an external force is required to find, select, count, and precisely place them. Is there any part of this so far that is not logically correct? Then, as atoms have controlled energy supplied, but no actual "life", this has to be added to make the cells functional. OK so far? The physical work of finding, sorting, selecting, counting, and precisely placing and fastening each atom in its precise place, plus programming the DNA and RNA, etc., requires a complex plan and accurate execution. Sequencing, speed, dexterity, and enormous reliability are also essential. One of our favorite examples is in the replacement of our red blood cells about every 120 days. Pallister tells us that for a 70 kg male, this requires about 2.3 million new rbc's to be completed for him every second; Tortora says that each rbc is made of about 280 million molecules of haemoglobin; and Max Perutz says that each molecule of haemoglobin is made of about 10,000 atoms. If we do the math, this works out to approx. 2,300,000 X 280,000,000 X 10,000 = 6,440,000,000,000,000 right atoms per second that must be found in our digestive system, then sorted, selected, grasped, and precisely placed and fastened, just for our red blood cells. (Over 6400 quadrillion per second). Of course, these atoms and more (for unused roots, leaves, etc.) have to come from our food, which has to come from the soil of gardens, fields, orchards, etc. Pretty simple logic so far? Then there are the other approximately 80 trillion other various cells in our body that also need to be constructed, sustained, maintained, repaired, and replaced at various times in order to keep us alive and functioning. Atomic biology is proposed for the purpose of studying the work of building, sustaining, maintaining, repairing, and replacing living cells and entities using atoms in available sources, as well as improving the sources as needed for optimal construction. We seek scholars who believe this proposal is at least worthy of investigation. Why would anyone think these things came about like this. It is a very old idea. I think it has been described as the "tornado in a junkyard" argument or something similar. It appears to be based on no knowledge about how evolution (or even biology) works. Hello Strange: The basic concept is simple, straight forward, and logical. We are endeavoring to make this understandable by fifth graders. If you look at your skin, fingernails, hairs on your arm, or any other cells on your body, realizing they are made of atoms, you can ask where these atoms came from. Logically, the atoms had to come from the food we put in our mouth and a little from what we breathe-in. Does that make sense? Then ask where did the food atoms come from? Logically, other than meats which also came from foods, the atoms for our foods came mainly from the soil and rain, and a little from the air. Where else? Since the right numbers of the right atoms have to be found, sorted, selected, counted, grasped, precisely placed and fastened by the billions to make every complex part of every complex cell, there is obviously an enormous amount of accurate physical work that must be performed. Exactly how would you say cells are constructed of atoms? Evolution didn't try to do all that at once so... At least a couple of cases of symbiosis. Probably more as you can lose certain components and still function to an extent. Hello Endy0816: We, at Reality Research are focusing on the physical work essential in building living cells and entities using the right numbers of the right atoms. I think it shows that you don't understand biology. Hello John: If you are interested in a possible new "best explanation" for the cause of life, you may enjoy looking into this proposal. Most of it is pure logic. -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sethoflagos Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) For those interested in the depths of depravity from whence this abomination originates https://twitter.com/realityrandd http://www.realityrandd.com/ Edited August 11, 2016 by sethoflagos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elite Engineer Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I didn't read the OP..but wouldn't this be quantum physics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endy0816 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 My Mitochondria take offense at these claims. All of them. They did a bit of quorum sensing, took a vote and that's what they decided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Hello swansont: After almost three decades of research, we at Reality R&D, determined that there is enough evidence now to propose a new branch of science that we are calling "Atomic Biology". It goes two levels deeper than cellular biology and one level deeper than molecular biology, down to where the action is in finding, selecting, and assembling all the right numbers of the right atoms from available sources, to build every part of every cell. The first scientific factor is that cells are built with atoms; secondly, each complex part of each cell has to be properly assembled using the right numbers of the right atoms; thirdly, atoms have no internal means with which to move themselves to their precise place in their part of the cell, therefore an external force is required to find, select, count, and precisely place them. Is there any part of this so far that is not logically correct? Then, as atoms have controlled energy supplied, but no actual "life", this has to be added to make the cells functional. OK so far? This isn't logic, it's science. you have to devise tests for your premises, e.g. you have to devise a test for "adding life". Do you have a Dr. Frankenstein on your staff? Also, "atoms have no internal means with which to move themselves" is is a straw man argument. Nobody claims they do. But atoms are attracted to other atoms (and molecules), and this physics and chemistry has been known for quite some time. Perhaps some additional reading is in order on your part. Pretty simple logic so far? Anything based on false premises will lead to an invalid conclusion. We seek scholars who believe this proposal is at least worthy of investigation. We're a science site. You're peddling intelligent design claptrap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrP Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I think that at the atomic level it is nothing but chemistry/physic/biochemistry.. it doesn't become biology until you have huge complex living systems or cells (even the simplest of life is huge and complex compared to an atom). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 If you are interested in a possible new "best explanation" for the cause of life, you may enjoy looking into this proposal. Have you ever thought of studying biology and, you know, finding out how these things (which are such a mystery to you) work? Most of it is pure logic. By logic, you mean the usual crackpot definition of "I know nothing about the subject so I have made some stuff up that makes sense to me". This level of wilful ignorance is rather depressing. I think that at the atomic level it is nothing but chemistry/physic/biochemistry.. it doesn't become biology until you have huge complex living systems or cells (even the simplest of life is huge and complex compared to an atom). For those interested in the depths of depravity from whence this abomination originates There are religious groups who take a reasonably intelligent approach to the topic: http://biologos.org/ Which makes the OP's idiocy all the worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Personally I think it's a very interesting theory, to construct a human from an atomic scale precisely. Well but you will have to look into atomic assembler or molecular assembler or even nano factory. To build an assembler of that scale still needs some work. In breaking the bonds with either pulling force or some type of enzyme and assemble them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Personally I think it's a very interesting theory, to construct a human from an atomic scale precisely. Well but you will have to look into atomic assembler or molecular assembler or even nano factory. To build an assembler of that scale still needs some work. In breaking the bonds with either pulling force or some type of enzyme and assemble them What is your evidence that this would be necessary? Do I need an atomic assembler to make water from H2 and O2? Did Miller and Urey need an atomic assembler for the results they got from their experiment? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 (edited) What is your evidence that this would be necessary? Do I need an atomic assembler to make water from H2 and O2? Did Miller and Urey need an atomic assembler for the results they got from their experiment? Well, H2 and O2 combines to form water by releasing heat. The same heat and work is required to break apart bonds. What you need is an assembler that brings the atom to the right place and assemble them, not throw everything in a solution and expect a human to come out. But if you do figure out a way to bring every atom to the right place then forgive me, you are on the right track, without taking hundreds or thousands of years Edited August 12, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Well, H2 and O2 combines to form water by releasing heat. The same heat and work is required to break apart bonds. What you need is an assembler that brings the atom to the right place and assemble them, not throw everything in a solution and expect a human to come out. But if you do figure out a way to bring every atom to the right place then forgive me, you are on the right track, without taking hundreds or thousands of years Did you need an assembler to build you as you grew up? How did your cells replicate on their own, without this outside help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 (edited) Did you need an assembler to build you as you grew up? How did your cells replicate on their own, without this outside help? You got a good point but cell building cell is different, the op intends to build it from an atomic scale, you don't replicate a cell atomically Edited August 12, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 This is hilariously wrong! Every snow flake proves this wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 You got a good point but cell building cell is different, the op intends to build it from an atomic scale, you don't replicate a cell atomically The OP implies that replicating a cell is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 (edited) The OP implies that replicating a cell is impossible. Right well, I guess you have the answer then, cells do replicate Edited August 12, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Hello John: If you are interested in a possible new "best explanation" for the cause of life, you may enjoy looking into this proposal. Most of it is pure logic. Do you have the slightest understanding of how good the current "best explanation" is? Do you have any idea how poor and explanation "Goddidit" is? "Most of it is pure logic." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 This is interesting https://highered.mheducation.com/sites/9834092339/student_view0/chapter10/stimulation_of_cell_replication.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicBiology Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 Personally I think it's a very interesting theory, to construct a human from an atomic scale precisely. Well but you will have to look into atomic assembler or molecular assembler or even nano factory. To build an assembler of that scale still needs some work. In breaking the bonds with either pulling force or some type of enzyme and assemble them Biology should have gone to the atomic assembly level ages ago, but certainly it is proven now that even with our immense accumulated knowledge and our great equipment, we can't come close to assembling even one complex part of one cell using raw elements. Why then would we expect something with no intelligence at all to assemble any live cell or entity? The OP implies that replicating a cell is impossible. Swansont, you have to think of where the atoms for the second cell come from and how the right numbers of the right atoms are moved from their source to their precise position in their complex part of their cell. Evolution says that all this finding, sorting, selecting, moving, and assembling of these right numbers of the right atoms is performed with no guidance, plan, or intelligence whatsoever. If you believe that, then your faith is much stronger than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sethoflagos Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Why then would we expect something with no intelligence at all to assemble any live cell or entity? Trillions of random experiments every second for a couple of hundred million years? Seems as good a way as any for turning the staggeringly improbable into practically a foregone conclusion. We see the evidence of this process all around us, And no evidence whatsoever for anything else. Edited August 15, 2016 by sethoflagos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Swansont, you have to think of where the atoms for the second cell come from and how the right numbers of the right atoms are moved from their source to their precise position in their complex part of their cell. This is very well understood, already. You really ought to learn the basics of biology. It is rather embarrassing to see these public displays of ignorance. Evolution says that all this finding, sorting, selecting, moving, and assembling of these right numbers of the right atoms is performed with no guidance, plan, or intelligence whatsoever. Evolution says nothing of the sort. This makes me wonder is this is dishonesty rather than mere ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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