iNow

60,000 Nazis Marched in Poland this weekend

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Silvestru    55
4 minutes ago, koti said:

As for Krakow and your 6 years there, Im glad to hear it (Im in Warsaw, let me know if youre coming here we’ll grab a beer) Remember that Krakow is a sanctuary of the „old intelligence” and it might not be a good indication of the whole picture. I hope your example is a valid one though. 

I understand your concerns regarding the government. Hopefully things will changes.

Piwo to świetny pomysł, dam ci znać następnym razem, gdy będę w Warszawie :) 

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koti    140
4 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

I understand your concerns regarding the government. Hopefully things will changes.

 

Piwo to świetny pomysł, dam ci znać następnym razem, gdy będę w Warszawie :) 

Spoko, daj znać jak będziesz w Warszawie :) Oraz piszesz jak rasowy Polak (pamiętaj tylko, że „Ci” zawsze z dużej litery) 

Lets keep this in English though from now on.

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iNow    4577
2 hours ago, koti said:

there isn’t any way to counter this without destroying our autonomy as a democratic state - its a vicious circle. 

You’re right to highlight how this cycle is self-reinforcing, but I need to push back slightly on the idea that autonomy and democracy must be somehow destroyed to counter this situation.

Instead, I posit that we need MORE democracy and that part of the problem here is that the majority of the populace actually agrees this is out of line, but for various other reasons (fear, anxiety, lack of time, focus on more foundational things like putting food on the table and paying bills, etc.) They choose not to speak up. Most folks are unknowingly complicit with their silence even though their words carry such tremendous weight and would do so much to counterbalance this ignorance and hatred.

Again, we need MORE democracy in its truest sense. We need MORE people standing up to be counted. We need louder voices and MORE passion from those who find these racist and nationalist tendencies outdated and repugnant. Too often, however, the passion is only visible from the minority who scapegoats and blames everything on other minorities.

We need to talk to people, perhaps in their own language just as you and silvestru have done here, to remind them of our deeper values; to remind them that there are better ways to solve the problems we collectively face; to demonstrate that’s it’s not us and them, but just us; to remind them that scapegoating only delays solutions and deepens problems thus making us all much worse off; to remind them that we’re all in this together and are far stronger when we stand up against these pathetic twats in a unified, consistent, energized way. 

Democracy is EXACTLY what’s needed to solve this, but so too is increased effort and engagement from the great majority who quietly and silently oppose it. We must find their unmute button. That’s the lever we must push.

Edited by iNow
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koti    140
3 hours ago, iNow said:

Instead, I posit that we need MORE democracy and that part of the problem here is that the majority of the populace actually agrees this is out of line, but for various other reasons (fear, anxiety, lack of time, focus on more foundational things like putting food on the table and paying bills, etc.) They choose not to speak up. Most folks are unknowingly complicit with their silence even though their words carry such tremendous weight and would do so much to counterbalance this ignorance and hatred.

Unfortunately this is incorrect in the context of the current situation in Poland. The populist right with their countless breaches and dismantling of the democratic state has been in power for 2 years and the polls are 44% for the a holes at power vs 21% for the liberal democratic opposition previously at power... with the rational left 8% and the extreme right 6%.

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dimreepr    647
3 hours ago, iNow said:

You’re right to highlight how this cycle is self-reinforcing, but I need to push back slightly on the idea that autonomy and democracy must be somehow destroyed to counter this situation.

Instead, I posit that we need MORE democracy and that part of the problem here is that the majority of the populace actually agrees this is out of line, but for various other reasons (fear, anxiety, lack of time, focus on more foundational things like putting food on the table and paying bills, etc.) They choose not to speak up. Most folks are unknowingly complicit with their silence even though their words carry such tremendous weight and would do so much to counterbalance this ignorance and hatred.

Again, we need MORE democracy in its truest sense. We need MORE people standing up to be counted. We need louder voices and MORE passion from those who find these racist and nationalist tendencies outdated and repugnant. Too often, however, the passion is only visible from the minority who scapegoats and blames everything on other minorities.

We need to talk to people, perhaps in their own language just as you and silvestru have done here, to remind them of our deeper values; to remind them that there are better ways to solve the problems we collectively face; to demonstrate that’s it’s not us and them, but just us; to remind them that scapegoating only delays solutions and deepens problems thus making us all much worse off; to remind them that we’re all in this together and are far stronger when we stand up against these pathetic twats in a unified, consistent, energized way. 

Democracy is EXACTLY what’s needed to solve this, but so too is increased effort and engagement from the great majority who quietly and silently oppose it. We must find their unmute button. That’s the lever we must push.

Agreed but how? The echo chamber provides many soldiers for the army of the righteously indignant and the silently opposed tend to feel/be individual and it takes an exceptional individual to stand up to an army.

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tuco    11

Democracy is capable of destroying itself from within. That is why there are safeguards, like a constitution for example. That is also why the situation in Poland is worrying as such safeguards are being weakened. As it was said, the march in question is not the biggest problem Poland has at the moment. 

How? Well, what to say? By passing time .. I think the fact that Poland is part of the EU, thus subject to at least some actual outside influence,  allows for an optimistic prospect. Mr. Orbán in Hungary been trying to defy the EU since his massive election win couple of years ago and while some steps taken by his administration are questionable, he has not defied the EU yet. 

As noted, and it's my belief, the Polish people themselves gotta make it right, just like people elsewhere, for example in the US (Trump) or the UK (Brexit). For that, they need time. And if they will not make it right? What to do but to say ... it's too bad. There is no Messiah. 

We live in interesting and fast-changing times.

Edited by tuco

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dimreepr    647
22 minutes ago, tuco said:

Democracy is capable of destroying itself from within. That is why there are safeguards, like a constitution for example. That is also why the situation in Poland is worrying as such safeguards are being weakened. As it was said, the march in question is not the biggest problem Poland has at the moment. 

How? Well, what to say? By passing time .. I think the fact that Poland is part of the EU, thus subject to at least some actual outside influence,  allows for an optimistic prospect. Mr. Orbán in Hungary been trying to defy the EU since his massive election win couple of years ago and while some steps taken by his administration are questionable, he has not defied the EU yet. 

As noted, and it's my belief, the Polish people themselves gotta make it right, just like people elsewhere, for example in the US (Trump) or the UK (Brexit). For that, they need time. And if they will not make it right? What to do but to say ... it's too bad. There is no Messiah. 

We live in interesting and fast-changing times.

 

 

One man/woman can, but they have to be extraordinary. 

Quote

There is no Messiah.

But there is always a Mandela or Gandhi or Jesus or Mohamid or Buddha or...

When the need arises.

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tuco    11

On the contrary, I would think that circumstance has to be extraordinary but that is not why we are here on this topic. All I wanted to say I support the notion of "more democracy" from previous posts, and while doing so I got sidetracked, sorry about that. 

On a lighter note:

 

 

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iNow    4577
2 hours ago, koti said:

the polls are 44% for the a holes at power vs 21% for the liberal democratic opposition previously at power... with the rational left 8% and the extreme right 6%.

I never said it would be easy, but remember there are countless others who disagree and chose not to vote or who are not represented in the polls for various reasons. We need to encourage and reinforce their voices, especially given the strong headwinds you cite.

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John Cuthber    3237
21 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It looks right to me. If the pendulum swings too much to the Left the Right get mardy, and vice versa, as a counterbalancing force. Whether you agree with that is an entirely different matter. The more upset one is about the way things are going, the more proactive one is likely to be to try and change things. Conversely, the more things are going ones way, the more contented one is and, hence, less motivated than ones opposite number.

OK, so, at the moment, we have a very Right wing govt in the UK and we have the loony right out on the streets; the likes of "Britain furst" are picking up members.

Similarly, in the aftermath of the Brexit vote- where the pro Brexit side won we had a massive increase in racially motivated violence. 

Now, I'm not saying that all Brexiteers were racist, but practically all the racists were pro Brexit.
So the evidence shows (unsurprisingly) that when a group perceive that they are "winning" they go out and brag about it, while those who feel they are on the losing side are intimidated into staying home.

I'm not sure which effect wins- especially since it's difficult to trust the news media.

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StringJunky    1511
4 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

OK, so, at the moment, we have a very Right wing govt in the UK and we have the loony right out on the streets; the likes of "Britain furst" are picking up members.

Similarly, in the aftermath of the Brexit vote- where the pro Brexit side won we had a massive increase in racially motivated violence. 

Now, I'm not saying that all Brexiteers were racist, but practically all the racists were pro Brexit.
So the evidence shows (unsurprisingly) that when a group perceive that they are "winning" they go out and brag about it, while those who feel they are on the losing side are intimidated into staying home.

I'm not sure which effect wins- especially since it's difficult to trust the news media.

Although rather tenuous, my view is that the middle ground, where most people probably are, is swinging Left. Whereas before, Corbyn was seen as towards hard Left, i get the feeling he's being seen increasingly by moderate voters as more mainstream which suggests a shift in the collective attitude. I personally am shifting more Left because I feel this government is too capitalistic and social/humanitarian  matters are dwindling in importance to them. Quite frankly, I think certain things should be under government control, especially areas of infrastructure and social care. i would class myself as a typical moderate voter that can vote either way depending on the needs of a particular era.

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dimreepr    647
20 hours ago, iNow said:

I never said it would be easy, but remember there are countless others who disagree and chose not to vote or who are not represented in the polls for various reasons. We need to encourage and reinforce their voices, especially given the strong headwinds you cite.

The problem is, the non-voters tend to be apathetic, not fearless, they tend to want to keep their heads down and trust the status quo.

21 hours ago, tuco said:

On the contrary, I would think that circumstance has to be extraordinary  

 

Extraordinary circumstance defines extraordinary people.

21 hours ago, tuco said:

but that is not why we are here on this topic.

I disagree.

19 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Although rather tenuous, my view is that the middle ground, where most people probably are, is swinging Left. Whereas before, Corbyn was seen as towards hard Left, i get the feeling he's being seen increasingly by moderate voters as more mainstream which suggests a shift in the collective attitude. I personally am shifting more Left because I feel this government is too capitalistic and social/humanitarian  matters are dwindling in importance to them. Quite frankly, I think certain things should be under government control, especially areas of infrastructure and social care. i would class myself as a typical moderate voter that can vote either way depending on the needs of a particular era.

Corbyn didn't win...

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iNow    4577
3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The problem is, the non-voters tend to be apathetic, not fearless, they tend to want to keep their heads down and trust the status quo.

Indeed, and one of my core points is that we'll never change that if we too become apathetic in encouraging others to speak up or if we also decide that we should keep our own heads down regarding the behavior of the status quo perpetuaters you cite. 

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iNow    4577
1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Perhaps voting should be made mandatory.

Follow the Australian model.

I support that and we’re already talking about it and related topics to improve voting over here for anyone desiring to discuss more: 

 

 

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koti    140
2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Perhaps voting should be made mandatory.

Follow the Australian model.

 

Sounds reasonable.

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MigL    526

Your assumption is that citizens forced to vote, will educate themselves on the issues.

Otherwise you have a group of people playing Tic-Tac-Toe on their ballot forms.

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iNow    4577

Hey folks... I put that link to the other thread there for a reason. The idea of compulsory voting definitely makes for interesting discussion. Just don’t do it here in this thread, please. 

Now, speaking of the rise of white nationalism... is that flame getting hotter or already slowly extinguishing? Can we help to snuff it out more quickly somehow?

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