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Timeline for when religion will be obsolete.


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#1 Code42

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 04:54 AM

When will religious belief, or belief in gods become a thing of the past? 100 years? 300 years? Never?

Do you think most of humanity will ever drop superstition and embrace scientific and secular worldviews?

Edited by Code42, 27 May 2017 - 04:55 AM.

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#2 Strange

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 05:54 AM

No. I think the need to believe is inherent to human nature. More so in some than others.


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#3 HallsofIvy

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 11:58 AM

You appear to conflate "religion" with "belief in Gods" which has not been historically true.  There have been, and are today, religions which focus on how people should treat each other irrespective of whether on believes in the existence of one or more Gods.  I think "How people should treat one another" will alway be a concern as long as there are people.


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#4 imatfaal

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 01:44 PM

You appear to conflate "religion" with "belief in Gods" which has not been historically true.  There have been, and are today, religions which focus on how people should treat each other irrespective of whether on believes in the existence of one or more Gods.  I think "How people should treat one another" will alway be a concern as long as there are people.

 

Which one?  I don't wish to "true Scotsman"  the argument, but if there is no supernatural element to a regimen of behaviour it is an ethical system - not a religion. 

 

There are the Quakers and the Universal Unitarians - who both have sizeable proportions of their congregations who are atheists - but as an organisation they "welcome" and "find space" for secularism; thus showing the existence of a (perhaps unimportant) demarcation between those members who are secular and those who are not, and that the organisation as a whole is non-secular.


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#5 John Cuthber

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 02:05 PM

Religion has been obsolete for decades.

Many people have not yet noticed.


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#6 Code42

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 02:42 PM

I guess "belief in gods" would be more what I'm addressing here. The end of religion doesn't necessarily entail the end of fantastic beliefs in supernatural entities.
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#7 Handy andy

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 10:36 AM

Richard Dawkins published a book called the selfish gene. Here is a wiki link about the book https://en.wikipedia...he_Selfish_Gene

 

Humans in fact all animals are more likely to survive childhood if they believe without question what they are told, and learn from their parents and society around them. Ie don't put your hand in the fire or you will be burnt. The genetic ability of being able to believe what you are told, improves your chance of survival.

 

Without education religion will carry on indefinitely, in the minds of those who believe. Once a thing is believed to be correct, it takes a open minded person to relearn what they believe to be correct. The teachings of many religions are to reject any body who disbelieves, and is therefore self perpetuating, because non believers are cast out of the religious social group.  

 

There are some very interesting points on this website I stumbled across.

 

http://www.mysearch....tml/1.Home.html

 

Two examples that might be pertinent to the discussion are

"

As a broad generalization, most of us are a product of some form of cultural heritage or national identity, which can undoubtedly influence what we have come to believe is true. As such, there is often a very fine line between education and indoctrination, especially where our children are concerned. As a consequence, there are many perceptions of the truth and many interpretations of the true nature of the universe.

 

The basic rationale of science is that facts can be established by empirical verifications. However, science is now often charged with predicating its verification on evermore abstract mathematics, which may not be generally understood by society at large. As such, science has become, to many, an act of faith comparable to many religions.

"


Edited by Handy andy, 28 May 2017 - 01:18 PM.

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#8 Phi for All

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 02:42 PM

It's much more complicated, but at their heart religions are an emotional explanation developed emotionally. They aren't rational in the least, although at the time of their creation, I'm sure many people thought they were. Later attempts to rationalize them and make them sound reasoned fall short, imo. 

 

As we realize more and more benefit from reasoned explanations, and less from beliefs not based in the natural world, I think religions will become more of a quaint oddity in line with most other superstitions. On the other hand, since they're emotionally based, it doesn't take much to make believers go off the deep end. I think it's important for rational people to take the null stance (no need for religion) as opposed to claiming religions/gods are wrong/don't exist. That's a stance almost guaranteed to bring out the emotions in a religious person, and blind them to any reason you may show. Religion will always be around as long as people think with their hearts first.


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#9 Itoero

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 02:53 PM

I don't think the belief in a god will disappear. Science can never explain everything, there is always place for a god of the gaps.
Religion will become different but I doubt it will disappear completely. It also depends on how you define religion.
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#10 studiot

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 02:56 PM

When will religious belief, or belief in gods become a thing of the past? 100 years? 300 years? Never?

Do you think most of humanity will ever drop superstition and embrace scientific and secular worldviews?

 

 

Sadly, not soon enough.


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#11 Handy andy

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:45 AM

I don't think the belief in a god will disappear. Science can never explain everything, there is always place for a god of the gaps.
Religion will become different but I doubt it will disappear completely. It also depends on how you define religion.

 

This is a very interesting point, and one which can be played with :)

 

The tendency for believers and non believers is to avoid engagement, due to the emotional stance some take, this is wrong, discussion is the only way to change peoples views. Unless they become psychotic (NOTE never discuss pork or bacon sandwiches with a moslem :) )

 

Without talking to religious people and arguing against religion it will carry on for ever.

 

The belief in god is a question of definition, "there is always a position for god in the gaps". I am not sure of the verse in the bible, and I am not going to look it up, but I think it states something along the lines of  "don't you know god is in you and around you and in everything you see" This could be the concept of the god particle or space. Engaging with people on their definition of god, seems to get around the emotional response. Once past this most religious folk will start to engage, and their views can be questioned, and the religious texts can be shown to contradictory, bipolar and based on astrology etc.

 

Outside of religious beliefs we have beliefs based on superstitions and ghost stories, which are at the base level of most religious beliefs, ref an afterlife, or the occult. These are reinforced by people claiming out of body experiences, on operating tables who are convinced something weird happened to them. The power of the human imagination is a difficult thing to get around.


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#12 Itoero

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 10:15 AM

Without talking to religious people and arguing against religion it will carry on for ever.

Religion slowly disappears when it has no use anymore, countries in Europe are a nice example of this.
Wars, famine and inequality go along with the rise of religion.

Outside of religious beliefs we have beliefs based on superstitions and ghost stories, which are at the base level of most religious beliefs, ref an afterlife, or the occult. These are reinforced by people claiming out of body experiences, on operating tables who are convinced something weird happened to them. The power of the human imagination is a difficult thing to get around.

A lack of imagination imo can cause people to be more prone to become religious and it causes people to be more vulnerable for indoctrination.
Creativity is the use of imagination and there is a threshold hypothesis that states that high creativity requires high or at least above-average intelligence. At this, above-average intelligence is thought to form a necessary but not a sufficient condition for high creativity .
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3682183/
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#13 Handy andy

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 11:43 AM

Religion slowly disappears when it has no use anymore, countries in Europe are a nice example of this.
Wars, famine and inequality go along with the rise of religion.

A lack of imagination imo can cause people to be more prone to become religious and it causes people to be more vulnerable for indoctrination.
Creativity is the use of imagination and there is a threshold hypothesis that states that high creativity requires high or at least above-average intelligence. At this, above-average intelligence is thought to form a necessary but not a sufficient condition for high creativity .
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3682183/

 

 

Famine is more to do with environment, inequality to do with greed and economics.

Religion is used in the control of people by religious and political leaders, it is a tool that can be used to highlight differences between people, and dehumanise them in time of war. It is also a tool that can be used to bring people together with similar beliefs, which makes them more likely to survive.

 

There are many forms of creativity and intelligence, not all uneducated people are stupid, and not all educated people are intelligent.

 

Edit

 

Another point that may sustain religion especially under Islam and to a lesser degree in other old testament religions, is that it is dangerous to convert from Islam, you can get your self executed if you are lucky you will just be rejected from the community.


Edited by Handy andy, 29 May 2017 - 04:34 PM.

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#14 Handy andy

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 10:38 AM

A Further point that will sustain religion is it is a multi million dollar tax free business, encouraged by governments, and religious people like the social aspects of meeting  together and having a bit of a sing song.


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#15 DrKrettin

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 10:52 AM

I think Goethe sums it up perfectly:

 

Wer Wissenschaft und Kunst besitzt,
hat auch Religion;
wer jene beiden nicht besitzt,
der habe Religion.

 

I find this fiendishly difficult to translate accurately, mainly because I can never find a satisfactory word for Wissenschaft. Science or knowledge are the best, depending on context. Anyway, I'd say

 

He who has science and art

also has religion.

He who has neither of these,

let him have religion.


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#16 Itoero

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 11:32 AM

Famine is more to do with environment, inequality to do with greed and economics.
Religion is used in the control of people by religious and political leaders, it is a tool that can be used to highlight differences between people, and dehumanise them in time of war. It is also a tool that can be used to bring people together with similar beliefs, which makes them more likely to survive.
 
There are many forms of creativity and intelligence, not all uneducated people are stupid, and not all educated people are intelligent.
 
Edit
 
Another point that may sustain religion especially under Islam and to a lesser degree in other old testament religions, is that it is dangerous to convert from Islam, you can get your self executed if you are lucky you will just be rejected from the community.

I don't mean that famine and inequality are caused by religion. In countries with inequality, famine, wars....you'll often see a lot of religion or you'll see that religion is on the rise.
There is a strong atheist discrimination in Islam majority countries.
This a World map of Muslim support of the death penalty for apostasy.

http://www.unz.com/a...h-for-apostasy/
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#17 Handy andy

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 03:45 PM

I think Goethe sums it up perfectly:

 

Wer Wissenschaft und Kunst besitzt,
hat auch Religion;
wer jene beiden nicht besitzt,
der habe Religion.

 

I find this fiendishly difficult to translate accurately, mainly because I can never find a satisfactory word for Wissenschaft. Science or knowledge are the best, depending on context. Anyway, I'd say

 

He who has science and art

also has religion.

He who has neither of these,

let him have religion.

 

The devils in the detail, with translations.

 

Who owns science and art,
has also religion;
who does not have those two,
He got religion.

 

What exactly do you want the quote to mean?. Are you trying to say religion is included in science and art?. How old is the quote? Is it from the dark ages, when religion was assumed to over rule science, and the earth was thought to be flat?


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#18 DrKrettin

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 03:53 PM

 

What exactly do you want the quote to mean?. Are you trying to say religion is included in science and art?. How old is the quote? Is it from the dark ages, when religion was assumed to over rule science, and the earth was thought to be flat?

 

Who owns science and art,
has also religion;
who does not have those two,
He got religion.

 

Your translation fails totally, because you did not spot the subjunctive "habe" in the fourth line, which is the whole point. I thought the quotation was obvious - that anybody who has science and art has no need for religion. If you don't have these, then you might as well take up religion. And do you really have to ask when Goethe lived? 


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#19 Handy andy

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 04:02 PM

A Further point that will sustain religion is it is a multi million dollar tax free business, encouraged by governments, and religious people like the social aspects of meeting  together and having a bit of a sing song.

 

Many evangelists and religious folk actively seek out converts, and expand their views. 

 

Atheists don't do this, and have no movement to spread the word that gods and religion are based on myth. Atheists except the likes of Dawkins don't get on soap boxes and lecture people on street corners, every sunday. This gives the appearance of a one sided battle with atheists just turning the other cheek.

 

How many atheists actively enjoy pointing out the insanity of religious belief with religious folks. How many just avoid discussion.


 

Your translation fails totally, because you did not spot the subjunctive "habe" in the fourth line, which is the whole point. I thought the quotation was obvious - that anybody who has science and art has no need for religion. If you don't have these, then you might as well take up religion. And do you really have to ask when Goethe lived? 

 

Your statement was unclear and I was asking you to be clarify your grammar. Most people on the planet do not read German poetry and would have no idea who Goethe was or when he lived.


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#20 DrKrettin

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 04:08 PM

Your statement was unclear and I was asking you to be clarify your grammar. Most people on the planet do not read German poetry and would have no idea who Goethe was or when he lived.

 

He is a greater figure in German literature than Shakespeare is in English. Born 1749, I guess he wrote this around 1800. Certainly not the Dark Ages, but a time when it was very courageous to suggest that religion was unnecessary. It seemed appropriate for this thread.


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