DrmDoc Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) Virginia Tech shooter was Asian, Sandy Hook shooter White, Orlando shooter Arab, Dallas shooter Black, and etc, etc, etc. Abortion clinics has been attacked by radical Christians and Radical Muslims shot up San Bernardino. We have had militia standoffs with law enforcement in Neveda and Oregon that have led to fatalities and on and on and on. What is the common denominator? When it is an Arab shooter we debate Islam and ISIS, when it is a White shooter we debate mental health, Black shooter we debate class warfare, are those things truly the common denominator??? Canada, UK, France, and etc have Arabs, Blacks, rich people, poor people, mentally ill people, but they don't have mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting. Their police don't kill thousands of their citizens. I think debating econimcs, religion, and etc is failing to see the forrest threw the trees. We (USA) are violent and awash in guns. As a society we have a bllod lust. Execution is legal here and popular amongst the general population. We invest more more into our military than anything else: education, healthcare, welfare, etc. We invade other countries, openly discuss over throwing Gov't we don't like, and have to debate the ethics of torture as if we honestly don't understand it is wrong to torture. Violence is part of the national consciousness. We must reject violence at all levels to change that national consciousness rather than continuing to compartmentalize it. That means we acknowledge that it is wrong to drone bomb, wrong to execute, wrong to torture, wrong to for police to beat and kill people, and etc. We must start with an open public acknowledgement that killing is wrong and violence only leads to more violence. That should always be the baseline. Stop arguing that violence and killing people is often a needed evil. Micah Johnson thought killing cops was a needed evil and he was wrong!! Although I agree with your call, to achieve its tenets America would have to cease being afraid and end tribalism among its citizens. Essentially, we would have to changed the evolved nature of the American people, which is the nature of every human being on this planet in my opinion. I would prefer to live in a nation of equality among its citizens and I'm not an advocate of violence; however, I know that violence is not beyond my nature to employ. Survival of the fittest is how humanity grew its numbers and violence has and will continue to be one of our major tools in that effort until we are able to change our fundamental nature. Edited July 9, 2016 by DrmDoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Although I agree with your call, to achieve its tenets America would have to cease being afraid and end tribalism among its citizens. Essentially, we would have to changed the evolved nature of the American people, which is the nature of every human being on this planet in my opinion. I would prefer to live in a nation of equality among its citizens and I'm not an advocate of violence; however, I know that violence is not beyond my nature to employ. Survival of the fittest is how humanity grew its numbers and violence has and will continue to be one of our major tools in that effort until we are able to change our fundamental nature. I've agreed with most of what you've said in this discussion but for this post I must say "Bollocks". Every other first world country doe not engage in the daily, totally unnecessary, carnage that occurs in the US for wont of the unregulated freedom to own an arsenal, Most of the first world has evolved to control their violence. Please don't conflate what is happening there with the other countries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I've agreed with most of what you've said in this discussion but for this post I must say "Bollocks". Every other first world country doe not engage in the daily, totally unnecessary, carnage that occurs in the US for wont of the unregulated freedom to own an arsenal, Most of the first world has evolved to control their violence. Please don't conflate what is happening there with the other countries. Perhaps you misunderstood, I was trying to say that violence happens everywhere in the world and in the most disciplined societies because it is human nature. We are all violent because that is how we have evolved to survive. Some of us may be better at controlling our violent nature than others but it remains part of who we are and what makes us human. To my point, there will always be violence in America and around the world until humanity evolves beyond its current nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Virginia Tech shooter was Asian, Sandy Hook shooter White, Orlando shooter Arab, Dallas shooter Black, and etc, etc, etc. Abortion clinics has been attacked by radical Christians and Radical Muslims shot up San Bernardino. We have had militia standoffs with law enforcement in Neveda and Oregon that have led to fatalities and on and on and on. What is the common denominator? When it is an Arab shooter we debate Islam and ISIS, when it is a White shooter we debate mental health, Black shooter we debate class warfare, are those things truly the common denominator??? Class warfare is not racially divided as many seem to think, the powers in charge like to heap the blame on race but ultimately it will be the haves vs the have nots. Any who thinks it's only black people who are vulnerable have no idea how this game is playing out. If a black man can be killed out of hand, it looks superficially like it's because he is black but ultimately it is because he is part of the have nots. Yes white people do seem to get a pass in many instances but it will eventually affect all of the have nots. If one person can be treated as though his life is less valuable then all of us are at risk. Cases recently of the haves getting off with nothing much more than a slap on the hand for crimes that the rest of us, regardless of race, would be put under the jail if we were lucky. Money talks, money gets pass far more than race, if you think your light skin gives you a pass try to get by with a crime of the magnitude of child molestation with just a few months time served, or drive drunk and kill several people and see if you get a pass. The good old boys network is still in force but it is getting much more apparent that it's the good old rich boys network... The fact that the good old rich boys are blatantly racist is covering the real problem, and doing it quite well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Although I agree with your call, to achieve its tenets America would have to cease being afraid and end tribalism among its citizens. Essentially, we would have to changed the evolved nature of the American people, which is the nature of every human being on this planet in my opinion. I would prefer to live in a nation of equality among its citizens and I'm not an advocate of violence; however, I know that violence is not beyond my nature to employ. Survival of the fittest is how humanity grew its numbers and violence has and will continue to be one of our major tools in that effort until we are able to change our fundamental nature. I think a lot of progress can be made with just some changes in the way our leaders talk about issues. Over the last 30yrs we have increasingly spooled our rhetoric up. It isn't enough for a politician to say there want to stop terrorism all politicians feel compelled to say they will "capture of kill" terrorists. It isn't enough for a Law Enforcement official to say they want to reduce or stop crime they all feel compelled to say "arrest and punish criminals to the full extend of the law". The difference is subtle yet substantial. Killing terrorist rather than stopping them and punishing criminals rather than stopping them are two simple examples where our (USA) leadership invokes retribution. Human nature matters and obviously we won't achieve a society with zero violence. However I do not feel achieving a society with less violence than we currently have is that tall an order. I honestly believe that just being a little more care in how we discuss issues would change things. It would shift the focus from that of retribution towards prevention. What we focus on has an impact on our national consciousness. While race, religion, economics, and etc seem like they are the issues driving violence they are not necessarily. A person can be racist, poor, and religious without being violent. While I would love to see racism, sexism, and etc driven out of our society I do not think that lofty is required in order to reduce violence. I am biased about men who style their hair in man buns yet I am not violent towards them. Disliking things, hold different opinions, and being violent are not equals. I think the violent issue can be addressed without changing or evolving the nature of every human on earth. Perhaps you misunderstood, I was trying to say that violence happens everywhere in the world and in the most disciplined societies because it is human nature. We are all violent because that is how we have evolved to survive. Some of us may be better at controlling our violent nature than others but it remains part of who we are and what makes us human. To my point, there will always be violence in America and around the world until humanity evolves beyond its current nature. There will always be violence but it can be reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 My point was that no one knows what I have in my house other than two barking dogs, if I posted a sign in my yard telling everyone a gun lives here then criminals would know for sure. As it stands now they do not know.. Which is completely beside the point. The original claim to which I responded was a general statement, not a specific one about you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 There will always be violence but it can be reduced. I agree, but have little faith in our national will and, perhaps, too much faith in human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I agree, but have little faith in our national will and, perhaps, too much faith in human nature. I am hopeful. I actually think all this violence is the death throes of various idealogies that have been dividing society over the last few decades. Political loses this year will force evolution within our major parties. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) I am hopeful. I actually think all this violence is the death throes of various idealogies that have been dividing society over the last few decades. Political loses this year will force evolution within our major parties. I think you're right particularly with the GOP moving forward. They have, perhaps more than ever, become the party of intolerance and bigotry. Whether their Presidential candidate wins or loses, I agree a major social shift is in progress. Edited July 9, 2016 by DrmDoc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I think you're right particularly with the GOP moving forward. They have, perhaps more than ever, become the party of intolerance and bigotry. Whether their Presidential candidate wins or loses, I agree a major social shift is in progress. That is exactly what I was referencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 And actually, we don't let crazy people have firearms. I think you will find that you do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) I think you will find that you do. It's easier to spot the crazies than it is to find the sane ones. Edited July 9, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I think you will find that you do. From what I've seen the grade of "crazy" seems to be given after the fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Let's not turn this into yet another gun-control back and forth. There is a huge amount of room in the Politics forum and we already have threads on gun control - can we focus please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 The protests have spread and there has been some arrests. I don't know a full scale riots are going to happen - lets hope not. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36757456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 The protests have spread and there has been some arrests. I don't know a full scale riots are going to happen - lets hope not. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36757456 No riots yet; primarily vocal and peaceful protests with the exception of several blocked thoroughfares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 No riots yet... Meaning you think it may well go that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Meaning you think it may well go that way? Sadly, there is an element of these protests with that potential--unscrupulous opportunist (e.g., Dallas sniper, looters, etc.). A fraction of those who engage these protests do so for the anarchic pleasure and opportunity to engage their illicit predilections to the unfortunate detriment of a noble cause. Edited July 10, 2016 by DrmDoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 I don't think the incidents that lead up to this had much to do with race. A bigger factor was stupidity. If a cop tells you to keep your hands where he can see them, do so. Don't try to show him the license for the gun you are carrying. He doesn't know what you're reaching for ! You may have been stopped yet again, unfairly just because you're black, but you'll still be alive. If you show a gun to people while selling CDs so that they call 911, don't resist and fight with cops when they show up. They don't know your intentions and that you're a nice guy. Surrender the weapon and you'll be alive. Last Sunday in Toronto we had our annual Pride parade. It was hijacked by BLM protesters who did not approve of cops marching in the parade. Their bright idea was to throw smoke bombs and fire-crackers in the way of the parade. This is only a short time after the Orlando shootings ! Luckily cooler heads prevailed, but I'd hate to think how it would have gone down in the US. Like I said earlier, cops don't have a 'quota' of black people to kill. They are just like you and me, so obviously there are some bad ones, and you may be subjected to some abuse. But unless you do something stupid, you'll live to file a complaint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) But unless you do something stupid, you'll live to file a complaint. It does make me wonder... I mean if you are a black person in the US, you think that all cops are trigger happy and just waiting to kill another black person, then why would you give them the slightest reason to shoot? But then this is my simplistic view - I am not stopped by the police every time I leave my house. Edited July 10, 2016 by ajb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 I tend to agree with you AJB, although it shouldn't be that way. I think the guy selling CDs would have suffered the same consequences no matter what his 'race'. And the guy in the car may have also been shot if he was white, but he might not have been pulled over to begin with if he was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 It is hard for us as outsiders here to fully understand. The UK and Canada have far less race issues and far less guns on the street. The question of the whole social system in the US also comes up. At the risk of going off topic... I was very upset when watching a medical documentary set in the US. A young black man had some real problems with growths on his face - it was genetic and no cure exists. These growths cost him am eye, he had trouble eating and breathing. He had many minor operations, just enough to stop him dying. It took a rich donnor to pay for a larger oepration that would actually drastically change his life and not just prevent him from dying. This is disgusting to me. The US is very rich and yet unless you actually have money your basically not worth saving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) If a cop tells you to keep your hands where he can see them, do so. Don't try to show him the license for the gun you are carrying. He doesn't know what you're reaching for ! You may have been stopped yet again, unfairly just because you're black, but you'll still be alive. What if he ask you for your license and while you're reaching, the officer shoots you anyway? In the Minnesota case, it's my understanding that the officer asked for the driver's license and while the driver was complying, the driver informed the officer he was licensed to carry, at which point, the officer proceeded to simultaneously shoot (5x) and tell the driver to stop his motion. If this scenario is true the officer, at the very least, should have given the driver an opportunity to stop his motions before the officer discharged his weapon. Also, I don't think it's good policing policy to discharge a weapon into a car with potentially innocent bystanders, particularly, a child. If you show a gun to people while selling CDs so that they call 911, don't resist and fight with cops when they show up. They don't know your intentions and that you're a nice guy. Regardless of race in America, we should all obey an officer's order if we want to live; however, I hardly see the need to shoot a struggling man, held down by two officers, 4 to 5 times because he has a weapon in his pocket and not in his hand. Edited July 10, 2016 by DrmDoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 ... we should all obey an officer's order if we want to live No! This is is a mad statement! You should not be in fear of your life when dealing with an officer of the law! An officer can and should only use leathal force if he/she has reasonable reason to think that they are in danger and/or they have reasonable reason to think that members of the public are in danger. In fact this is your law... police can no longer (I forget since when) shoot a person fleeing, unless the above criteria is met. Police cannot kill people because they did not follow an officer's directions to the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) No! This is is a mad statement! You should not be in fear of your life when dealing with an officer of the law! An officer can and should only use leathal force if he/she has reasonable reason to think that they are in danger and/or they have reasonable reason to think that members of the public are in danger. In fact this is your law... police can no longer (I forget since when) shoot a person fleeing, unless the above criteria is met. Police cannot kill people because they did not follow an officer's directions to the letter. Mad? Perhaps; however, an officer, being human and fearful, can misconstrue noncompliance as a threat and, conceivably, be exonerated by the laws he's sworn to uphold. Also, the laws on shooting fleeing suspects aren't uniformed throughout the states. Fleeing suspects continue to be shot, particularly if they are fleeing with a weapon. Some survive, some don't. Edited July 10, 2016 by DrmDoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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