4 hours ago, MigL said:

You would have to look far and wide to find one, in the current American Government.

Being an elected official in America, I can state affirmatively there are a lot of good, smart and caring people in our government. The problem is it seems to be a growing minority of those who wield power on a national and international scale.

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

lso, it is not just America. Looking at Alberta right now, and the number of MAGA hats is worrisome.

People who are bitter about the way they've been treated, can always be taken advantage of, by people who will exploit that bitterness.
A Hitler, and other historical tyrants knew that.
D Trump and the Alberta separatists know it also.

4 hours ago, npts2020 said:

Being an elected official in America, I can state affirmatively there are a lot of good, smart and caring people in our government.

By American Government I specifically mean Federal Administration, and members of House and Senate who would rather cover their assess than risk opposing D Trump, and having him support a primary opponent.
Funny how, as soon as they lose to a Trump endorsed opponent, they all grow a set.

I guess opportunism is more important than honesty and moral/ethical principles.
( oh, I forgot, these are politicians )

8 hours ago, MigL said:

People who are bitter about the way they've been treated, can always be taken advantage of, by people who will exploit that bitterness.

It’s also people bitter about the way they think they’ve been treated, as the exploiters weave a fiction about that. Find a scapegoat and make people afraid of and/or hate that group; they are made to be the source of all the problems. Often the scapegoats are a small minority.

e.g. “Illegal immigrants are taking your jobs and housing” is generally not true, but it sure riles some people up.

17 hours ago, npts2020 said:

Being an elected official in America, I can state affirmatively there are a lot of good, smart and caring people in our government

One of the hardest things to watch the past 1.4 years is the turnip regime weeding them out at the federal level (and sometimes pressuring this at the state level, in redder states). Or in the legislative branch applying various kinds of coercion to get formerly decent people to align with the kakistocracy and try to sell that package of harebrained ideas and incompetent execution to their constituents. Hoping people like you at state/muni level can keep holding the line.

13 hours ago, MigL said:

People who are bitter about the way they've been treated, can always be taken advantage of, by people who will exploit that bitterness.
A Hitler, and other historical tyrants knew that.
D Trump and the Alberta separatists know it also.

And underlying the bitterness, the psychologists tell us, is shame, pure and simple. Shame they didn't make better choices. Shame they didn't learn to read and spell well like other people can. Shame they haven't become as wealthy as they think they deserve. Shame that some people are doing better than they are when they shouldn't, based on skin color or gender or nationality or some other irrelevant factor. And humans don't generally handle shame very well. Promise them a target other than themselves and their shame and many will happily change their aim.

TFG may understand manipulation, but I think he's also, buried deep in his psyche, deeply ashamed of what he's done in his life, or at least afraid of what might happen if the whole truth comes out. He defends his actions with almost every breath, which is part of why he lies so much, but in the end it's the shame that seems to drive him.

14 hours ago, MigL said:

People who are bitter about the way they've been treated, can always be taken advantage of, by people who will exploit that bitterness.
A Hitler, and other historical tyrants knew that.
D Trump and the Alberta separatists know it also.

The big issue is that what happened doesn't even have to be true. You just have to make feel true. As Swansont mentioned, it is easy to do by scapegoating someone and it is a well honed tradition to do so. It also comes naturally to folks like Trump who really do not have understanding or expertise in doing policies that actually make things better.

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

TFG may understand manipulation, but I think he's also, buried deep in his psyche, deeply ashamed of what he's done in his life

In his life ?
I really didn't care because I don't run in his circles, and don't frequent casinos so I don't care how many he bankrupts.

What about all the stupidity he's committed in the last year and a half since he took over the Presidency ?
What about all the stupidity of launching a war, almost 4 months ago, and then begging his enemies to sign an MoU that allows them to keep doing everything they were previously doing, and American taxpayers will contribute 300 Billion for reconstruction.

Its amazing that there are still so many Americans who continue to support the The Fu*king Goof.

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

doesn't even have to be true. You just have to make feel true

But what, exactly, did these Americans feel slighted about, and whose bitterness D Trump used to his advantage to get re-elected ? It's not like Weimar Germany in 1922, where a wheelbarrow full of Deutschemarks are needed to buy a loaf of bread.

Sure, there's no universal Health Care, and a serious gun problem, but inflation under J Biden was coming down faster than any other country, and unemployment was low enough not to matter much.

It was among the best countries in the world, and now they are hated by everyone in the world.
In less than 2 years he has destroyed the international goodwill America took 100 years to build, and has actually ruined, not improved or gained nationally.

Edited Friday at 08:02 PM5 days by MigL

46 minutes ago, MigL said:

But what, exactly, did these Americans feel slighted about, and whose bitterness D Trump used to his advantage to get re-elected ? It's not like Weimar Germany in 1922, where a wheelbarrow full of Deutschemarks are needed to buy a loaf of bread.

I think some specifics have shifted, especially related to COVID-19 but there are some general themes that come up. One is often economic concerns, often rather diffuse, and also globalism. But these tend to be soft arguments and some studies looking at more solid aspects have a few common elements. One is simply the fear of status loss. It is a diffuse, emotional angst that interestingly is independent of their actual economic situation. I.e. folks with high socioeconomic status react similar to the same cues as folks who are at a lower status.

This fear is strongly connected to another aspects, the appearance of the "the others". That is often seen in a racial light (sometimes hard, sometimes soft) but increasingly plays out on the ideological range, too (e.g. left vs right; dems vs reps etc.). The idea here is that if the other is more visible, it will diminish my status.

And I think this is the real threat. If all had a rational basis, such as measurable economic situation, conventional wisdom would tell you that addressing the economy would tangibly shift perception. That happened in the Weimar Republic. Following the treaty of Versailles, the extreme right and left made rapid gains, but by 1928 the centrist and the SPD made promises for more welfare spending and brought the hyperinflation you mentioned under control. But then in 1929 the Wall street crash happened and we all know what happened afterwards.

The issue now is that the perception has increasingly decoupled from facts, and this is something that is happening across virtually all sectors (heck, even things like the evaluation of Musk's company could fall under that). US economy stabilized under Biden, but the perception was that somehow it was worse. It worsened under Trump, but some folks feel that they are on the winning side (despite losing out on cash). We are increasingly going into a "feel" society, which I think is largely driven by tech-created disruption of information streams. We do not have a diversity of opinions anymore, but a diversity of realities.

In think that part is a grand challenge for the coming generation, and we are only vaguely aware of it and certainly not equipped to deal with it. Moreover, with AI taking over the internet, the reality distortion will ramp up to massive levels in the next few years. I do not think anyone living now will have a strategy to deal with that.

2 hours ago, MigL said:

But what, exactly, did these Americans feel slighted about, and whose bitterness D Trump used to his advantage to get re-elected ?

From what I can tell, they feel they deserve more than what they have. They see others, of whom they think less, who have more, so it’s unfair. Also perhaps fed by misperceptions, like that there are more of “them” than there really are.

But there’s also an attitude of making sure people who you don’t like don’t get anything, even if it means not getting things yourself.

19 hours ago, Phi for All said:

And underlying the bitterness, the psychologists tell us, is shame, pure and simple. Shame they didn't make better choices. Shame they didn't learn to read and spell well like other people can. Shame they haven't become as wealthy as they think they deserve. Shame that some people are doing better than they are when they shouldn't, based on skin color or gender or nationality or some other irrelevant factor. And humans don't generally handle shame very well. Promise them a target other than themselves and their shame and many will happily change their aim.

That smells a lot like original sin, wouldn't it be nice if we found a way to forgive ourselves?

19 hours ago, MigL said:

In his life ?
I really didn't care because I don't run in his circles, and don't frequent casinos so I don't care how many he bankrupts.

What about all the stupidity he's committed in the last year and a half since he took over the Presidency ?
What about all the stupidity of launching a war, almost 4 months ago, and then begging his enemies to sign an MoU that allows them to keep doing everything they were previously doing, and American taxpayers will contribute 300 Billion for reconstruction.

Its amazing that there are still so many Americans who continue to support the The Fu*king Goof.

He was deeply flawed before he became POTUS, was my point. I wasn't dismissing current behavior based on the past.

19 hours ago, MigL said:

But what, exactly, did these Americans feel slighted about, and whose bitterness D Trump used to his advantage to get re-elected ? It's not like Weimar Germany in 1922, where a wheelbarrow full of Deutschemarks are needed to buy a loaf of bread.

Sure, there's no universal Health Care, and a serious gun problem, but inflation under J Biden was coming down faster than any other country, and unemployment was low enough not to matter much.

It was among the best countries in the world, and now they are hated by everyone in the world.
In less than 2 years he has destroyed the international goodwill America took 100 years to build, and has actually ruined, not improved or gained nationally.

The older Americans felt slighted by all the promises unkept. Where's the trickle-down? Where's the leisure time since robots mean we don't have to work as hard? Where is the improvement in living conditions that have been the hallmark of each succeeding generation?

The younger Americans are being held to standards that don't include them wrt wealth accumulation. They're making barely more than they were when they joined the work force, but prices continue upwards as quality goes downhill. They're told it's their fault for having a poor work ethic when they're usually just refusing to be taken advantage of.

Unfortunately, since humans don't like being at fault, we'll grab any opportunity to point the finger somewhere else. It's far too easy to blame someone who is more relatable than a billionaire, like an immigrant or a person of color or a single mother.

16 hours ago, swansont said:

But there’s also an attitude of making sure people who you don’t like don’t get anything, even if it means not getting things yourself.

I keep seeing a cartoon of how the cockroaches voted "insecticide" because they knew it would hurt the ants. They all ended up dead, including some Libertarian grasshoppers and a housefly who never voted.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

That smells a lot like original sin, wouldn't it be nice if we found a way to forgive ourselves?

I think all the Abrahamic religions are designed to create a hierarchy of judgement and competition. The best way to win is not to play at all.

15 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I think all the Abrahamic religions are designed to create a hierarchy of judgement and competition. The best way to win is not to play at all.

Isn't that always the way, a good idea gets corrupted to the point that the army of the righteously indignant is mobilised by the pious pretender?

What's so wrong with forgiving oneself, the shame of being a human?

Edited Sunday at 12:06 PM3 days by dimreepr

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What's so wrong with forgiving oneself, the shame of being a human?

What a novel concept.
Do whatever the fu*k you want, to whoever you want, then forgive yourself and absolve yourself of any blame or responsibility.

I hope none of his advisors mention it to D Trump ...

Edited Sunday at 03:06 PM3 days by MigL

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Isn't that always the way, a good idea gets corrupted to the point that the army of the righteously indignant is mobilised by the pious pretender?

Try as I might, I fail to see the good idea that got corrupted wrt original sin. Was it the worship? The knowledge of good and evil really doesn't need any gods.

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What's so wrong with forgiving oneself, the shame of being a human?

If you don't play the game, there is no universal shame involved, only what you bring to the table personally. To me, if you're shameful but have to rope all of humanity into your shame to make it more palatable to you, you'll never be able to take real steps to overcome it.

On 6/20/2026 at 11:45 PM, Phi for All said:

I think all the Abrahamic religions are designed to create a hierarchy of judgement and competition. The best way to win is not to play at all.

It brought sanity to Roman empire.

Even if you don't participate in the game it will affect you in one way or the other.

Competition, it has been a good one since it involves acquisition of knowledge, knowledge its self,might be the solution.

Religion fanatics are realizing that,how safe can they be,were it possible for them to posses tonnes of nuclear weapons to threaten everyone and make them submit to their idealogies.

We are at the edge of change,people used to worship moon and stars..once they realize it's a piece of rock rotating around the earth and they they can visit it and stay there for days,while stars are burning gases... perception will greatly change.

AI and intelligent robots will bring Us together,it will scare us and give us something common to be envy and jealous of..this way tension among us will reduce.

19 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Try as I might, I fail to see the good idea that got corrupted wrt original sin. Was it the worship? The knowledge of good and evil really doesn't need any gods.

It's never been about good v evil, it's about fair v unfair; in a village it's easy to see the value each villager brings to our society, in a town our compass gets confused.

The fundamental idea of forgiveness is to assume that we all want to be fair, and imagining the guy, who seems to be unfair, a horrible death, won't make us feel any better, in fact PTSD would suggest we'd feel horrible, if our revenge was actualised.

Your right, we don't need gods for that, but we do need a mechanism of some sort...

21 hours ago, MigL said:

What a novel concept.
Do whatever the fu*k you want, to whoever you want, then forgive yourself and absolve yourself of any blame or responsibility.

I hope none of his advisors mention it to D Trump ...

It's not a novel argument, whomsoever is without sin, cast the first stone...

19 hours ago, Phi for All said:

If you don't play the game, there is no universal shame involved, only what you bring to the table personally. To me, if you're shameful but have to rope all of humanity into your shame to make it more palatable to you, you'll never be able to take real steps to overcome it.

That's exactly what god is for, something to fear, but only, if you know your unfair... It's also what gives the rest of us some hope that justice will be done....

And, as Nietzche points out, we've killed that mechanism...

4 hours ago, MJ kihara said:

It brought sanity to Roman empire.

Are you sure it wasn't the Lead in the water pipes ?

15 hours ago, MigL said:

Are you sure it wasn't the Lead in the water pipes ?

Lead causes neurology disorder and of course mental issues....it could only have increased insanity.

On 6/22/2026 at 10:01 AM, MJ kihara said:

Competition, it has been a good one since it involves acquisition of knowledge, knowledge its self,might be the solution.

Knowledge without the wisdom to use it, is seldom any sort of solution for our future, as our history attests.

Imagine the scenario, in which, you're on the wrong side of a logic gate, that says "it shouldn't be alive, according to our record's it never existed, therefore it's illegal and deserves to die.". Does that remind you of any part of our recent history?