Hello.

Why deflating the first rise of the dough and going trough the delay of a second rise as many recipes call for ? Seems that deflating the first also produces heavier, denser, less airy bread. Is there a reason ?

Should a too crusty bread with lightly raw inside can be improved baking at lower temperature and longer time or that is not the way ?

And third; pre-heating the oven yields a more abrupt rise or a cold start would provide a more uniform rise ?

2 minutes ago, Externet said:

Hello.

Why deflating the first rise of the dough and going trough the delay of a second rise as many recipes call for ? Seems that deflating the first also produces heavier, denser, less airy bread. Is there a reason ?

Should a too crusty bread with lightly raw inside can be improved baking at lower temperature and longer time or that is not the way ?

And third; pre-heating the oven yields a more abrupt rise or a cold start would provide a more uniform rise ?

I am not a baker but my understanding is the second rise gives the yeast time to "digest" the flour properly, giving a more chewy and resilient crumb when the bread is baked and improving its taste. In the UK, almost all commercial bread is now made by something called the "Chorleywood Process", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process , invented after the war and relying on much more yeast and violent mechanical mixing, followed by a short single rising time before baking. In consequence most modern British bread is horrible: a weak texture with little resilience and which dries up rapidly, a kind of biscuity taste - and rather indigestible. One of the reasons why boutique "sourdough" bread is now becoming popular (even I have reluctantly succumbed) is because that is made slowly and avoids these faults.A lot of young people now think that this is a feature of sourdough. It isn't. Properly made bread by the old method is just the same - without the sour taste. As recently as the 1980s one could still find local bakers, even in places that were not very prosperous, that made excellent bread. But almost no one makes it any more.

This, as I say, is just my understanding as a consumer, not a baker, but one who, due to years of rowing, has always really enjoyed good bread - and hates the bad stuff. Someone more knowledgeable may contradict some of what I have written.

You will need someone with baking experience to answer your other questions.

Edited August 14, 2025Aug 14 by exchemist

1 hour ago, Externet said:

Why deflating the first rise of the dough and going trough the delay of a second rise as many recipes call for ? Seems that deflating the first also produces heavier, denser, less airy bread. Is there a reason ?

You only need a single rise for boules and more airy loaves, but for sandwich bread you need a pretty tight crumb. When you punch the dough down after the first rise, you're collapsing the big bubbles of gas you just created. The yeast has mostly been used up by this time, so the gas bubbles from the second rise are smaller, which gives you a denser slice of bread that stands up to sandwich making.

My favorite method is to punch that first dough down just before bedtime, and put it in your loaf pans in the refrigerator overnight. The cold slows the process down and adds a lot of flavor. Fresh egg sandwiches for breakfast!

1 hour ago, Externet said:

Should a too crusty bread with lightly raw inside can be improved baking at lower temperature and longer time or that is not the way ?

Sounds like your temperature was too high. I think you're right, lower and longer should work.

I do the same thing making a larger boule in a dutch oven. Increase the recipe by 50%, so the temp goes from 450F to 425F, time from 40 minutes to an hour.

1 hour ago, Externet said:

And third; pre-heating the oven yields a more abrupt rise or a cold start would provide a more uniform rise ?

This I'm not sure about. I have one recipe where the oven starts cold and I use a bain marie beneath the loaf pans. It always works out well, with a very nice bit of chew to the crust from the extra moisture.

35 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You only need a single rise for boules and more airy loaves, but for sandwich bread you need a pretty tight crumb. When you punch the dough down after the first rise, you're collapsing the big bubbles of gas you just created. The yeast has mostly been used up by this time, so the gas bubbles from the second rise are smaller, which gives you a denser slice of bread that stands up to sandwich making.

My favorite method is to punch that first dough down just before bedtime, and put it in your loaf pans in the refrigerator overnight. The cold slows the process down and adds a lot of flavor. Fresh egg sandwiches for breakfast!

Sounds like your temperature was too high. I think you're right, lower and longer should work.

I do the same thing making a larger boule in a dutch oven. Increase the recipe by 50%, so the temp goes from 450F to 425F, time from 40 minutes to an hour.

This I'm not sure about. I have one recipe where the oven starts cold and I use a bain marie beneath the loaf pans. It always works out well, with a very nice bit of chew to the crust from the extra moisture.

Seems like one should just play around with the tools one has (I have an "always on" oven -actually two at different temperatures,)

I always try to put the bread in as hot as possible without burning the crust but clearly ,from your examples there is more than one way to skin this cat.

I normally make the dough and leave it overnight in the fridge ,taking it out at a convenient time the next day

Just recently I am making the dough very sloppy(I never bother kneading ) and aim for big bubbles of air as that is how I like it.

I don't like white bread ,although if it had a little brown flour through the white that is very acceptable

I also like to throw in some oil as I think recipes often suggest(it seems to soften the crust)

Edited August 14, 2025Aug 14 by geordief

Several snippets of good advice here.

6 minutes ago, geordief said:

I also like to throw in some oil as I think recipes often suggest(it seems to soften the crust)

The decision to use oil (as in Italian bread) or a fat as in Mrs Beaton or the Good Housekeeping is important and does indeed soften the crust somewhat.

It also softens the crumb and improves the keeping quality, which would otherwise go hard and dry quite quickly.

Commercial bakers often add glycerine for the same reason.

56 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You only need a single rise for boules and more airy loaves, but for sandwich bread you need a pretty tight crumb. When you punch the dough down after the first rise, you're collapsing the big bubbles of gas you just created. T

Yeah, single rise bread is prone to large voids or cavities (you must have seen this in sliced bread pre wrapped 'Chorleywood' loaves)

But see also my comment on the yeast.

Achieving an even distribution of air voids and 'crumb' is the objective.

Fat is traditional for taller loaves as it gives a stronger structure than oil. This is also true of cake making.

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Sounds like your temperature was too high. I think you're right, lower and longer should work.

The idea of the initial high temperature is to kill the yeast quickly so that the risen structure remains in place.

You can then reduce the oven temp (if it is a quick enough response) - I suggest some trial and error it will depend upon your loaf or roll sizing.

An nearly enclosed tin will also give a crusty topping, whils providing some protection for softer sides.

Continental loaves are baked on a flat sheet so do not offer such differentiation so are crusty all round.

Chorleywood loaves are steam baked, not dry baked so are not really crusty.

The yeast comes in at least three different forms. (sourdough is a different organism)

Live yeast which is a cake, softer than fudge, This can often be obtained free from a bakerand is added to the wet ingredients.

Traditional dried yeast for two rise method. This comes in dry granules, that can be stored for months.
It need to be activated before use.
That is mixed with blood temp water and a little sugar.
It is then added with the wet ingredients.

Ready yeast also comes in dried granules, which are added to the dry ingredients before any liquid.
It reactivates immediately liquid is added so the dough can be made and used immediatedly.
This is the single rise type.

Breadmakers have some additional techniques.

I should have mentioned that with any cake you mix the dry ingrediants separately, before adding the pre-combined wet ingrediants.

56 minutes ago, studiot said:

Traditional dried yeast for two rise method. This comes in dry granules, that can be stored for months.
It need to be activated before use.
That is mixed with blood temp water and a little sugar.
It is then added with the wet ingredients

Interesting (after some 50 yrs of baking bread mostly for personal use ,I didn't know most of that -or hadn't heard it discussed)

I actually use dried yeast the same way as "ready yeast"

I don't notice any difference apart fron the latter being much more powdery.

I use whichever happens to be available in the shop at any particular time and gave up on the live yeast very early on without really noticing the transition.

I did try making my own sourdough starter for a short period in the past but the taste was quite strong and ,if i remember the rise was fairly unpredictable .

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

The yeast has mostly been used up by this time, so the gas bubbles from the second rise are smaller, which gives you a denser slice of bread that stands up to sandwich making.

Well, also yeast will have consumed a fair bit of the nutrients (at least where they are sitting). I suspect that this is a larger contributor as yeast is fairly resilient.

4 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Well, also yeast will have consumed a fair bit of the nutrients (at least where they are sitting). I suspect that this is a larger contributor as yeast is fairly resilient.

More likely since yeast and sourdough continues to increase until killed by the baking temperature.

Some salt is also added to prevent the yeast growing too much. Commercial bakers often add extra salt to give additional flavour. Cheesemakers and indeed manufacturers of many foods also do this.

13 hours ago, CharonY said:

Well, also yeast will have consumed a fair bit of the nutrients (at least where they are sitting). I suspect that this is a larger contributor as yeast is fairly resilient.

"Used up" was a poor choice of words for what happens with yeast.

Thanks, ladies and gentlemen. (Trying to shift an art into science...🙄)

14 hours ago, geordief said:

...I also like to throw in some oil as I think recipes often suggest(it seems to soften the crust)

Is that added as dough ingredient or brushed on top before entering oven ?

14 hours ago, studiot said:

The idea of the initial high temperature is to kill the yeast quickly so that the risen structure remains in place.

How would killing yeast a bit later not keep the structure in-place ? Would not increase rising until yeast dies a bit later ?

That double-action dry (fermentation + heating?) instant-or-not yeast, will not perform fully if the yeast is killed sooner, or rising by temperature is not about the yeast but something like chemical leavening added ?

Looong ago read sugar feeds the yeast; and salt impairs it. Is it still true ? Having both in a recipe does not make much sense to me.

13 minutes ago, Externet said:

s that added as dough ingredient or brushed on top before entering oven

Frankly (these days) I just empty the flour into a bowl (you can prewarm the flour to hand warm -not hot- if you are in a hurry) and I throw in some dried yeast as well as a good glug of oil -any oil from the bottle.

I add the water and stir it all together(again for speed of rising you can prewarm the water -just not too hot in case you damage the yeast

Again you can (which I never do) add sugar for a quicker/stronger rise.

When the dough has risen in the bowl (either within the hour or the next day if I put it in the fridge-if it is in the fridge it has to be taken out and warmed up again) that is the time to transfer it to a bread tin and wait for it to rise again after which it goes in the oven.

You may already know that strong(ie gluten rich) flour is easier to give a good rise (also white flour rises more easily than whole flour-if I am making rye bread it is much better to use white flour in the mix although there must be ways of making pure rye bread too that i don't know)

1 hour ago, Externet said:

How would killing yeast a bit later not keep the structure in-place ? Would not increase rising until yeast dies a bit later ?

If the bread is still rising its structure is changing, which is unwanted as you should put the risen dough in to cook when it has rised satisfactorily.

There is a rising stage (or two or even three) and a baking stage.

1 hour ago, Externet said:

That double-action dry (fermentation + heating?) instant-or-not yeast, will not perform fully if the yeast is killed sooner, or rising by temperature is not about the yeast but something like chemical leavening added ?

Looong ago read sugar feeds the yeast; and salt impairs it. Is it still true ? Having both in a recipe does not make much sense to me.

The double or treble rising happens before baking at much cooler temperatures.

For ordinary bread the optimum rising temp is somewhere between 25 and 30 degrees C.

Yes sugar is there to start the dry yeast off. You do not need it for 'live' yeast paste.
You do not want the yeast to have too much sugar as you want it to digest the flour protein (gluten) into more nourishing protein.

It is also a question of controlling the rate of biochemical reaction between the yeast and the flour.
( A little) salt slows it down.

So you heard correctly all those years ago.

Here is the recipe for the rolls is posted a picture of in your last baking thread.

Dry ingredients.

100 grammes wholemeal rye flour
200 grammes strong white bread flour.
700 grammes strong wholemeal breadflour
1.5 heaped teaspoons white sugar
1 heaped teaspoon (sea) salt
2 level teaspoons 'easy bake' yeast granules (for single rising technique)

Wet ingredients.

100 millilitres corn oil
1 very heaped teaspoon malt extract
Warm water to make up to 550 millilitres.

Method

Add the flours together in a mixing bowl, Sprinkle the sugar, salt and yeast evenly on top.
Mix together thoroughly dry.

Put the oil in a measuring jug.
Add the malt.
Pour in enough warm water (from kettle) to make up to 550 ml.
Mix well.

Using a thermometer allow the water to cool to 49 - 50 degrees C

Pur into the bowl all at once and mix in well, untill a good dough is made.

I use a Kenwood Chef for the mixing with a 'dough hook'.
(Pastries and crumbles are better done with a K beater in the Chef.)

Turn out the lump of dough onto a board and divide.

Give a final hand kneading to each divided lump and adjust the

Originally I divided into 2 and filled 2 small bread loaf tins.
But by popular demand I now make 16 medium or 12 large rolls instead, as per photograph.

Put the dough to rise in its baking tin, which should be about half full
I do this in the slow oven of the AGA at about 30 degrees.

When the rising dough has filled the baking tin for rolls or risen about one inch and a half above the top of a loaf tin (This occurs a round about 1 hour later.) it is ready to bake.

I do this by transferring to the AGA hot oven at about 175 degrees C
Bake for about 25 minutes untill the loaf or rolls sound hollow when tapped.

6 minutes ago, studiot said:

If the bread is still rising its structure is changing, which is unwanted as you should put the risen dough in to cook when it has rised satisfactorily.

There is a rising stage (or two or even three) and a baking stage.

The double or treble rising happens before baking at much cooler temperatures.

For ordinary bread the optimum rising temp is somewhere between 25 and 30 degrees C.

Yes sugar is there to start the dry yeast off. You do not need it for 'live' yeast paste.
You do not want the yeast to have too much sugar as you want it to digest the flour protein (gluten) into more nourishing protein.

It is also a question of controlling the rate of biochemical reaction between the yeast and the flour.
( A little) salt slows it down.

So you heard correctly all those years ago.

Here is the recipe for the rolls is posted a picture of in your last baking thread.

Dry ingredients.

100 grammes wholemeal rye flour
200 grammes strong white bread flour.
700 grammes strong wholemeal breadflour
1.5 heaped teaspoons white sugar
1 heaped teaspoon (sea) salt
2 level teaspoons 'easy bake' yeast granules (for single rising technique)

Wet ingredients.

100 millilitres corn oil
1 very heaped teaspoon malt extract
Warm water to make up to 550 millilitres.

Method

Add the flours together in a mixing bowl, Sprinkle the sugar, salt and yeast evenly on top.
Mix together thoroughly dry.

Put the oil in a measuring jug.
Add the malt.
Pour in enough warm water (from kettle) to make up to 550 ml.
Mix well.

Using a thermometer allow the water to cool to 49 - 50 degrees C

Pur into the bowl all at once and mix in well, untill a good dough is made.

I use a Kenwood Chef for the mixing with a 'dough hook'.
(Pastries and crumbles are better done with a K beater in the Chef.)

Turn out the lump of dough onto a board and divide.

Give a final hand kneading to each divided lump and adjust the

Originally I divided into 2 and filled 2 small bread loaf tins.
But by popular demand I now make 16 medium or 12 large rolls instead, as per photograph.

Put the dough to rise in its baking tin, which should be about half full
I do this in the slow oven of the AGA at about 30 degrees.

When the rising dough has filled the baking tin for rolls or risen about one inch and a half above the top of a loaf tin (This occurs a round about 1 hour later.) it is ready to bake.

I do this by transferring to the AGA hot oven at about 175 degrees C
Bake for about 25 minutes untill the loaf or rolls sound hollow when tapped.

Yes I think is the yeast having time to digest the gluten that makes traditionally proved bread more digestible. Since Chorleywood came in, half the country seems to have developed gluten intolerance!

7 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Yes I think is the yeast having time to digest the gluten that makes traditionally proved bread more digestible. Since Chorleywood came in, half the country seems to have developed gluten intolerance!

An interesting coincidence.

😄

On 8/15/2025 at 5:42 PM, studiot said:

An interesting coincidence.

To make pancakes,we take flour, milk, water (mineral water), eggs, and salt. Where are yeast? There isn't any. And most recipes for pancakes, or variations thereof, are similar. You can replace mineral water with beer, or replace milk with cream or kefir, or basically use water + flour.

Most of the world (outside the West) eats pancakes that have never seen yeast.. And they've never even heard of gluten intolerance..

This in case,

this is NOT a pancake:

(this is some kind of pathetic joke about pancakes..)

This is what real pancakes look like:

Pancakes are a very simple recipe. Once you add yeast to it, you'll have to wait hours before you can even eat it..

After adding yeast, a bread-like dough is made, which rises.. If you want to reduce the thickness, you'll end up with a pizza.

It's not what “the average person in the world eats,” because it simply takes time to make it..

They probably invented pizzas for those who can't eat regular pancakes...

19 minutes ago, Sensei said:

To make pancakes,we take flour, milk, water (mineral water), eggs, and salt. Where are yeast? There isn't any. And most recipes for pancakes, or variations thereof, are similar. You can replace mineral water with beer, or replace milk with cream or kefir, or basically use water + flour.

Most of the world (outside the West) eats pancakes that have never seen yeast.. And they've never even heard of gluten intolerance..

This in case,

this is NOT a pancake:

(this is some kind of pathetic joke about pancakes..)

This is what real pancakes look like:

Pancakes are a very simple recipe. Once you add yeast to it, you'll have to wait hours before you can even eat it..

After adding yeast, a bread-like dough is made, which rises.. If you want to reduce the thickness, you'll end up with a pizza.

It's not what “the average person in the world eats,” because it simply takes time to make it..

They probably invented pizzas for those who can't eat regular pancakes...

The thread is about bread, not pancakes. And most of the rest of the world does not eat pancakes.

Edited August 18, 2025Aug 18 by exchemist

19 minutes ago, exchemist said:

The thread is about bread, not pancakes.

The transition from real pancakes (without yeast) to bread (i.e., pancakes + yeast + a lot of waiting) is extremely obvious, so I don't understand why you're arguing about it here..

Have you been asked for your opinion here?

26 minutes ago, exchemist said:

And most of the rest of the world does not eat pancakes.

..can you read English? The whole world doesn't eat that crap that the English call pancakes, I already wrote that...

If you went somewhere in South America, Africa, or Asia and said you wanted something to eat, they would probably pour some kind of paste from a cup onto a pan, stir it a few times, spread it around the hot pan (etc.), and make some kind of pancake. Most people do this with flour because it's the easiest way.

Get your brain out of that hole and go out into the world. Four percent of the world's population lives in the US. 95–96% no.

ps. I would call the differences between these dishes “symbolic”..

This is one of the best things about baking:

butter roll or milk roll..

Today I ate something like this:

yeast cake with blueberries:

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

this is NOT a pancake:

(this is some kind of pathetic joke about pancakes..

Sure it is, at least in the US.

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

This is what real pancakes look like:

And in the US and France (that I know of), that's not a pancake, it's a crepe, or a blintz.

Perhaps you should allow for cultural differences in naming foods. Just a thought. Threads might be less antagonistic.

There's a latke to be said for recognition of cultural variations in naming!

6 hours ago, Phi for All said:

And in the US and France (that I know of), that's not a pancake, it's a crepe, or a blintz.

Perhaps you should allow for cultural differences in naming foods. Just a thought. Threads might be less antagonistic.

Deepl.com (which is not Google Translator, but is better):

English:

French:

What do the French call what Americans eat for breakfast?

which you say is not a 'crepe' ? i.e. what is it from French point of view?

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

There's a latke to be said for recognition of cultural variations in naming!

To me, it looks like a "potato pancake"... ;)

(based on appearance only)

In my language, it is impossible to distinguish between what we call a pancake and what you call a crepe in the US. And so everything turns into a pancake ;)

A pan is an item used to prepare pancakes. Therefore the word pan + cake.

There are special pancake pans, such as these:

They are specially shaped so that it is easy to flip these pancakes over to the other side..

I have several of them. Even more than regular pans.

The pan determines how big the pancake is, because all the batter spreads out on it.

Making pancakes is a real culinary art. Pancakes should be flipped when one side turns golden brown, tossing everything up in the air.

When you walk into someone's kitchen in Europe, you can immediately tell whether they make pancakes or not by whether they have the right pans.

Edited August 19, 2025Aug 19 by Sensei

8 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Sure it is, at least in the US.

And in the US and France (that I know of), that's not a pancake, it's a crepe, or a blintz.

Perhaps you should allow for cultural differences in naming foods. Just a thought. Threads might be less antagonistic.

What @Sensei may be trying to say, I suppose, is that a lot of cultures make use of flat breads, either unleavened like the pooris and chapattis of S Asia, or leavened like naan or the pitta bread of the E Med These may be cooked on the floor of a hot oven, or on a griddle or pan. They are typically made simply from flour, yeast in the leavened versions, water, salt, and often some oil. (I make pooris at home sometimes.)

The distinguishing feature of pancakes however - at least in modern English usage - is a recipe based on eggs and milk as well as flour, to make batter, which is poured into a hot pan where it spreads out into a thin sheet (e.g. in crêpes) and is cooked very quickly on both sides. This is what @Sensei 's recipe and pictures indicate, Thicker batter can make smaller, thicker pancakes, such as the Scotch pancakes I had as a child. (Batter is also used in Britain for other purposes e.g coating fish before deep-frying, or making Yorkshire puddings.) The basic recipe seems to have originated in Northern Europe - and hence is now found in N America. No one in the English speaking world, so far as I know, would describe pancakes, as described above, as bread.

The thread title and discussion up to now have been about the leavening process in ordinary bread-making.

Edited August 19, 2025Aug 19 by exchemist

Hi.

Something that seems I learned here is the amount of desired rise of bread dough is what determines when to start the baking. It is not the moment when ceases to rise any more signaling to start the baking stage as I thought. Then it is another variable in the process.

It's an hour to go, until lunch here, and am not sure I'm going to make it. For me, one thing that distinguishes pan-based cakes or crepes from breads is that the former usually depend on chemically generated C02 for their fluff rather than yeast. (though some breads like Irish soda bread (bliss!) don't use yeast)

On 8/18/2025 at 10:20 PM, Sensei said:

To make pancakes,we take flour, milk, water (mineral water), eggs, and salt. Where are yeast? There isn't any. And most recipes for pancakes, or variations thereof, are similar. You can replace mineral water with beer, or replace milk with cream or kefir, or basically use water + flour.

Most of the world (outside the West) eats pancakes that have never seen yeast.. And they've never even heard of gluten intolerance..

This in case,

this is NOT a pancake:

(this is some kind of pathetic joke about pancakes..)

This is what real pancakes look like:

Pancakes are a very simple recipe. Once you add yeast to it, you'll have to wait hours before you can even eat it..

After adding yeast, a bread-like dough is made, which rises.. If you want to reduce the thickness, you'll end up with a pizza.

It's not what “the average person in the world eats,” because it simply takes time to make it..

They probably invented pizzas for those who can't eat regular pancakes...

I don't see the relevance of this. Pancakes are not bread, nor are they pizza base.

By the way the Romans invented pizza.

Throughout the world there are many sorts of what are called flatbreads, which generally do have yeast in them.

But some of these are 'unleaven bread' and made without yeast.

Bread of this type is mentioned in the bible.

For pancakes I don't see that the diameter of them is relevant.

You should also be aware that the americans use the word biscuit quite differently from Europeans, including the British.

There are other forms of flat cake, some with raising agent, some without.

Indians make japatis from sesame flour.

The Scots make 'dropscones' on a griddle.

The Welsh make welshcakes on a griddle they call a bakestone.

The lightest possible sponge cake has no raising agent. Air is beaten into the mix until the mix is stiff.

@studiot

My entire statement was prompted by the previous comment about gluten intolerance.. except that this claim was untrue, because for most of the world's existence, most people ate baked flour mixed with water = pancakes, without any preprocessing by yeast.. and they had no gluten intolerance.. otherwise they wouldn't survive.. It took some time before someone invented yeast..

"Yes I think is the yeast having time to digest the gluten that makes traditionally proved bread more digestible. Since Chorleywood came in, half the country seems to have developed gluten intolerance!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

From what you can find out online, bread in the UK is not of good quality.

The best bread is in the countryside. Here, they add potatoes to it. It can last a week.

(Not potato flour! That's something completely different!)

I don't think that's what I'm thinking of, but there's an article on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_bread

Edited August 21, 2025Aug 21 by Sensei