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Italy invented the compass.


cheetaman

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2 hours ago, swansont said:
!

Moderator Note

What is your point, and what classical physics is it you wish to discuss?

 

My point is that, how come that rubbish "The Chinese ancient compass" is regarded as a scientific invention by some   "scholars"?

And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics?

Edited by cheetaman
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I'll take a stab in the dark without doing any research on the subject what so ever.  Maybe the Chinese version was a discovery rather than an invention?  They 'noticed' that their iron spoon thing lined up with the North when it was on a slippery surface long before they under stood why it was happening. Thus it is a discovery not an invention....  Centuries later, when magnetism was better 'understood'*, someone in Italy designed a piece of kit based on what they know about iron aligning with the earths magnetic field for the purpose of finding direction.

* - I say 'understood'...  our knowledge is changing all the time - I do not know if they knew about the alignment of nuclei, probably not, but they knew that the metal, for whatever reason, aligned with the north and built a machine to do this accurately and repeatedly.

Just speculation and my wild guess! - Maybe there is another reason - please tell if you find it out. :) 

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3 hours ago, cheetaman said:

 Italy invented the compass.
The pointer of the ancient Chinese compass was as big as a spoon.
The spoon was put on a board, with nothing else.

Compass,  Wikipedia
History of the compass, Wikipedia

Your references seem to confirm that the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It doesn't mention Italy specifically. 

Edit: Just spotted this line from wikipedia: "traditionally Flavio Gioja (fl. 1302), an Italian pilot from Amalfi, has been credited with perfecting the sailor's compass by suspending its needle over a compass card, thus giving the compass its familiar appearance"

So is your point that an Italian developed something that looks more like a modern compass?

As the OP presumably wasn't able to post links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

16 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics?

Seems more like history, to me.

Edited by Strange
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54 minutes ago, DrP said:

I'll take a stab in the dark without doing any research on the subject what so ever.  Maybe the Chinese version was a discovery rather than an invention?  They 'noticed' that their iron spoon thing lined up with the North when it was on a slippery surface long before they under stood why it was happening. Thus it is a discovery not an invention....

The distinction between discovery and invention can be blurred in some circumstances, but I think your interpretation misses the mark. It would, I think, be more accurate to state that the Chinese discovered that certain metal objects pointed in a consistent direction. They then invented an instrument to make use of this discovery.

 

1 hour ago, cheetaman said:

And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics?

I don't think Swansont said it had nothing to do with physics. He asked which aspect of physics you wished to discuss (since this is a discussion forum :)).

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5 minutes ago, Strange said:

Who says it is a "scientific" invention?  What is a "scientific invention"?

Well, I for one just said it was. It is a novel application of materials and objects to take advantage of an observation with scientific overtones. That seems, to me, a fair defintion of an invention.(And as long as it is in quotation marks I'd say I was a "scholar". :))

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1 hour ago, cheetaman said:

My point is that, how come that rubbish "The Chinese ancient compass" is regarded as a scientific invention by some   "scholars"?

That seems to be a matter of history, rather than physics, and the discussion is very, very light on details thus far.

1 hour ago, cheetaman said:

And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics?

Has anybody discussed any actual physics yet in this thread?

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7 minutes ago, Area54 said:

Well, I for one just said it was. It is a novel application of materials and objects to take advantage of an observation with scientific overtones. That seems, to me, a fair defintion of an invention.(And as long as it is in quotation marks I'd say I was a "scholar". :))

I agree that it could be classified as an invention, but a scientific invention? It wasn't really developed with the modern concept of science. But maybe noticing that certain materials consistently point in the same direction, if free to move, counts as basic empirical observation.

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22 minutes ago, swansont said:

Has anybody discussed any actual physics yet in this thread?

Alignment of nuclei?  I bet the Chinese didn't know that.... although saying that nor did the Italians in the 1300s.   Phew!...  it seems crazy that the very idea of positive nuclei and negative electrons in an atom was only thought of first just over 120 years ago!  If you look at our knowledge now just think how far we have come since J J Thompson first proposed positive 'plumb raisins' in a negative dough like plum pudding.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, DrP said:

Alignment of nuclei?  I bet the Chinese didn't know that.... although saying that nor did the Italians in the 1300s.   Phew!...  it seems crazy that the very idea of positive nuclei and negative electrons in an atom was only thought of first just over 120 years ago!  If you look at our knowledge now just think how far we have come since J J Thompson first proposed positive 'plumb raisins' in a negative dough like plum pudding.

It's the electron spin and having unpaired electrons, so it even goes beyond Thomson. But the recognition that things are magnetic, and that the earth is, too, is earlier.

But that doesn't seem to be what the thrust of the OP is about.

The thing is, a lot of inventions are crude at the start and get refined over time. So I'm not seeing the reason for the umbrage-taking.

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13 minutes ago, swansont said:

The thing is, a lot of inventions are crude at the start and get refined over time. So I'm not seeing the reason for the umbrage-taking.

Quite. Although it was used to indicate North, the Chinese thing is just a spoon on a board... could you really call it a compass?   Is a pin through a cork put in a bucket of water a compass? A delicately made intricate dial enclosed in brass with a glass covering and a artistically crafted magnetised needle on a spindle above the dial built for the sole purpose of indicating North....  is a compass. I guess it depends on definitions again. Maybe you can call the Chinese one a compass if that was it's specific purpose. idk.  

Regarding Thompson, I only mentioned him because he was the first, afaik, who proposed positive centres in a negative sea...  it was the first eureka moment imo for building a model for the atom.  Obviously taken further by Bhor and then further by more modern models, but I think it was a defining moment (as were Bhors revelations I suppose, but it was built on from Thompsons suggestions and observations). Again though - wow - just over 120 years....  I can't imagine not knowing what an atom is. I can't even comprehend not knowing what it is - it would change the way I think about reality for sure.

Edited by DrP
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3 hours ago, Strange said:

Your references seem to confirm that the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It doesn't mention Italy specifically. 

Edit: Just spotted this line from wikipedia: "traditionally Flavio Gioja (fl. 1302), an Italian pilot from Amalfi, has been credited with perfecting the sailor's compass by suspending its needle over a compass card, thus giving the compass its familiar appearance"

So is your point that an Italian developed something that looks more like a modern compass?

As the OP presumably wasn't able to post links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

Seems more like history, to me.

"... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .."

.............................................................................................................

Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool.

The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO.

 

Photo: The ancient Chinese "Compass",  Sinan.

 

Chinese compass Si Nan.png

Edited by cheetaman
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8 minutes ago, DrP said:

Quite. Although it was used to indicate North, the Chinese thing is just a spoon on a board... could you really call it a compass?   Is a pin through a cork put in a bucket of water a compass? A delicately made intricate dial enclosed in brass with a glass covering and a artistically crafted magnetised needle on a spindle above the dial built for the sole purpose of indicating North....  is a compass. I guess it depends on definitions again. Maybe you can call the Chinese one a compass if that was it's specific purpose. idk.  

Is a sundial a type of clock? It's probably orders of magnitude worse at telling time than state-of-the-art devices than the Chinese device compared to a modern-day compass.

1 minute ago, cheetaman said:

"... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .."

.............................................................................................................

Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool.

The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO.

 

You have made zero justification for your position. 

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Just now, cheetaman said:

"... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .."

.............................................................................................................

Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool.

The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO.

 

What do you mean?  Also - did you read what I wrote above? How would YOU define a compass? Is a needle through a cork in a bucket a compass? Is a spoon on a board a compass? As swansant said above, is a sundial a clock?

 

Just now, swansont said:

Is a sundial a type of clock? It's probably orders of magnitude worse at telling time than state-of-the-art devices than the Chinese device compared to a modern-day compass.

Good analogy - I would say there are arguments both for and against a sundial being called a clock.  Is a watch a clock? I'd say a watch is a clock - I don't think (imo) a sundial is a clock. Depends - is EVERYTHING that can be used to tell the time a clock? I don't think so but would have to study the exact definitions of the words better  -  maybe they just aren't that well defined. 

6 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

"... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .."

.............................................................................................................

Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool.

The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO.

 

Also....   why couldn't these similar devices have been invented by different people in different parts of the world at different times? It was a serious [problem getting lost at sea for any traveller in those days I would imagine...  necessity being the mother of invention and all that.

 

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8 minutes ago, DrP said:

Good analogy - I would say there are arguments both for and against a sundial being called a clock.  Is a watch a clock? I'd say a watch is a clock - I don't think (imo) a sundial is a clock. Depends - is EVERYTHING that can be used to tell the time a clock? I don't think so but would have to study the exact definitions of the words better  -  maybe they just aren't that well defined. 

A clock is anything used to measure time... I would say.

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20 minutes ago, swansont said:

Is a sundial a type of clock? It's probably orders of magnitude worse at telling time than state-of-the-art devices than the Chinese device compared to a modern-day compass.

You have made zero justification for your position. 

If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool.

It is like you do not need someone to explain that 3>2 for you.

6 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

A clock is anything used to measure time... I would say.

No, It is a "compass" in China. You can google "Chinese compass" + "Sinan".

Plus,  The Chinese microchip
The chip was later revealed to be a duplicate of a chip developed in the West,  with the original identifications sanded away.

Hanxin, Wikipedia

 

Edited by cheetaman
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16 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool

Why?

17 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

The Chinese microchip

You make it sound like they have only ever made one!

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11 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool.

It is like you do not need someone to explain that 3>2 for you.

No, It is a "compass" in China. You can google "Chinese compass" + "Sinan".

Googling shows a lot of people calling the Sinan an early compass. Why is it that you believe it does not work? 

 

This video at about 0:25 shows one working

 

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34 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool.

Why?

34 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO.

How do you know it was a scholar? Have you checked the Wikipedia history?

42 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

with the original identifications sanded away.

The idea of sanding something that small is quite amusing 

48 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

The Chinese microchip

It’s off-topic but if anyone is interested in the (slightly bizarre) story behind this: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2006/05/15/technology/15fraud.html?pagewanted=all

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17 hours ago, cheetaman said:

If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool.

Let me guess... You are Italian and you always lived with the idea that the compass was invented in Italy. You saw a mention that it was first invented in China. 

Anger ensued. 

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19 hours ago, swansont said:

Googling shows a lot of people calling the Sinan an early compass. Why is it that you believe it does not work? 

 

This video at about 0:25 shows one working

 

Again, It is another fake one.

I guess you must have no knowledge in physics.
 

1)The book "1421: The Year China Discovered the World. " by Gavin Menzies.
Historians have categorised Menzies' work as pseudo-history.
Menzies' work have been entirely discredited by  historians, maritime experts and oceanographers from China, the U.S., Europe and elsewhere.
Gavin Menzies, Wikipedia

2)The Chinese microchip
The chip was later revealed to be a duplicate of a chip developed in the West,  with the original identifications sanded away.
Hanxin, Wikipedia

 

 

19 hours ago, Strange said:

Why?

You make it sound like they have only ever made one!

Chinese made two, both are fake.


1) The chip was later revealed to be a duplicate of a chip developed in the West,  with the original identifications sanded away.
Hanxin, Wikipedia

 

2) Loongson - Wikipedia

 

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1 minute ago, cheetaman said:

Again, It is another fake one.

What evidence do you have for that?

2 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

I guess you must have no knowledge in physics.

Can you explain why you think it doesn't work?

I have to say that the spoon shape is a very clever way of making a low friction bearing from a material that is, I assume, quite hard to work.

With the added bonus that you can use it to eat your soup afterwards!

4 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

1)The book "1421: The Year China Discovered the World. " by Gavin Menzies.
Historians have categorised Menzies' work as pseudo-history.

Agreed. But how is this relevant to the compass? Neither the Wikipedia page not anyone here has used this as a reference.

5 minutes ago, cheetaman said:

2)The Chinese microchip

That should be: "A Chinese microchip"

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2 hours ago, Silvestru said:

Let me guess... You are Italian and you always lived with the idea that the compass was invented in Italy. You saw a mention that it was first invented in China. 

Anger ensued. 

How about Spanish??

1) In the 16th century , European believed that a few  thousand soldiers  can conquer China.
-- "The Spanish Plan to Conquer China."

2)In 1900, a small European army took Beijing and lost only 60 soldiers.
Battle of Peking (1900) , Wikipedia

 

3) The book "1421: The Year China Discovered the World. " by Gavin Menzies.
Historians have categorised Menzies' work as pseudo-history.
Menzies' work have been entirely discredited by  historians, maritime experts and oceanographers from China, the U.S., Europe and elsewhere.
Gavin Menzies, Wikipedia

 

Beijing 1909.jpg

manchurian army 2.jpg

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