Neuronal phase coherence and synchronicity

[swansont]

 

The enhanced cortical computation by gamma-band synchronicity is a quantum phase transition

of interneuronal activity. (known as "synaptic quantum tunnelling")

 

 

Why can't you give a link to synaptic quantum tunneling? Is it because they all point back to a single article by Beck in 2008, published in Neuroquantology (what I've read is not exactly instilling a lot of confidence in the quality of that journal)?

 

(e.g. searching on quantum entanglement, I see "Can Our Minds Emit Light at 7300 km Distance? A Pre-Registered Confirmatory Experiment of Mental Entanglement with a Photomultiplier" in which they are detecting hard UV/soft x-rays (65 eV) they claim are emitted by the mind. WOW!)

 

edit: The abstract is misleading. They say 65 eV photons, but it's 65 eV total for ~20 photons, so it's just UV.

[tkadm30]

 

 

Why can't you give a link to synaptic quantum tunneling? Is it because they all point back to a single article by Beck in 2008, published in Neuroquantology (what I've read is not exactly instilling a lot of confidence in the quality of that journal)?

 

The Beck paper is a famous study about interneuronal/synaptic quantum tunnelling in brain activity: It argue the role of synaptic exocytosis as a quantum-like regulator of neurocomputation.

[swansont]

The Beck paper is a famous study about interneuronal/synaptic quantum tunnelling in brain activity: It argue the role of synaptic exocytosis as a quantum-like regulator of neurocomputation.

 

 

But if it's the only one, then there's no actual evidence that he was right, and if it's published in a crap journal, one wonders about the quality of the work. It's apparently not well-established science.

[Phi for All]

 

I suggest you first complete your education to understand the neurocomputational capacity of the brain. I don't claim to have deep knowledge on things below the threshold of my consciousness. Your emotionality reflects well the state of ignorance you are in when replying with such nonsense.

 

!

Moderator Note

Now that's a HORRIBLE use of the word "ignorant". Why would you respond this way to someone asking you a question?

 

Let me make this VERY CLEAR. When you make scientific claims on this site, the rules say you need to support that with evidence. When members ask you questions about your idea, you answer them as best you can, using evidence to support your arguments.

 

You are demanding that people accept what you say, and this is a science site full of skeptics. You don't get away with such lazy, sloppy, rigor-free arguments. You need to either start asking questions instead of declaring things to be true, or you need to start providing supportive evidence for your claims. If you don't, your threads will be closed, and you can get suspended or banned. These are our rules, you aren't going to change them, it's the way the site administrator wants it to be. Get used to it, please.

 

Next infraction buys you a two-week suspension. I encourage you to assess whether or not our level of rigor is right for your level of willingness to understand.

 

I'm leaving this thread open. If your next response is to this note, or doesn't have any supportive evidence in it, the thread will be closed. I'm trying to give you every opportunity to share your ideas in a meaningful, rational way.

[CharonY]

 

Cortical computation is the capacity to the prefrontal cortex to neuromodulate/fine-tune optimal synaptic connectivity.

 

That implies that somehow the prefrontal cortex influences synpatic connectivity by a computational method, which is kinda silly. In general cortical computation refers to how activity patterns can discern e.g. patterns or information from inputs. As such it is not even necessarily linked to the prefrontal cortex. In fact, most work I have seen (though it is not really my field) seems to be focused on the visual cortex.

 

The review discusses how gamma band synchronization can play basic role in establishing these patterns, rather than being just a secondary effect of the underlying mechanisms, and as such does not actually explain the concept. The scale in question is quite different to effects that would require QT effects (as it deals with, basically, network behaviour and timing).

[DrmDoc]

Thanks for your reply and links. I have not understood yet how neuronal phase coherence correlates to enhanced cortical computations. I suspect that neuronal synchronicity in the gamma band neuromodulate conscious/subconscious processes.

 

Although I've declined further participation in this topic, I continue to follow this discussion and have perused the Neurquantology Journal referenced here. I found this article which, I think, more eloquently explain your topic. From the abstract:

 

Over the past decade, discussions of the roles that quantum mechanics might or might not play in the theory of consciousness/mind have become increasingly sharp. One side of this debate stand conventional neuroscientists who assert that brain science must look to the neuron for understanding, and on the other side are certain physicists, suggesting that the rules of quantum theory might influence the dynamics of consciousness/mind. However, consciousness and mind are not separate from matter. Submicroscopic world of the human brain give rise to consciousness, mind. We are never able to make a sharp separation between mind and matter. Thus ultimately there is no “mind” that can be separated from “matter” and no “matter” that can be separated from “mind”. The brain as a mixed physical system composed of the macroscopic neuron system and an additional microscopic system. The former consists of pathway conduction of neural impulses. The latter is assumed to be a quantum mechanical many-body system interacting with the macroscopic neuron system.

 

 

My interests involve conventional neuroscience and you must admit that this topic is particularly unconventional where cogent discussions depend on a proficient understanding of relevant terminology and quantum theory. Some of us are proficient in quantum theory and others in neuroscience; however, I suspect, many of us are not proficient in either. Therefore, I think it would be help to us--who may not clearly understand your use of terms and references--that you define your uses (e.g., neuronal phase coherence, quantum tunneling, cortical computation, etc.) with more than just a link. Define them with your own words, in layman's terms, as though you are speaking to a general audience. For example, quantum tunneling, as those proficient in physics knows, regards how quantum particles penetrate barriers and is not a term, as those proficient in neuroscience knows, commonly used in reference to exocytosis. Exocytosis regards the process of exporting substances from cells and is only half of the metabolic (energy-using) system of exchanges between cells. The other half is endocytosis, which regards the import process of cellular exchanges. At this point, you may want to further detail your thoughts on how quantum tunneling relates to exocytosis and endocytosis with similarly simple and clear definitions that allow general understanding and participation.

 

In my opinion, I don't think the nature of consciousness on a quantum scale is singularly useful information because consciousness is more than quantum particles or a series of cellular exchanges. Focusing on the "macroscopic", I believe, provides more relevant insight on the functional qualities that combine to produce consciousness. For example, what do you know about our "second brain?"

Edited January 5, 2017 by DrmDoc

[tkadm30]

Music appreciation and cannabis usage may differentially affect long-range synchrony in the gamma-band. Although it has been reported that cannabis disrupts neural oscillations in the gamma-band, I argue that cannabis may "fine-tune" neural synchrony by enhancing musical perception.

 

In contrast, atypical antipsychotics may reduce the power of gamma oscillations associated with learning and cognitive functions.

[iNow]

So, your choice is to ignore all counter points, questions, and valid rebuttals and instead continue rationalizing your decision to get high by posting a bunch of word salad. I suppose that's one way to go about this.

[StringJunky]

So, your choice is to ignore all counter points, questions, and valid rebuttals and instead continue rationalizing your decision to get high by posting a bunch of word salad. I suppose that's one way to go about this.

It does no service to the pro-cannabis camp.

[tkadm30]

I have tried to rationalize my ideas on experimentally accessing the subconscious system via pharmacological activation of endocannabinoid signaling. I think cannabis is a pragmatic learning tool especially useful to do experimental investigations on the psychology of altered states of consciousness.

 

I'm not trying to post a bunch word salad... I'm aiming at both general users and technical users interested in neuroscience and cannabis research to participate in a constructive manner on the implications of neural synchronicity and synaptic connectivity in the neuromodulation of consciousness.

 

I hope this helps.

[CharonY]

It doesn't. Question, though. Do you happen to read papers while being high and feel that you understand them? Have you tried it without and maybe tried to summarize the content in your own words and then explained it to some of your friends?

[iNow]

I'm not trying to post a bunch word salad.

It just comes naturally, eh?

[tkadm30]

It just comes naturally, eh?

 

really, I like your sense of humour.

 

English is not my main language. I try my best to provide a coherent and functional language to make abstractions of concepts/ideas relevant to things like neuronal phase coherence.

It doesn't. Question, though. Do you happen to read papers while being high and feel that you understand them? Have you tried it without and maybe tried to summarize the content in your own words and then explained it to some of your friends?

 

I read scientific papers all the time in english. For me learning new things while being high is a very satisfactory (rewarding) experience. I use online forums to discuss with friends and the scientific community.

[DrmDoc]

I have tried to rationalize my ideas on experimentally accessing the subconscious system via pharmacological activation of endocannabinoid signaling. I think cannabis is a pragmatic learning tool especially useful to do experimental investigations on the psychology of altered states of consciousness.

 

Here's a link to "The Effects of Marijuana on Consciousness." The experiments are ongoing and plentiful, as you may well imagine. There have been studies involving other psychotropic substances with more dramatic effects. Although legitimate research is ongoing, I do not recommend personal experimentation with these substances because of their known and unknown deleterious effects.

 

If altered states of consciousness are your interest, you may want to consider a study of dreaming. Dreaming is that altered state of consciousness we naturally experience without the artificial inducement of potentially harmful substances. Dreaming is an active state of brain function in sleep induced by our brain's metabolic needs and have been credibly acknowledged as a state where many have found the creativity and saliency you spoke about in prior discussions.

[tkadm30]

I just found it this paper about neural communication through (quantum) coherence:

 

 

I propose that synchronization affects communication between neuronal groups. Gamma-band (30-90 Hz) synchronization modulates excitation rapidly enough that it escapes the following inhibition and activates postsynaptic neurons effectively. Synchronization also ensures that a presynaptic activation pattern arrives at postsynaptic neurons in a temporally coordinated manner. At a postsynaptic neuron, multiple presynaptic groups converge, e.g., representing different stimuli. If a stimulus is selected by attention, its neuronal representation shows stronger and higher-frequency gamma-band synchronization. Thereby, the attended stimulus representation selectively entrains postsynaptic neurons. The entrainment creates sequences of short excitation and longer inhibition that are coordinated between pre- and postsynaptic groups to transmit the attended representation and shut out competing inputs. The predominantly bottom-up-directed gamma-band influences are controlled by predominantly top-down-directed alpha-beta-band (8-20 Hz) influences. Attention itself samples stimuli at a 7-8 Hz theta rhythm. Thus, several rhythms and their interplay render neuronal communication effective, precise, and selective.

 

And here's a relevant citation on the definition of "neuronal computation" according to the CTC hypothesis:

 

 

To present such a concept of neuronal processing, I will define as “neuronal representation” the spatial activation pattern in a group of neurons, as “neuronal communication” the transfer of one representation in a presynaptic, or sending, group to a new representation in a postsynaptic, or receiving, group, and as “neuronal computation” the transformation that happens between the representations. This illustrates the central role of communication as the process that implements computation and thereby creates new representations.

 

Lastly, this excerpt suggests a interplay between effective (synaptic) connectivity and neuronal phase coherence:

 

 

The subsequent proposition, that strong effective connectivity requires coherence between pre- and postsynaptic groups, has also been supported. One study investigated the relation between the effective connectivity and the phase relation for pairs of recording sites in visual cortex of awake cats and monkeys (Womelsdorf et al., 2007). For each trial, the phase relation between gamma rhythms at the two recording sites was determined, and trials were sorted accordingly into phase-relation bins. Across all trials within a phase-relation bin, effective connectivity was then determined. This showed that effective connectivity depends on the phase relation. Effective connectivity is maximal for the phase relation at which the two sites typically synchronize. Phase relations supporting interactions between the groups precede those interactions by a few milliseconds, consistent with a mechanistic role.

Edited January 7, 2017 by tkadm30

[Strange]

I just found it this paper about neural communication through (quantum) coherence:

 

And, again, it doesn't say anything about quantum effects. Please stop lying.

[tkadm30]

 

 

And, again, it doesn't say anything about quantum effects. Please stop lying.

 

Interneuronal quantum coherence is discussed here: http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/1355/1/NQ.pdf

 

It seems to me neuronal phase coherence is the same thing: Long-range interneuronal synchrony is a form of macroscopic quantum coherence.

[Strange]

 

Interneuronal quantum coherence is discussed here: http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/1355/1/NQ.pdf

 

 

But the paper you posted didn't mention it. You claimed it did. That counts as a lie in my book. (This "thing" you have linked to appears to be as meaningless as your posts.)

 

 

It seems to me neuronal phase coherence is the same thing: Long-range interneuronal synchrony is a form of macroscopic quantum coherence.

 

"Seems to me" is not a substitute for evidence. (Especially given your record of meaningless nonsense.)

[DrmDoc]

To be fair, this latest link to a Philosophy of Science Archive article does indeed discuss the idea of interneuronal quantum coherence, although the prior link did not. The article discusses this idea at the macroscopic level of neural cell dynamics. This preprint, non-peer reviewed article speculates on the quantum nature of macroscopic neural processes believed to be the basis of consciousness. The article attempts to quantify the synaptic processes of cellular connectivity through the complexities of quantum mechanic models. In it's conclusion, the article proposed a " neuromolecular model for regulation of the switching in and out of the quantum coherent network in the brain cortex" with "possible applications in the analysis of normal and pathological mental conditions". As an example, the article discusses dreaming as "a function of ‘randomly entangled’ cortical neurons without memorizing of the experience." The article further claims that the mechanisms for this model is based on "experimental data collected by numerous researchers", which it regards as evidence.

 

In my opinion, the macroscopic nature of neural connectivity and cellular processes is sufficiently explained by and in the vernacular of current neuroscience without the infusion of quantum theory terminology. Switching the terms for synaptic processes to theoretical physics vernacular may promote clarity for quantum physicists but not so much, IMO, for neuroscientists. The OP spoke of an interest in enhanced mental functions through artificial inducements but it remains unclear--to me at least--how that interest is served any better by a quantum theory perspective than by a perspective in conventional neuroscience.

Edited January 8, 2017 by DrmDoc

[tkadm30]

 

In my opinion, the macroscopic nature of neural connectivity and cellular processes is sufficiently explained by and in the vernacular of current neuroscience without the infusion of quantum theory terminology. Switching the terms for synaptic processes to theoretical physics vernacular may promote clarity for quantum physicists but not so much, IMO, for neuroscientists. The OP spoke of an interest in enhanced mental functions through artificial inducements but it remains unclear--to me at least--how that interest is served any better by a quantum theory perspective than by a perspective in conventional neuroscience.

 

I disagree. Synaptic connectivity may regulate neural communications through quantum phase coherence and synchronicity. The quantum nature of hypercomputation is based on Beck exocytosis model of quantum-like non-local phase transitions and coherence.

[swansont]

 

Interneuronal quantum coherence is discussed here: http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/1355/1/NQ.pdf

 

It seems to me neuronal phase coherence is the same thing: Long-range interneuronal synchrony is a form of macroscopic quantum coherence.

 

 

 

Any paper which includes the claim "the collapse of the wave function is driven by the quantum gravity " can't be taken seriously. There is no theory of quantum gravity. Many of the citations are to arxiv articles, i.e. not peer-reviewed and are hypotheses without experimental confirmation.

[DrmDoc]

 

I disagree. Synaptic connectivity may regulate neural communications through quantum phase coherence and synchronicity. The quantum nature of hypercomputation is based on Beck exocytosis model of quantum-like non-local phase transitions and coherence.

 

The distinction I've tried to convey is that you are attempting to supplant facts with theories. What need have we for theories when we have incontrovertible facts based on unassailable evidence obtained through empirical research in neuroscience?

Edited January 9, 2017 by DrmDoc

[tkadm30]

 

The distinction I've tried to convey is that you are attempting to supplant facts with theories. What need have we for theories when we have incontrovertible facts based on unassailable evidence obtained through empirical research in neuroscience?

The quantum nature of neuroscience cannot be ignored. In my opinion it is a mistake to not consider quantum-like presence in biological systems.

[DrmDoc]

The quantum nature of neuroscience cannot be ignored. In my opinion it is a mistake to not consider quantum-like presence in biological systems.

 

If I may inquire, what are the practical applications of this quantum approach beyond those conventional neuroscience provides? How is this information uniquely useful or more useful than what we already know through traditional neurological research?

[Strange]

The quantum nature of neuroscience cannot be ignored.

 

 

The quantum nature of neuroscience has not been established.