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Itoero

Would the world be a better place without religion?

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I am glad you deleted your post. You know that it was wrong to post an assertion like the one you did and you know it was only meant to infuriate me. I thank again for deleting it.

I am just looking for data to support the point. (Made more complicated by the fact you shifted the goalposts...)

Edited by Strange

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Zapatos is right, I do not want to debate this. It was a mistake for me to participate in yet another religion thread.
Strange - please don't bother, don't lure me back in.

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The causes are fairly well researched. As well as perceived injustice, there is also state sponsorship as well as traditional and ancient rivalries (such the shia-sunni schism).

 

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=causes+terrorism

 

 

I'm not sure what logic that is.

That's the great power of religion, it creates or makes people think there is social or political injustice. Dimreepr tries to exclude religion. It's Islam that creates Islam extremism.

Sexual terrorism happens a lot in Islam countries and happened in Germany on 2015/2016...its not caused by injustice or oppression.

A girl that has to marry her raper in many Islam countries...I find this a sexual terroristic act.

An apostate risks in many areas to be sentenced to death or risks other forms of punishment...this also a form of terrorism.

Or when people are brutally murdered for adultery...also terrorism.

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That's the great power of religion, it creates or makes people think there is social or political injustice.

 

 

Do you have any evidence to support that.

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Do you have any evidence to support that.

It depends what you call evidence.

 

The Bible teaches that Jews are sons of Satan.

It doesn't matter whether Hitler was religious or not. He definitely used the bible based social injustice concerning Jews for the holocaust.

 

The fact that atheists are often so mistrusted in the US is a social injustice caused by religion.

 

The mal treatment of women in Islam countries is mostly caused by the Quran.

There are many verses about women, this is the 'best' one :

Quran (4:34)

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

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The mal treatment of women in Islam countries is mostly caused by the Quran.

 

 

Or maybe the Quran just documents the existing culture. There are non-Islamic cultures with many of the same attitudes. Including many Christian cultures. Women in ancient Greece were treated pretty much the same as women in places like Saudi Arabia today: not allowed out of the house alone, had to keep their heads or face covered, treated as property of their husbands, etc.

 

Pakistan has more women MPs than many non-Islamic countries and had a female PM before most western countries. When I worked in a University pretty much all of the female engineering students were from Islamic countries.

 

So I don't find the argument that the Quran is to blame very convincing.

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It depends what you call evidence.

 

The Bible teaches that Jews are sons of Satan.

It doesn't matter whether Hitler was religious or not. He definitely used the bible based social injustice concerning Jews for the holocaust.

 

The fact that atheists are often so mistrusted in the US is a social injustice caused by religion.

 

The mal treatment of women in Islam countries is mostly caused by the Quran.

There are many verses about women, this is the 'best' one :

Quran (4:34)

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

 

Well this certainly isn't evidence; you take out of context two highly interpretive text's and demand 'that makes me right'.

 

You haven't even given us a supporting argument for your assertion, all you've done in this thread is dismiss the evidence and reasoned argument myself and others have provided you, you just rinse and repeat 'I'm right cus I say so'.

The Bible teaches that Jews are sons of Satan.

It doesn't matter whether Hitler was religious or not. He definitely used the bible based social injustice concerning Jews for the holocaust.

 

 

Here's a couple of interpretations, that provides a little context and suggests a different more peaceful interpretation.

 

http://jewishstudies.eteacherbiblical.com/did-jesus-call-hoi-ioudaioi-the-children-of-the-devil-john-837-46/

 

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/35154/is-jesus-statement-that-satan-is-the-father-of-the-jews-anti-jewish

 

 

Quran (4:34)

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

 

 

Let me give you a little context: Imagine you live in a gentle peaceful community among a group of warlike communities, fighting among themselves; due to this their society is threatened by a lack of young women, so they take to kidnapping the women they need.

 

In this context taking some precautions would be very reasonable, wouldn't you agree?

Edited by dimreepr

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Or maybe the Quran just documents the existing culture. There are non-Islamic cultures with many of the same attitudes. Including many Christian cultures. Women in ancient Greece were treated pretty much the same as women in places like Saudi Arabia today: not allowed out of the house alone, had to keep their heads or face covered, treated as property of their husbands, etc.

 

Pakistan has more women MPs than many non-Islamic countries and had a female PM before most western countries. When I worked in a University pretty much all of the female engineering students were from Islamic countries.

 

So I don't find the argument that the Quran is to blame very convincing.

Statistics show that education in Pakistan can be characterized by extensive gender inequalities. Girls/women have to face socio-cultural hurdles to acquire education.

 

You find similarities concerning the maltreatment of women between the ancient Greece and Saudi-Arabia? :)

It's the year 2016...

 

The Quran is about 1400 years old, it does not write down existing culture.

The culture that's been written down in the Quran is over a 1000 years old and is the perspective of a particular class. If slaves wrote down the Quran you would get a completely different book.

 

In order to understand the socio-politics in Islam countries, you need to have knowledge of the Quran.

Edited by Itoero

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Where doe you get those da

 

I can't wait to see your reply to my post... :)

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I can't wait to see your reply to my post... :)

You give zero evidence...like usual. Don't expect any more replies from me.

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Statistics show that education in Pakistan can be characterized by extensive gender inequalities. Girls/women have to face socio-cultural hurdles to acquire education.

 

 

And you have evidence that this is because of the Quran?

 

 

 

You find similarities concerning the maltreatment of women between the ancient Greece and Saudi-Arabia? :)

It's the year 2016...

 

Not relevant. You claimed it was because of the Quran. The Ancient Greeks didn't have the Quran.

 

 

 

In order to understand the socio-politics in Islam countries, you need to have knowledge of the Quran.

 

Maybe. But that doesn't mean the socio-political environment is caused by the Quran. After all, there are many Islamic countries with very different political and economic situations. They can't all be caused by the Quran. Or do you think it is only the "bad" ones that are. (Where "bad" means you don't like them.)

Statistics show that education in Pakistan

 

 

Where are these statistics?

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You give zero evidence...like usual. Don't expect any more replies from me.

 

Itoero, with the best will in the world, you wouldn't know evidence if it waddled next to you wearing a christmas hat and started honking while slapping you with a dead fish.

 

 

So it's indeed not a simple causal relationship.

 

Let's return to the above and showing why we need to analyse raw data.

 

So, if there is a relationship it more subtle than A causes B. It's more like A increases B, but only when a certain quantity of C is present, unless a certain level of D is also present... and so on. Are we agreed on this?

 

 

So I don't find the argument that the Quran is to blame very convincing.

 

But it may be a contributing factor. I'm not sure if we would be able detect this given the number of interacting variables and that the actual effect size may be small, but it's worth looking into to.

 

Edited by Prometheus

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But it may be a contributing factor.

 

 

Indeed. But it is probably made even more complicated because the way that particular people or groups interpret the Quran will be influenced by how they feel about their society, their socio-economic status, what they perceive the cause of their problems to be, etc. So there is probably some complex feedback going on.

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You give zero evidence...like usual. Don't expect any more replies from me.

 

I understand your anger and reluctance to engage, reasoned argument that's difficult to refute is a pain in the arse... Am I right? ;)

Edited by dimreepr

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And you have evidence that this is because of the Quran?

The Quran talks degenerating about women and most Muslims are indoctrinated with 'Quran-wisdom'.

The Quran says that salt and fresh water don't mix. If Muslims see that it does mix, then they still don't believe it mixes because the Quran says so. They (not all of them of course) believe a 1400year old book over science. There is evidence for this...have a look on YouTube...I remember a video of Richard Dawkins.

 

Not relevant. You claimed it was because of the Quran. The Ancient Greeks didn't have the Quran.

In the islam countries it's mostly because of the Quran. I never said only the Quran can cause the maltreatment of women.

 

Maybe. But that doesn't mean the socio-political environment is caused by the Quran. After all, there are many Islamic countries with very different political and economic situations. They can't all be caused by the Quran. Or do you think it is only the "bad" ones that are. (Where "bad" means you don't like them.)

The Quran is not the only cause, there are other factors that play a role.

 

Where are these statistics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_education_in_Pakistan#Statistics

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The Quran talks degenerating about women and most Muslims are indoctrinated with 'Quran-wisdom'.

 

 

Your beliefs and assertions about this are not evidence of the role of the Quran compared with other influences.

 

 

 

There is evidence for this...have a look on YouTube...I remember a video of Richard Dawkins.

 

YooToob is not a credible source,

 

 

 

In the islam countries it's mostly because of the Quran.

 

Still waiting for evidence ...

 

 

Thank you. It would be nice to see comparisons with other countries, to see how Pakistan compares.

 

Interesting to see that there are more women than men in higher education ...

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I think Itoero, koti, and myself have all learned a valuable lesson here that we should recognize and apologize for immediately, and that's that things like suicide bombings, beheadings, subjugation of women, anti-semitism, and other atrocious offenses to humanity have nothing to do with religious ideology, and that we are all in fact bigots for thinking otherwise. When a person yells "Allah Akbar" before detonating themselves and other innocent people, there's no way that behavior can be linked back to the doctrines of Islam. When people in the United States push to remove marriage equality, that's in no way related to Christianity. Its absurd and bigoted of us to worry about these things because there is obviously no link whatsoever between the belief systems these people claim to embrace and their actions. We should all let go of the obvious hate in our hearts and be tolerant of these people and their beliefs as they've always been of us and ours. I apologize for being such a hateful bigot. I love these belief systems so much now that I think I'm going to convert back to Christianity. I just love how inclusive and non-divisive it is. Maybe I'll become a muslim. Islam is even better. It is the ultimate deterrent of terrorism and genocidal hate. Christianity is also the most enlightening doctrine and is the ultimate source of truth about the cosmos and all other facts. It is also the biggest deterrent of homophobia, sexism, and ignorance. I pray that God will forgive me for how intolerant, hateful, and blind I've been for so long.

Edited by Tampitump

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I think Itoero, koti, and myself have all learned a valuable lesson here that we should recognize and apologize for immediately, and that's that things like suicide bombings, beheadings, subjugation of women, anti-semitism, and other atrocious offenses to humanity have nothing to do with religious ideology, and that we are all in fact bigots for thinking otherwise. When a person yells "Allah Akbar" before detonating themselves and other innocent people, there's no way that behavior can be linked back to the doctrines of Islam. When people in the United States push to remove marriage equality, that's in no way related to Christianity. Its absurd and bigoted of us to worry about these things because there is obviously no link whatsoever between the belief systems these people claim to embrace and their actions. We should all let go of the obvious hate in our hearts and be tolerant of these people and their beliefs as they've always been of us and ours. I apologize for being such a hateful bigot. I love these belief systems so much now that I think I'm going to convert back to Christianity. I just love how inclusive and non-divisive it is. Maybe I'll become a muslim. Islam is even better. It is the ultimate deterrent of terrorism and genocidal hate. Christianity is also the most enlightening doctrine and is the ultimate source of truth about the cosmos and all other facts. It is also the biggest deterrent of homophobia, sexism, and ignorance. I pray that God will forgive me for how intolerant, hateful, and blind I've been for so long.

 

Unfortunately it is this kind of hyperbole and appeal to emotion that I have come to expect from so many people now. Someone disagreeing with you is not a personal attack and you should not take it that way. Logical, evidence based debate is what we do here. You needn't respond with straw-men and appeals to emotion.

Edited by zapatos

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Unfortunately it is this kind of hyperbole and appeal to emotion that I have come to expect from so many people now. Someone disagreeing with you is not a personal attack and you should not take it that way. Logical, evidence based debate is what we do here. You needn't respond with straw-men and appeals to emotion.

Your political-correctness throws those suffering under these doctrines under the bus and exonerates those who carry out its tenets. There is a smoking gun in the room, and the smoke is thicker than molasses. Yet you would rather sit around with your so-called "logic" and try to find every other reason to explain away these atrocities as anything other than the consequences of genuine belief in religious precepts. If not for the religious prescription to do so, why would people oppose things like same-sex marriage, or deny well-understood scientific facts? What other motivation would there be for this? It is peculiar how most people embrace science on matters that do not directly conflict with their religious worldview, but they vehemently oppose the sciences that do (i.e. evolution). What other support is there for things like Jihad? Why would such staggering amounts of young men commit suicide attacks on innocent people if they were not indoctrinated by a religious ideology that tells them it's a noble thing to do, and that there will be subsequent rewards for them afterwards? Why would women be forced at the threat of corporal punishment to cover their entire bodies? Why would Jews, Christians, and apostates merit the label "infidel" and be the subject of ISIS' mission to destroy the west? Do you not realize that in Islamic doctrine war with the infidel forces is the key to bringing on armageddon? These religious doctrines are overflowing with homophobia, sexism, and genocidal hatred.

 

What geopolitical issue makes men in the Middle East get up in the morning and think, "You know what, I think I feel like throwing a gay person from the rooftop today"?

 

Your position is grotesque. It is offensive to anybody with a basic sense of reason and logic. It is offensive to the people who suffer daily under these oppressive prescriptions. Just simply asking these people why they are doing what they do will reveal that they truly believe in the doctrines that influence their behavior. Just go read what is written in the Dabiq.

 

Denying the link between doctrine and terrorism is just about one of the most asinine positions you can hold. Its like denying the link between smoking and lung cancer. Find me another culture where suicide attacks are a problem. I bet either 1) You won't be able to, or 2) If you can, its probably linked to religious dogma in some way. The kamikazes and Tamil Tigers are not comparable to Islamic terrorism because these things only occurred for a brief period. They were not a recurring threat. Now that we've had 9/11 and the many subsequent attacks around the world, it is safe to say that we are dealing with influence of a genocidal religious ideology. And ISIS is not the only offender. Its the illiberal beliefs and practices of these cultures in general that persecute people by the millions every single day.

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I think Itoero, koti, and myself have all learned a valuable lesson here that we should recognize and apologize for immediately, and that's that things like suicide bombings, beheadings, subjugation of women, anti-semitism, and other atrocious offenses to humanity have nothing to do with religious ideology, and that we are all in fact bigots for thinking otherwise.

 

 

No one said that, so that is a ludicrous caricature and a straw man fallacy.

 

If all you have is sarcastic comment, it may be better not to post.

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Your position is grotesque.

 

Just so we are on the same page here, would you be so kind as to tell me just what you believe my "position" to be?

 

I'm curious what you found in my handful of posts on this subject that led you to conclude my position is grotesque.

 

It would be helpful if you could cite specific examples.

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Your political-correctness throws those suffering under these doctrines under the bus and exonerates those who carry out its tenets. There is a smoking gun in the room, and the smoke is thicker than molasses. Yet you would rather sit around with your so-called "logic" and try to find every other reason to explain away these atrocities as anything other than the consequences of genuine belief in religious precepts.

 

Being overly PC might exist. Asking for evidence is not it. The day we can't ask for evidence without being derided for being too PC, or whatever else, is the day humanity has lost all hope. You rail so hard against religion, yet display dogmatic clinging worthy of any religion.

 

I tried to explain to Itoero why all the instances he sites of Islamic violence are not evidence. They are individual data points, which no one is denying, which when statistically analysed together constitute evidence. The statistical analysis, amongst other things, ensures our emotional biases are mitigated.

 

Itoero apparently didn't like this process: do you also have a problem with it? What part of it is PC?

 

 

There is a smoking gun in the room, and the smoke is thicker than molasses.

 

Its like denying the link between smoking and lung cancer.

 

That's objectively not true - unless you can present evidence as strong as this.

 

If it's so obvious then it should be easy to find some data, do a simple (but rigorous) statistical analysis and put us all in our place. Would you object to that, or is it too PC?

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Sophistry and hubris is all I know. Its far too much fun to utilize the middle finger, rather than the cognitive aspects of the nervous system.

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Sophistry and hubris is all I know. Its far too much fun to utilize the middle finger, rather than the cognitive aspects of the nervous system.

 

Merry Christmas :):):)

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Your beliefs and assertions about this are not evidence of the role of the Quran compared with other influences.

You become a Muslim by saying these words: "La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah"

But one of the pillars of being Muslim is to believe that the Holy Quran is the literal word of God, revealed by Him. In order to be Muslim, you need to acknowledge the Quran teaches absolute morality. You can of course interpret Quran verses like you want.(just like the Bible) If people are taught those verses and the absolute morality then that (for many, not for all of them) forms their personality.

"The Qur'an is the means for discovering the will of God and for measuring the success of a life lived in accordance with it. As such, it shapes the individual and collective lives of Muslims in many ways. "

 

"The Qur'an, which serves as the primary source of Islamic law, advanced the field of law beyond custom and oral tradition."

 

"The Qur'an also functions as a basic source of Muslim education. Although a large majority of the world's Muslim population does not speak Arabic, in most Muslim societies young children learn the Arabic alphabet to read the Qur'an in its original language. The book also provides the first reading lessons for these young students. "

 

"The scripture provides guidelines for social, political, and economic activities. Its teachings on family law guide behavior in marriage, divorce, and inheritance"

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t243/e275

 

Yootoob is not a credible source,

You should watch this:

 

 

Thank you. It would be nice to see comparisons with other countries, to see how Pakistan compares.

Interesting to see that there are more women than men in higher education ...

Yes but that's only for the public sector for degree level education and it's only 296,832 students.

"The gender disparity in education is much lower in urban places vis-à-vis rural areas." => this trend is very hopeful I think.

 

I tried to explain to Itoero why all the instances he sites of Islamic violence are not evidence. They are individual data points, which no one is denying, which when statistically analysed together constitute evidence. The statistical analysis, amongst other things, ensures our emotional biases are mitigated.

Those statistics are just a few of them. Many countries that show likewise statistics are not on that list. Do you deny that Islam and criminality are strongly linked? You know about the punishment for adultery, apostasy an being raped? Islam (the religion of peace :) )teaches criminality and ignorance...

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