MigL

That seems to be a standard retort when people point out that not everything is D Trump's fault. I'm sure you've read my views on D Trump, so that comes across as a putdown, certainly not a valid argument. I don't know what you mean by two, as I only asserted one thing in my reply to you, but sure... https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1270099/us-coronavirus-researcher-China-lab-bats-NBC-COVID-19-death-toll-lockdown

This is the political section, so we are discussing the 'politics', not medical preparedness or science. The one part of my post you didn't quote China made it look like they had the situation 'under control' until the middle of January, when cases started showing up in Europe and the US. So most were expecting an 'easy ride' like China, and we didn't 'get serious' until the middle of February, when we realized how quickly it was getting out of control. You can claim the deaths weren't there in China, during the month of December, but the 'latest' ( actual ? ) numbers confirm there were plenty. We didn't start seeing those kinds of death numbers elsewhere until February. And who is B Johnson blaming Stringy ? Apparently the UK is also investigating the possibility SARS-CoV2 was created and liberated from WIV. Again the US ( and D Trump ) are everyone's favorite whipping boy. At least D Trump wasn't dumb enough to get himself infected.

I don't think I'm playing the blame game' CharonY, as certainly there is enough to go around for every state. What I am effectively doing is comparing states to a person. If a person is infected, and he doesn't give clear information about his condition, but goes out and about, infecting other people, why are we suggesting it is the fault of the people, who didn't receive clear information, yet got infected ? The US, and D Trump ( along with Europeans ), have become the scapegoat again. I am saying China knew something was going on in December ( first case in late November ), yet they did not 'isolate' themselves, and passed on 'spotty' information to the rest of the world. The 'fault' that can be attributed to the US and Europe, in the middle of January, is that, instead of 'hoping for the best/planning for the worst', they 'hoped and planned for the best', after a month of being led to believe/expect the 'best' from the Chinese Government. When 3/4 of the posts in every Corona Virus thread, are about the bad response of the US, how unprepared they were, and what an idiot D Trump is being, I see that as the 'blame game'. China definitely doesn't deserve a 'free pass', or praise, for how it handled things. Their actions deserve a little more scrutiny from the international community. And yes, when people 'seem' to be withholding information, human nature fills in the vacuum, and others start believing something is being covered up.

Because he 'appears' to be supporting the on-line petitioners who want wider distribution of the treatment. "Macron’s closed-door visit to Raoult’s hospital on Thursday came after an online petition calling for wider distribution of the treatment appeared to be drawing support across France." from https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/macron-calls-for-clinical-trials-of-controversial-coronavirus-cure/ar-BB12HAEi?ocid=msedgntp

Italy has currently tested an equal number of people per 1M population as Spain. Roughly twice as many per capita as the US has. Only countries with higher testing rates ( and not by much ) are Germany, Switzerland, Portugal, Israel, Norway, the UAE, Qatar, Estonia, and relatively small countries like Iceland , Cyprus, San Marino, Luxenberg and Andorra. They have done more testing than Singapore and Hong Kong, and double the testing of South Korea. China doesn't even report their testing per capita... https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Then there is the death rate underreporting... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-chinas-coronavirus-death-toll-rises-sharply-after-wuhan-announces/ Maybe world 'pressure' is starting to have an effect. T

And he should be, as the current trials ( including Raoult's ) are inconclusive. But why aren't E Macron and J Bolsonaro ? ( other than the fact that D Trump is everyone's favorite whipping boy )

Well you can call it 'nonsense', but we are having a discussion ( friendly I hope ) of differing opinions. We both seem to agree there seem to be, some signs of a 'cover-up', but, while you're of the opinion similar outcomes for China and the rest of the world, imply there was/is no cover-up, I am proposing the possibility that the cover up is working as intended, and we don't know what is being cover up. If everyone can ( and probably should ) believe the worst regarding D Trump ( sometimes without conclusive evidence, see Hydroxychloroquine thread ), what makes the Chinese Government such 'angels', incapable of wrong-doing ?

What about the links to hypertension/heart disease and diabetes. Is it simply the fact that older people , with compromised immune systems, are also much more likely to have high blood pressure and diabetes ? Or is it likely, at least for hypertension, that common drugs used to treat it, raise levels of the enzyme ACE2. Both, blood pressure medication and SARS-COV2 target cellular ACE2 receptors of cells found in alveoli and small bronchial tubes where O2/CO2 is exchanged. But then, what of Diabetes and heart disease ? ( or am I displaying symptoms of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", A Pope )

D Raoult has conducted trials... "After two studies involving 24 and 80 patients, Raoult presented Macron with a third study carried out on 1,061 patients, but with no control group, of whom he claimed 973 were cured in 10 days. Experts said the lack of a control group meant the results were meaningless." And D Raoult is convinced he has a 'cure'... “I don’t care what others think,” he told his local newspaper La Provence. “I’m not an outsider, I’m the one who is the furthest ahead.”

That is usually the point of cover-ups. But it has changed our response. No-one took it seriously at first, because China, the epicenter of infection, did not seem very worried about it. If our understanding hadn't fundamentally changed, and the gravity was understood at the same time as China did, almost all nations would have stopped flights and closed borders with China, as China itself isolated Wuhan province.

So does D Raoult, the French scientist that President E Macron has placed his faith in.

But they should not give them a pass when they fumble badly, either. Many of us will be skeptical of this report because of the source ( Fox originally ) https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/2-wuhan-whistleblowers-missing-months-after-helping-expose-coronavirus-outbreak-activists-say/ar-BB12HUcu?ocid=msedgntp but if there's even an ounce of truth to it, China has a lot to answer for, and the cover up may be larger than anyone imagined.

Even French President E Macron is calling for expedited trials of Hydroxychloroquine ( in combination with antibiotic Azythromycin ) after discussions with a French scientist who champions its use, D Raoult, as a 'cure'. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/macron-calls-for-clinical-trials-of-controversial-coronavirus-cure/ar-BB12HAEi?ocid=msedgntp Apparently the treatment/cure is also being pushed by J Bolsonaro. Yet D Trump ( however ignorant/misguided ) is the only one being accused of trying to profit, and having monetary interests, in the treatment. Do all three have large amounts invested in this product, or, is it a case of only seeing ( vilifying ) what we want to see ?

Sure but I would be the one to criticize the Canadian Government. I would not expect the Indian Government to criticize the Canadian one, JC. How does the saying go ? " When you live in a glass house, don't throw stones." That is what China should be taking away from this.

So they can deny they messed up because of incompetence and political meddling in their reporting structure ? Of course, they have almost the same excuse. Their political leaders are idiots, and they meddle in things they don't understand. Why apply different standards to the US and China ?

I have read that the funding freeze is for 6 months. I have also read that the US has already made its contributions for the 2 year funding cycle. ( which is at odds with CharonY's claim that the US is behind in their funding ) That being said it is extremely short-sighted; you don't stop funding in the middle of a pandemic. After the problem has been dealt with, you analyze what went wrong, and prepare for next time. But D Trump has an election to worry about, this year, and a lot of blame to shift. The US has certainly made many mistakes in the Covid-19 response, and this could turn out to be a major one. But so has China, and the WHO. China should not be so critical of other nation's stupid actions, lest it be held accountable for its own.

Defence is a national edeavor, Dimreepr. The WHO is a worldwide, multinational organization. Vast difference. China should be the last to complain about the situation the world finds itself in.

I see that this has already been mentioned in the Political Humor thread. President D Trump has announced the temporary cut to US funding of the WHO, in response to alleged withholding of information regarding the Covid-19 pandemic, and parroting of Chinese official 'talking points ( spin ? ). No doubt he will be criticized by many for this action, and it does seem rather shortsighted, to say the least. He is even being criticized by China on the matter. Given that the US is by far, the largest contributor to the WHO, contributing 22 %, almost twice as much as China and three times the amount of the next highest contributor, isn't China being hypocritical ? Maybe they should do as the US has done for so many years, and put their money where their mouth is.

Hypothetical question... Lets assume D Trump really ( I mean really ) messes up the Covid-19 response and mitigation efforts ( by delaying response to the crisis, standing down too soon, pushing for dangerously wrong medications, etc. ), and a very large number of people die, as a result, say several hundred thousand. Could he be charged, by Americans, at the World Court, for crimes against humanity ? Maybe after he's out of office ? Or is that a dangerous precedent to set ?

Don't be sorry. I was asking in case you wanted to make it a threesome...

You two wanna get a room ?

You think its from being isolated ? And they just need a hug ?

So, it is not the Constitution ( as JC suggested ), nor the checks and balances ( as CharonY and Swansont suggest ), that are to blame. Rather, as many of us have suggested for some time, the campaign financing, and lobbying, that are out of control. Will any American politician ever have the ba*ls ( or popularity ) to suggest reform ?

Back in the good old days ( our time ), people had to get wasted on some pretty powerful drugs to experience these sorts of delusions, John. It seems, these days, some people are like that normally.

Huuge ( say it like Trump ) problem with American politics; it's all about the money and the influence. Certainly not about the people, or their well being. It is big business, with their paid for influence, that are pushing D Trump to re-open the country, and get the economy moving again. If it kills a hundred thousand people, no big deal, at least big business will have gotten a return on their investment. I really can't believe D Trump is that stupid to push for early return to 'normality'. If the death toll gets too high he can kiss his chances for re-election goodbye