Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 what do you think about this? Should we have a poll? Should we have a debate? Or is it a non-issue. Can you treat someone with kindness and respect and at the same time laugh at them? Suppose I or some other staff (some supermoderator or local expert or the like) makes of their own volition a pompous statement that seems ridiculous to you. Suppose you cant think of any reasonable response but laughter----it seems too silly to argue with. What should you do? Well probably this has never happened. Our mods are cool people and they never pontificate and say clueless stuff. BUT SUPPOSE SOME TIME ONE DID! What would be the legitimate, socially responsible reaction. Where is the line drawn? What is the allowable response that is the right thing for the community? Ethics, I think, is based on the needs of a community to function happily. I wonder about this. Mods and experts do VOLUNTEER WORK. If they are fair, capable and kind people then you want them to STAY. But if they are thin-skinned and can't stand being laughed at, and you laugh, they might GO. That would be a negative for the community. On the other hand in the REAL WORLD of friends and family, satire and laughter has a regulatory function. Groups of friends regulate each other by KIDDING PEOPLE OUT of some of their stupid behavior. Sometime you just dont know how to say something in a polite non-funny way. Traditionally, on a larger scale, comic movies and theater help correct human vices by satire---by letting us laugh at them---that would be hard to correct by having a serious discussion. WHAT SHOULD WE DO AT SFN? Should we set aside one day a week when you can make fun of mods? BTW do you know the BUBBLE COMMANDS? There are pictures of Ermy and Hitler and Gir. You just have to say bubble="somebody" I particular love the character Zoidberg who I secretly always wanted to be. I, Zoidberg, am sublimely beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcol Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 A bit of a minefield, this one. Have not come to a conclusion (yet), but a couple of thoughts for consideration: The biggest egos usualy reside within the thinnest skin. I do not think it is possible to laugh at someone and still show respect. Laughing with is something else. Any student or member of a hierarchical organisation will know this from experience. Some moderators unfortunately parade their prjudices as a personal religion. We all know how explosive it is to laugh at someones religion. Even I, a short-term member, have become aware of the knee-jerk responses to be expected from some contributors, even mods, and have learned to take their pronouncements with a large pinch of salt and make allowances. A hardworking voluntary contributor is hard to find, and should be tolerated, even with at times some exasperation. Some of the best comedians get much of their humour by poking fun and laughing at others, but but succumb to an apoplectic hissy fit of rage when the boot is on the other foot. I have been disapointed at how some original and to me, thought provoking, contributors such as doctordick have been sneerily rubbished. Some moderators seem to be firmly encased in establishment concrete, and their responses are predictable, which is acceptable because you know where they are coming from. I mean, why ask the pope about abortion, birth control or the virgin Mary, when you already know his responses? If you laugh and show disrespect, he'll send you straight to hell anyway. Very one-sided. Just some rather rambling initial thoughts. I am, by nature, a bit of an iconoclast. However even I know it is counterproductive to go around smashing everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 If you look around, there are plenty of threads where staff have been mocked and lampooned (often very cleverly). They're a little hard to find now because there are so very many more serious discussions going on, but they are there. Especially from the old days when there was not so much activity and we were all bored Staff are just like anyone else - catch them on a good day and they'll laugh harder than anyone else, catch them on a bad day and they'll eat your brains with a spoon. Now get in that kitchen and make me some pie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 ...They're a little hard to find now because there are so very many more serious discussions going on' date=' but they are there. Especially from the old days when there was not so much activity and we were all bored ...[/quote'] thank you both. those were interesting comments gcol you lay the issues out in a thoughtful and tactful way. sayonara, your post makes me wish you were around more (I do not go as far back and don't have a clear memory of that period) maybe we could right now be laughing more, but are temporarily suffering from timidity or lack of wit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timo Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Illegal to Laugh at Staff---Yes or No? what do you think about this? Should we have a poll? Should we have a debate? Or is it a non-issue. For me it´s a non-issue. Why should there be / is there a difference between an admin and a non-admin? Can you treat someone with kindness and respect and at the same time laugh at them? At least I´m trying to do so quite often in the physics forum. Suppose I or some other staff (some supermoderator or local expert or the like) makes of their own volition a pompous statement that seems ridiculous to you. Suppose you cant think of any reasonable response but laughter----it seems too silly to argue with. What should you do? I´m not sure what I should do but I would do something like this: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=226349&postcount=16 http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=216732&postcount=11 (I´d like to point out that in the first case IIRC we were simply talking about two different things and sorting it out would have been a mess which hadn´t given rise to much new insight. In the 2nd case, Dudde indeed did PM me and we had the problem cleared very quickly and easily.) Or to say it simple: If something seems not worth discussing, don´t discuss it. In the end, it boils down to this: http://www.darkfire.net/~mrb/images/retarded.jpg (Hint: Above picture is not about disabled persons but about arguing in internet forums so unless given a good reason -feel free to PM me- I consider "that´s so offensive"-comments as political correctness hypocriticism). EDIT: @Martin: On 2nd thought it might be that I didn´t exactly meet the topic you had in mind here. As usually, I have a hard time understanding what you were trying to say/ask/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 Hi Atheist, I dont have time to follow your links. have to go for now. But I'm glad you replied because in the past I think your reactions are very sensible and fair. So I "agree in advance" to the extent possible. what is on my mind is a hypothetical where A does not intend to ATTACK B. But B has said something (maybe a little stupid) and FEELS attacked. Then, because it is an axiom that the moderator should not be attacked, he says to himself "A is attacking me" and he feels RIGHTEOUS ANGER, so he hits A in some way. Comes down heavy on him. so then A gets angry and becomes more biting and it escalates. I remember Severian said something very fair about an ex-poster I won't name. Severian said on one occasion I remember that the guy DIDNT START ATTACKING he only responded when B (the expert or whatever) was sharp with him. Basically in this instance it wasnt laughter, it was just where A says "you know actually you are wrong about that" and B is upset by this and FEELS as if attacked, so he replies sharply and then it starts. There is this righteous anger that people get when they think they are not supposed to be challenged or contradicted, and it nevertheless happens. the problem with laughter is that it can easily provoke righteous anger and lead to heavy repressive stuff. (and actually the more funny the more irritating it can be) another worry I have is about EROSION. erosion of the base of smart amusing people who like controversy (for me a discussion board is not an AGREEMENT MACHINE intended to produce a lot of agreement with the prevailing ideas, but more the opposite---just my personal taste) I'm spending too much time thinking about this this morning. I will check your links out when I get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 ... On 2nd thought it might be that I didn´t exactly meet the topic you had in mind here. As usually, I have a hard time understanding what you were trying to say/ask/whatever. I think it is not off topic! In this area I think a thoughtful reaction based on your own experience is what DEFINES the topic, or redirects it into some better channel (general discussion is probably different from science discussion in that way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutZ Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 It's very different on the Internet then having a conversation in reality. It's hard to express tone. I for example am a bit of a smart arse, and I am very saracastic, but in a light, non-mean way. A moderator might not know that by just reading what I type, so he/she would have to know me more personally. If it was a group of friends in a social situation then it might be worth getting to know the people that tag along that you dont know. The internet is more like a huge part though, and getting to know everyone is a bit difficult. So I usually refraint from personal comments in general. On the other hand I find it totally humourous how most of you are pure scientists at heart, which I probably am not. So when I read some of the posts it quite funny when you talk about non-science matter. Like the post above me ( sorry martin ) with the A's and B's for variables. I might say something like "making a standard model of ethics are we?" (bad example, but I can't personally make an arbitary good comment on command) I don' think I would get more insultive then that. Others though find the internet sort of a refugee where they can say whatever they want, they want to make slightly mean comments, because the real world is like that, but it's safer to do. So really I don't see a problem, if I annoy a Moderator or Member, I hope they could comment on it at the moment, or privately later. I am not here to piss off anyone, or hurt anyones feelings, and I think thats true for a few others, I think the Mods will generally know who isn't sincere and I am sure that warnings are given out so there is time to make it right, and for those who don't they are at the mercy of the Adminstration team. They are like every other member but that also counts themselves in, so if you affend them your just going to get banned quicker than if you do it to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I for example am a bit of a smart arse I suppose it is only fair that some part of you is smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecoli Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Depends if you laughing with them or at them, and if they can laugh at themselves or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcol Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Depends if you laughing with them or at them, and if they can laugh at themselves or not. I already covered that, post #2. Either give credit, or think of something new. Laughing with you, not at you of course. A first test of the new enlightenment, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 For me it´s a non-issue. Why should there be / is there a difference between an admin and a non-admin? I agree with that... I'd also like to think that the staff and posters are mature enough to be able to laugh and not feel offended. Laughing at each other really helps to build an online community... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 If you look around' date=' there are plenty of threads where staff have been mocked and lampooned (often very cleverly). They're a little hard to find now because there are so very many more serious discussions going on, but they are there. [/quote'] I would love to see some of those threads! Could you or anyone provide a link or two? One has to know where to look. I'm afraid doing a search on [laughter] or [staff jokes] is not going to fish up anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 what is on my mind is a hypothetical where A does not intend to ATTACK B.But B has said something (maybe a little stupid) and FEELS attacked. Then' date=' because it is an axiom that the moderator should not be attacked, he says to himself "A is attacking me" and he feels RIGHTEOUS ANGER, so he hits A in some way. Comes down heavy on him. so then A gets angry and becomes more biting and it escalates. [/quote'] Is it fair to assume you are talking about posts where opinion or interpretation is at the forefront? Because on the science boards, correcting misplaced facts should not ever be cause for such a situation; it's usually straightforward to show someone that they are in error. 'Not admitting those errors'/'acting as if attacked' is usually reserved for the "alternative theory" crowd. However, I've noticed a much different tenor on the philosophy/political boards, where the division between opinion, interpretation of events and facts gets muddled. And challenging someone's statement, and the ensuing response, is much different if you are disagreeing with an opinion or disagreeing with a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 /me points and laughs at swansont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 I suppose it is only fair that some[/b'] part of you is smart. Point for Severian (I was afraid no one noticed, amid the general solemnity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum Unquestionably! You are absolutely correct about that! /me points and laughs at swonsont why did Yourda say that rude thing? Yourda, mind your manners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecoli Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I already covered that' date=' post #2. Either give credit, or think of something new.[/quote'] can't give credit to something I didn't read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcol Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 can't give credit to something I didn't read Does Martin know not all staff carefully read and consider everything before posting? Well, that shines a new light on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecoli Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Does Martin know not all staff carefully read and consider everything before posting? Well' date=' that shines a new light on this topic.[/quote'] psst... I'm not staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 why did Yourda say that rude thing? Yourda, mind your manners! why not? It`s hardly like he`s offended anyone, as there`s no such User as swOnsont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 My sense of humor can be measured in Planck lengths and I will ban anyone who mocks me. I put the rant in tyrant and I'm going to draw moustaches on the Fermi posters Martin hung on the walls of the Staff Lounge for even suggesting this. I also smashed gcol's iconoclast so now he'll have to take the bus to work. As for the rest of you: You're on my list, mister! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutZ Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I suppose it is only fair that some[/b'] part of you is smart. ....*sniffle*.... Well I guess even that parts questionable. P.S. Your going down! You think you can out-wit me? I am un-out-wittable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 why not?It`s hardly like he`s offended anyone' date=' as there`s no such User as swOnsont [/quote'] Thanks all, YT included, for a fine set of comments on this thread! Quite a few issues have been raised and discussed. there doesnt seem (at least right now) that there is much disagreement! Maybe I am forgetting someone, but I don't see even enough disagreement to make a poll about. If I were trying to think up a poll it might be say Resolved, we should insist that Sayonara show up more. yes or no. Resolved, we should appoint Yourda by acclamation as the official ADJUDICATOR OF UNRESPECT my experience is that he is an expert on the subject of UNrespect (as opposed to DISrespect) and has been exquisitely unrespectful to me personally on several occasions (almost making me lose my temper) so who could be better? He seems to understand the fine line. what I mean is that like at homeplate when the dust settles after a slide there is someone who knows whether the runner was "safe" (the joke was funny) or "out" (the joke was, unfortunately for you, not funny). there is a difference between LACK OF DEFERENCE and coarse rudeness. somethings you might say, if I feel angry, I believe it is my problem. otherthings I would consider out of line on your part Yes, I dont want to put Yourda on a pedestal there are other people who are good at this too, and understand it just as well, but anyway he seems to know how to show LACK OF DEFERENCE WITHOUT BEING ACTUALLY INSULTING. We need to cultivate this. Yourda, the next time I see someone being insufferable I shall consult you! will you be willing to advise me, by virtue of your expertise as regards being insufferable? ============== OK, enough time spent on this thread. Thanks to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 A hundred points to Phi for All (which I just now saw) this thread is almost too funny to leave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now